The Rate of Union memberships and the middle class

NavyJack

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I grew up with my grandparents. My grandpa worked at a factory in Fort Worth- i forget the name- and was a member of the AFL-CIO. Been a member since 1966, when he started working there. He knew that- though he wont agree with them all the time- he will have a good wage, healthcare, time off for his family, pension if he worked there for so many years, and other little perks along the way. But recently Unions have been receiving a bad rep, being blamed for the current economic downturn. Though they account around 10% of the population nationwide, the number gets smaller in the sunbelt and other states not in the "rust belt". Union Members Summary

Also, as union membership decreases, so doesnt the middle class share of the economy. Union Members Summary
So, if unions are so bad as the people of Wisconsin, New Jersey, Texas, South Carolina, and Michigan believe than why, why is that when the union membership declines, the middle class declines too?
 

Perados

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I grew up with my grandparents. My grandpa worked at a factory in Fort Worth- i forget the name- and was a member of the AFL-CIO. Been a member since 1966, when he started working there. He knew that- though he wont agree with them all the time- he will have a good wage, healthcare, time off for his family, pension if he worked there for so many years, and other little perks along the way. But recently Unions have been receiving a bad rep, being blamed for the current economic downturn. Though they account around 10% of the population nationwide, the number gets smaller in the sunbelt and other states not in the "rust belt". Union Members Summary

Also, as union membership decreases, so doesnt the middle class share of the economy. Union Members Summary
So, if unions are so bad as the people of Wisconsin, New Jersey, Texas, South Carolina, and Michigan believe than why, why is that when the union membership declines, the middle class declines too?
the question is, is there a real link between both developments, or is it just a fake relation.
and if so, you have to know who influence whom. also, who is a member?
if mainly middle class people are members, it would be plausible that the memberships are shrinking, if the middle class does.
OR
should the members notice, that a union isnt helpful anymore to make it in the middle class (or stay there). could this be another reason, why both is diminishing

but beig a member of an union or not, has nearly no influence on your salary.
between 2001 and 2011 the salary of union members and non-members increased by around 33%. even after 2008 american workers had an increase of 8% within 3 years. - but the question is, would be the increase of income still that high, if there would be no labor union

as seen here: http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet


while inflation was 25% between 2001 and 2011, and only 5% between 2008 - 2011
as seen here: ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/special.requests/cpi/cpiai.txt
 
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redneckgymrat

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Precisely. Just because both graphs trend downwards, it doesn't guarantee a causal relationship.

The Pastafarians have had fun with this one, by pointing out the "obvious" correlation between the decline of piracy on the high seas, and the increase in average global temperature. Obviously, the two are connected, in an inverse relationship, and pirates help keep the environment in check.

I enjoy the Pastafarians...especially on "talk like a pirate" day.
 

NavyJack

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Precisely. Just because both graphs trend downwards, it doesn't guarantee a causal relationship.

The Pastafarians have had fun with this one, by pointing out the "obvious" correlation between the decline of piracy on the high seas, and the increase in average global temperature. Obviously, the two are connected, in an inverse relationship, and pirates help keep the environment in check.

I enjoy the Pastafarians...especially on "talk like a pirate" day.

But don't you find it odd that once Reagan became president and busted up unions and allowed states to rewrite laws for "Right to Work" which is basically "Right to Work for less" that union membership began to decline. And that by the 1990's the middle class income was declining
 

dude_007

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Yeah, kinda like how Bush tax cuts and the invasion of Iraq against the will of the rest of the world is "curious" but not causal of the downgrading of America?
 

Perados

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Yeah, kinda like how Bush tax cuts and the invasion of Iraq against the will of the rest of the world is "curious" but not causal of the downgrading of America?
no one sayd so...

its about middle class / union members.
not presidential desitions / middle class
 

mallak

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Yes watch Bill Moyers any weekend and there will always be some economist such as Stiglitz or someone else tying the fall of the middle class to the crushing of unions. That's why all the companies prefer to go to China because the Chinese unions are even weaker than the American ones and you also don't have to worry about pesky environmental regulations as much
 
D

deleted15807

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^ LOVE Bill Moyers. His guests are the most intelligent guests bar none. American companies love China because yes they can pretty much do anything they want. And no pesky regulations to get in the way. Just pure greed at work.
 

azbjbilly

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I grew up with my grandparents. My grandpa worked at a factory in Fort Worth- i forget the name- and was a member of the AFL-CIO. Been a member since 1966, when he started working there. He knew that- though he wont agree with them all the time- he will have a good wage, healthcare, time off for his family, pension if he worked there for so many years, and other little perks along the way. But recently Unions have been receiving a bad rep, being blamed for the current economic downturn. Though they account around 10% of the population nationwide, the number gets smaller in the sunbelt and other states not in the "rust belt". Union Members Summary

Also, as union membership decreases, so doesnt the middle class share of the economy. Union Members Summary
So, if unions are so bad as the people of Wisconsin, New Jersey, Texas, South Carolina, and Michigan believe than why, why is that when the union membership declines, the middle class declines too?

Unions are not bad. People in this country are unbelievably, mind-numbingly STUPID. As Union membership has declined, so have wages.

Wages today are stuck at 1980 levels. Unions brought so many good things like overtime, 40 hour week, paid vacations, paid holidays, health care, etc.

That's all going away now as we devolve into a third world country. If we had a strong union presence today people wouldn't be working 60 hours a week (but only paid for 40) or on call 24/7 without compensation.

It's called fascism: the merger of state and business leadership coupled with an ideology of belligerent nationalism. You won't find that definition around anymore.

In France and other European countries (oh my god! Socialists!), the government and business fear unions. When unions go on strike there, things shut down. Here? We just double down on our knees and fellate our corporate masters.

I can't wait for the resident trolls to chime in with their AEI/Heritage foundation talking points. Just ignore the reich wingers. Arguing with them is like jock itch: very irritating.
 

Redwyvre

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Unions are not bad. People in this country are unbelievably, mind-numbingly STUPID. As Union membership has declined, so have wages.

Wages today are stuck at 1980 levels. Unions brought so many good things like overtime, 40 hour week, paid vacations, paid holidays, health care, etc.

That's all going away now as we devolve into a third world country. If we had a strong union presence today people wouldn't be working 60 hours a week (but only paid for 40) or on call 24/7 without compensation.

It's called fascism: the merger of state and business leadership coupled with an ideology of belligerent nationalism. You won't find that definition around anymore.

In France and other European countries (oh my god! Socialists!), the government and business fear unions. When unions go on strike there, things shut down. Here? We just double down on our knees and fellate our corporate masters.

I can't wait for the resident trolls to chime in with their AEI/Heritage foundation talking points. Just ignore the reich wingers. Arguing with them is like jock itch: very irritating.


This makes sense to me. American society is aggressively phasing out its middle class, its unions, its employer/government backed health-care programs and pension plans. The owner/migrant labor business model is becoming the "New Deal". There really isn't such a thing as job security and the employee will be expected to pay for health insurance, vacation time, and a retirement plan out of their own pocket. Seems like nearly everyone is fine with this arrangement. Oh Well.
 

Klingsor

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A question, How many of you have worked where a union was involved? Not read about it but actually experienced it.

Related question: How many of you have worked in a time before unions existed? Not read about it but actually experienced it?

Well, OK . . . read about it, then. :smile:
 

AtomicMouse1950

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There is a voting proposition here in California called Prop 32. It eliminates Union involvement in politics no matter the level..But it allows further political involvement by corporations and their big $ interests. The demonizing of the Unions and the dismantling of same continues. Citizens United has just entered California politics. Where does it end?
 

OhWiseOne

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Related question: How many of you have worked in a time before unions existed? Not read about it but actually experienced it?

Well, OK . . . read about it, then. :smile:
I live in the current not the past. Good job avoiding the real world of today. :biggrin1:
 

tamati

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sure living in the now is key.
but,
failing to look forward can cause one to fall over a cliff.
and ignoring the past can destroy everyone's ability to "live in the moment". - for good.
 

dandelion

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But don't you find it odd that once Reagan became president and busted up unions and allowed states to rewrite laws for "Right to Work" which is basically "Right to Work for less" that union membership began to decline. And that by the 1990's the middle class income was declining

Unions can be good or bad. I hope everyone here would agree that the natural inclination of every employer is to pay as little as possible. Obviously, because at the end of the day, that money is coming out of their pocket. This is a fight over who gets the profit from making something. Should it go to the owner of the factory or the people who are spending all their time actually making the things which get sold? The answer has to be some and some. A union is just a way for the workers to organise and get their view across. if they are too dominant, they can take too much money and the company suffers because it has no money to buy new plant, and if the union is too weak then all the people of the country suffer, because they are not getting a fair share for their hard work.

Economically, the country will also suffer, because for the company to grow someone must have money to buy what it makes. If you do not pay your workers enough, then they have no money to buy the goods being made! Money is just a fancy way of organising barter. I work in a collective making shoes, and I give you a pair. You work at growing wheat and you give me some. If we both stop working, no one gets any shoes and no one has any wheat to eat. The system must be in balance or it cannot work effectively. having people unemployed is just the same as everyone throwing away something else they might have had, if those people had, say, been busy making chairs then we would all have something to sit on instead of the floor.

The trouble is, this frequently becomes a fight between bosses and unions. If unions demand too much, especially if they demand things like overmanning, then companies WILL go bust, or move abroad because they have no choice. Overmanning is exactly the same as unemployment as far as the efficiency of the economy is concerned.

The inconvenient problem with the modern world economy is that the system in place now was designed to favour developed countries, and the US has been first amongst them for some time. But the rules of the game have shifted. Some of the other countries have been beating the US at the foreign trade game (not just beating the US!) Meanwhile, the factory owner class has been conspiring with both local and foreign governments to maximise their profits, at the expense of national or employee profits. Politicians represent the people who got them elected (normally not the voters!) Doubtful anyone is interested in the nation's interest, never mind the citizens.

If the economic theory which says workers must have big enough wages so they can afford to buy the goods they make is right, then obviously, if their wages are falling they cannot buy so much, business will suffer and EVERYONE will be worse off, including the middle class, whether these are the same people as the working class or different. If wealth is concentrating in the hands of the rich, then obviously it must also be coming away from the others, both the middle and working class. A failure of unions would allow more money to go out of circulation and collect with the rich, so it can never get into the hands of the middle class either. The problem is not per se that the workers are suffering, but that the rich are sitting on a bigger and bigger pile of gold.

WHich is not to say that gold amassing in the hands of the Chinese government is not also an issue, but from whatever remains within the US more is concentrating with the rich.

The only possible solution is to take the money away from the rich. So maybe union power, or national boycotts of certain goods, or the most obvious solution....TAX THE RICH! And, ironically, they probably wouldnt even notice, because a well functioning economy generates growth for everyone, and new fancy consumer goods to make us all happy...including the rich.
 
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Unions can be good or bad....

I normally disagree with many of your views; but I think you did a very good job of breaking this one down in a very unbiased and objective manner.
 
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