halcyondays
Worshipped Member
So is Richard Dawkins. I remember reading The Selfish Gene in high school back in the 1970s. It inspired me to a career in science.
The religion and atheism thread
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So is Richard Dawkins. I remember reading The Selfish Gene in high school back in the 1970s. It inspired me to a career in science.
See aren88's post. He feels bad for people like me and feels I'm delusional. Wouldn't trust a Christian doctor or pilot. Before people know what I believe, I hear a lot of "people who believe in God are dumb". Apparently, I blend in quite well and am assumed to be atheist because I'm really smart, educated and a scientist. There's a lot of hilarious back pedalling when they find out the truth.
The thing is, I'm not embarrassed or hurt by atheists. Believe what you want - just shut the hell up about it. Atheists are a little like vegans - many just HAVE to share their opinion.
I am embarrassed and hurt by the behaviour of people who claim to be Christian. Anyone full of hate and judgement is not playing by the "book". By definition, being Chistian is to aspire to be Christ like. The only people he truly got angry with were those who were judgemental and the super religious, who hid behind the word of religious law to prove how good they were. Sound familiar?
Anyhow, I'm not a church goer and I'm not religious, but I am a believer. I do the best I can. I support others in their belief systems. I think the act of believing is important. Is there really a God? Maybe, maybe not. Is there a Buddha, Allah, or Muhammad? Maybe, maybe not. But for me having God has changed my life. It doesn't have to change anyone else's. I have chosen my belief system freely and I try to do good with it. Not always successful, but I try.
That is the most and probably the last I'll ever say about my beliefs on this site. Thank you for being respectful about it.
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We all exist here members of a online community that at its core shares the belief in non discrimination, non judgement based on sexual lifestyle or beliefs. Yet I see posters making comment how their non beliefs in religion, somehow make them superior to those who have adopted a certain belief, or religious calling
A few words come to mind from the book of Matthew 7-1 and 7 -2
Judge not Least Ye be judged
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged,
A few words come to mind from the book of Matthew 7-1 and 7 -2
Judge not Least Ye be judged
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged,
halcyondays
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@LaFemme -
I've heard people make the vegans comparison before. Who knows, maybe I provoke this type of reaction somehow. I realize you were being lighthearted, but I'd reason that talking about one's spiritual life (or lack of same) is actually a little like talking about one's sex life. It's a taboo subject for probably largely different reasons, but in both cases it's possibly healthier to be more open to talking about it; the real problems usually arise when a coercive or bigoted voice enters the discussion.
Many atheists feel that we are under-represented in politics, as well as in some other aspects of public life. This might go some way toward explaining the 'opinionated atheist' phenomenon you mention. It's part of a fundamental need to be more visible, much like any minority group. Viewed through that lens I think it's an understandable impulse, although not one I personally find myself strongly motivated by. And that's not to say that it should be accompanied with disrespectful language, obviously.
The way I see it, of the many contrivances and manipulations perpetuated by politicians, exaggerating or fabricating religious belief for the sake of winning votes is one of the least egregious. I care more about a politician's ability to govern according to secular principles, and I don't really care which building he or she might visit at the weekend, or what kind of magical underwear they may or may not be wearing. This is also why, in many of the ways that matter, I would prefer to view nonbelievers and religious moderates as natural allies.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, anyway. I appreciate that you'd rather not continue to talk about this publicly.
I've heard people make the vegans comparison before. Who knows, maybe I provoke this type of reaction somehow. I realize you were being lighthearted, but I'd reason that talking about one's spiritual life (or lack of same) is actually a little like talking about one's sex life. It's a taboo subject for probably largely different reasons, but in both cases it's possibly healthier to be more open to talking about it; the real problems usually arise when a coercive or bigoted voice enters the discussion.
Many atheists feel that we are under-represented in politics, as well as in some other aspects of public life. This might go some way toward explaining the 'opinionated atheist' phenomenon you mention. It's part of a fundamental need to be more visible, much like any minority group. Viewed through that lens I think it's an understandable impulse, although not one I personally find myself strongly motivated by. And that's not to say that it should be accompanied with disrespectful language, obviously.
The way I see it, of the many contrivances and manipulations perpetuated by politicians, exaggerating or fabricating religious belief for the sake of winning votes is one of the least egregious. I care more about a politician's ability to govern according to secular principles, and I don't really care which building he or she might visit at the weekend, or what kind of magical underwear they may or may not be wearing. This is also why, in many of the ways that matter, I would prefer to view nonbelievers and religious moderates as natural allies.
Thank you for sharing your perspective, anyway. I appreciate that you'd rather not continue to talk about this publicly.
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I think the paragraph which follows on from the one you quoted probably answers your question.
halcyondays
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No. Not when Jesus is the most hate-filled and judgmental of all. No one comes to the father except by him and he'll toss you into the lake of fire for all eternity if you don't.
Jesus-meek-and-mild. Right.
Turn on the tube. There's a handful of religious stations broadcasting 24/7. The radio dial is full of them. Every week there are Bible-thumpers of one sect or another knocking on my door. Drive down the street. There's a church every block or two. On the quad at every public university and on many public squares the street preachers hold forth. Then there's the personal--friends and family and acquaintances who have the temerity to remind me that they're praying for me hoping I'll change before it's too late.
Atheists don't do this. We're not the ones who need to shut up about it.
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Maybe I feel less strongly living here in Britain.
Religious TV and radio programming is slightly less prominent here, and very much less politicized; it's mostly there just to facilitate worship and only really guilty of passive proselytizing. Not that I'm a fan. I have no particular disagreement with your rather terse but accurate condemnation of the cruelty of New Testament theology. On the other hand, even the American televangelists, for all their bluster and social regressiveness, are relatively benign compared with the extraordinary state-sponsored systemic bigotry and graphic, bloodthirsty propaganda commonplace in the media in large parts of the Islamic world (Iran's Press TV and Saudi state television come to mind). If you're a Christopher Hitchens fan, you're already aware of all of this. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right; I'm just trying to give some perspective.
Where I live, I don't generally view the very existence of local places of worship as any encroachment upon me at all. I actually enjoy the architecture of many of the holy buildings in my city. Although, in my old apartment in East London, I used to live around the corner from a private Sharia court which, I'm not ashamed to admit, really did give me the creeps. It was across the road from a church and a gurdwara, which were decidedly less threatening.
As for the personal -- pretty much all of my close friends, and all of my immediate family are nonbelievers. So again, I can't really relate, although anybody who deals with this issue on a regular basis has my sympathy.
My point was that -- without wishing to put words in anybody's mouth -- judging by what she's said, I don't get the impression that LaFemme would excuse the kind of religious proselytizing you would likely object to. If I have a problem with anything she said above, it's the line about "the behaviour of people who claim to be Christian", which definitely smacks of 'No True Scotsman'. But I would like to think that most modern, liberal religious moderates have more sense than to have much patience with the Pat Robertsons of this world.
I might agree with you that there is a degree of cognitive dissonance in such a position, but I can live with it.
Religious TV and radio programming is slightly less prominent here, and very much less politicized; it's mostly there just to facilitate worship and only really guilty of passive proselytizing. Not that I'm a fan. I have no particular disagreement with your rather terse but accurate condemnation of the cruelty of New Testament theology. On the other hand, even the American televangelists, for all their bluster and social regressiveness, are relatively benign compared with the extraordinary state-sponsored systemic bigotry and graphic, bloodthirsty propaganda commonplace in the media in large parts of the Islamic world (Iran's Press TV and Saudi state television come to mind). If you're a Christopher Hitchens fan, you're already aware of all of this. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right; I'm just trying to give some perspective.
Where I live, I don't generally view the very existence of local places of worship as any encroachment upon me at all. I actually enjoy the architecture of many of the holy buildings in my city. Although, in my old apartment in East London, I used to live around the corner from a private Sharia court which, I'm not ashamed to admit, really did give me the creeps. It was across the road from a church and a gurdwara, which were decidedly less threatening.
As for the personal -- pretty much all of my close friends, and all of my immediate family are nonbelievers. So again, I can't really relate, although anybody who deals with this issue on a regular basis has my sympathy.
My point was that -- without wishing to put words in anybody's mouth -- judging by what she's said, I don't get the impression that LaFemme would excuse the kind of religious proselytizing you would likely object to. If I have a problem with anything she said above, it's the line about "the behaviour of people who claim to be Christian", which definitely smacks of 'No True Scotsman'. But I would like to think that most modern, liberal religious moderates have more sense than to have much patience with the Pat Robertsons of this world.
I might agree with you that there is a degree of cognitive dissonance in such a position, but I can live with it.
Life would be much better if we lived in a functioning society
I think the really unintelligent people are the ones who believe they are the top of the food chain and there's nothing above them. They are the smartest being in the universe because they cannot imagine in their little meat brains of anything smarter.
I'm sure ants believe the exact same thing.
See aren88's post. He feels bad for people like me and feels I'm delusional. Wouldn't trust a Christian doctor or pilot. Before people know what I believe, I hear a lot of "people who believe in God are dumb". Apparently, I blend in quite well and am assumed to be atheist because I'm really smart, educated and a scientist. There's a lot of hilarious back pedalling when they find out the truth.
The thing is, I'm not embarrassed or hurt by atheists. Believe what you want - just shut the hell up about it. Atheists are a little like vegans - many just HAVE to share their opinion.
I am embarrassed and hurt by the behaviour of people who claim to be Christian. Anyone full of hate and judgement is not playing by the "book". By definition, being Chistian is to aspire to be Christ like. The only people he truly got angry with were those who were judgemental and the super religious, who hid behind the word of religious law to prove how good they were. Sound familiar?
Anyhow, I'm not a church goer and I'm not religious, but I am a believer. I do the best I can. I support others in their belief systems. I think the act of believing is important. Is there really a God? Maybe, maybe not. Is there a Buddha, Allah, or Muhammad? Maybe, maybe not. But for me having God has changed my life. It doesn't have to change anyone else's. I have chosen my belief system freely and I try to do good with it. Not always successful, but I try.
That is the most and probably the last I'll ever say about my beliefs on this site. Thank you for being respectful about it.
I think the really unintelligent people are the ones who believe they are the top of the food chain and there's nothing above them. They are the smartest being in the universe because they cannot imagine in their little meat brains of anything smarter.
I'm sure ants believe the exact same thing.
halcyondays
Worshipped Member
I remember Sister Mary Joan in religion class saying, "You're like an ant compared to god."
To which I replied, "Well he DID make us in his image."
I got detention and demerits for that one!
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I recently happened upon this quote: "The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubt while the stupid people are full of confidence."
You could say that if they are metaphors then how much of the bible is one big metaphor? Is any of it actually true?
When religious people talk about that type of situation they have to open themselves up to the idea that all of it could be one fictitious story. I know a number of people that believe in the Adam and Eve story and Noah's Ark.
I find it interesting the differences in attitude between the US and the UK. In the US you are at a huge disadvantage if you are running for presidency and say you are an atheist. Yet in the UK we are getting less and less religious to the point that religion is much more ridiculed than at any point in time.
I still believe religion should not be given some automatic respect. We are not a 'christian country' we are a country of cultures that tolerate each other (not respect each other, most people don't I find).
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Are demerits like 'Satan points' in a Catholic school?I remember Sister Mary Joan in religion class saying, "You're like an ant compared to god."
To which I replied, "Well he DID make us in his image."
I got detention and demerits for that one!
halcyondays
Worshipped Member
Are demerits like 'Satan points' in a Catholic school?
haha! something like that... demerits were score-keeping... five got you suspended a day... each additional demerit was another day... ten got you expelled... after-school detention was immediate punishment... in the moment i'm sure some of the teachers thought the kids were a bunch of little devils.
That needs to be engraved somewhere, and by somewhere I mean every polling place in the United States and most other countries as well.
I thought it was quite telling when Ted Cruz told the Republicans to "vote their consciences" and got booed.
alcor972
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what I like in the bible... is the dramatic intensity maximum... the tension... resulting in the choice several characters had had to make...
the way with which these dramas are presented is sublime to me... and helps me to better understand what it is to be a human...
.................
first drama...
eve and the snake... near the tree of knowledge in eden...
this is a terrible confrontation between two spirits... about the nature of god... which doesn't participate to this extraordinary debate... in the non less extraordinary environment of the terrestrial paradise... showing its uncomparable beauty to eve's eye...
... and a controversial subject is brought to her by one of the splendid creatures of this paradise...
this is why the drama and the intrigue is so intense I think... the controversy in the middle of a place plenty of beauty... and this dialogue between eve and the snake is just incredible to me... and touches me relentlessly...
..................
second drama...
pilate and his wife... during the good friday in jerusalem...
pilate had to decide if jesus must be condemned to death... but a tension appeared in his mind... as he gradually hesitated about the decision to take...
then... his wife sent him a message... advising him to set jesus free because she had much suffered in dreams because of him...
this message created the tension maximum in the intrigue... because two ideas were confronting in pilate's mind...
and it was the same thing with eve...
...................
in fact... contrary to an immediate point of view which would give from a believer the image of someone who is plenty of certitudes... these two dramas show that a human brain is submitted to strong tensions... and maybe the most important is not to focus on the choice made under the pressure of these tensions as it often seems the case to me... but on the whole mechanism of these tensions... exhibiting sometimes terrible contrasts... and showing the beauty in an incredible unexpected way...
in other words... the bible seems telling me... the result and the choice you make are not important by themselves... what is important is how you manage the reflection in your brain...
ok...
the way with which these dramas are presented is sublime to me... and helps me to better understand what it is to be a human...
.................
first drama...
eve and the snake... near the tree of knowledge in eden...
this is a terrible confrontation between two spirits... about the nature of god... which doesn't participate to this extraordinary debate... in the non less extraordinary environment of the terrestrial paradise... showing its uncomparable beauty to eve's eye...
... and a controversial subject is brought to her by one of the splendid creatures of this paradise...
this is why the drama and the intrigue is so intense I think... the controversy in the middle of a place plenty of beauty... and this dialogue between eve and the snake is just incredible to me... and touches me relentlessly...
..................
second drama...
pilate and his wife... during the good friday in jerusalem...
pilate had to decide if jesus must be condemned to death... but a tension appeared in his mind... as he gradually hesitated about the decision to take...
then... his wife sent him a message... advising him to set jesus free because she had much suffered in dreams because of him...
this message created the tension maximum in the intrigue... because two ideas were confronting in pilate's mind...
and it was the same thing with eve...
...................
in fact... contrary to an immediate point of view which would give from a believer the image of someone who is plenty of certitudes... these two dramas show that a human brain is submitted to strong tensions... and maybe the most important is not to focus on the choice made under the pressure of these tensions as it often seems the case to me... but on the whole mechanism of these tensions... exhibiting sometimes terrible contrasts... and showing the beauty in an incredible unexpected way...
in other words... the bible seems telling me... the result and the choice you make are not important by themselves... what is important is how you manage the reflection in your brain...
ok...
