The Religous Right

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by madame_zora, Jul 13, 2005.

  1. madame_zora

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    Okay, well I thought I'd get some response from some of you about how you feel the religous right represents your thoughts. I'd really like to hear from those who do identify themselves as Christians, and if you are not a regular poster, I'd really like to hear your thoughts. I got a flyer about it and it got me thinking, so here it is (re-typed by me, so please excuse any typos).


    The religous right claims to speak for every person of faith, but do they speak for you?

    "I really believe that the pagans, the abortionists, the feminists and the gays and lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle.....I point the finger in their face and say "you helped make this happen."
    -Jerry Falwell, speaking about the Sept. 11 terror
    attacks, The 700 Club

    "You say you're suppoed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist."
    -Pat Robertson, The 700 Club

    "The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians"
    -Pat Robertson, The Washington Post

    "Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."
    -Randall Terry, Indiana News Sentinel

    "Women are less equipped physically to "stay on course" in the brawling areas of business, commerce, industry, and the professions."
    -Pat Buchanan, San Fransisco Chronicle






    Now obviously, these quotes are particularly incindiary, but when these "men of faith" are what the world sees when they think of Christianity, my question is, do they represent how YOU feel? Thanks in advance.
     
  2. iggy

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    they represent what i feel? NO...

    i do not know if what is their denomination but christianity is diverse, so many denominations.

    I personally dont have an idea who they are, i respect their belief (but i do not believe them). im not sure bout 700 club but i see them quite often in tv here in the philippines.

    i am roman catholic btw.
     
  3. PonyPete

    PonyPete New Member

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    I could say that these men should remember that there is supposed to a separation of church and state, but when you really look at what they're saying, they're not mixing the two. There's no "church" in their arguments. Their statements are political, pure and simple and they're trying to disguise their politics as religion. Christianity -- that is, real Christianity -- is not about controlling people and that's what those pseudo-religious blowhards are advocating. I don't trust any so-called religious leader who professes to speak for all Christians. They don't know my heart and they don't bear any responsibility for my soul. I can make my own moral decisions and don't need to have my hope for "salvation" mandated by the government. Few things are as immoral as trying to control and judge other people's morals. I can't presume to judge them and predict what awaits them in the Hereafter, but I can only think that Hell has a very special place reserved for their kind.
     
  4. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    I know this question is asked in good faith, but I can't help but wonder how easily this question could put someone of faith on the defensive. I'm not of very strong faith personally, but I'm pretty sure that these "outliers," if you will, are just bad apples in the world of the religious. I know that religion isn't synonymous with fanaticism, just like liberalism isn't synonymous with mental illness. (Thanks for the inspiration, Savage.)

    Do these bad apples represent how some religious people feel around here and elsewhere? Maybe. Maybe not. All I'm qualified to ask for is a bit of openness. I'll be the first to admit that I don't fully understand people who have a strong belief in God. I'm still content calling Him the casuality that can't quite be explained -- you know, like that "order" in the universe that makes some things happen beyond our comprehension. That's as far as I have been. I feel good sticking to that position, but I wouldn't turn someone down who wanted to share what they believe or possibly teach me things I don't claim to know.
     
  5. madame_zora

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    Thanks for the input so far guys. Dee, I know they seem fanatical, and believe it or not, I wasn't trying to just start an argument. My point was that each of the men quoted are men identifed as religous and moral leaders with huge followings, so I wondered if their opinions are really as unusual as I might think.

    Do carry on.
     
  6. BruceSter

    BruceSter New Member

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    Hi Madame,

    I'm no religious person, you can say I'm a non-believer, which seems to put me on these guys' hit list. But other than that, these statements are complete nonsense, the bullshit is overflowing once again. Why are gays and lesbians responsible for 9/11? I don't see any link there. And as the committed other of a successful businesswoman, I could screw the last quotation about women not being equipped bla bla too.

    Usually when I find such flyers in my mailbox, they go like straight to the trash can.

    Bruce
     
  7. Freddie53

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    Jana,

    You knew that I wouldn't let this pass without a comment. Thanks for quoting these opportunists and theocratic men. There are two problems here. One is opportunism which Hitler, Bush, Clinton and every highly successful politician knows how to use events and create the "situation to make gain in their goal whether it be in finance, politcis, power and uh oh, religion. Right or wrong we give tacit support to opportunism. However, its is inexcusible in religion. Religion is about being in some sort of communion or relation with God or Creator as you understand him, her or it to be. It is absolutely tragic to real people of faith when an opportunist masgurades as a preacher, and makes statements designed to gain political power. It totally twists the whole point of religion.

    About the theocratic men. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights that was ratified by every state coming into the union, is really based on the ancient Greek and Roman Republic, NOT ROMAN EMPIRE, models. While I sometimes think the courts have gone too far in some cases of restricting public displays of religion, it is clear that our nation is a nonsectarian nation. By that I mean the first act of Congress after the Consitution was ratified was to select a chaplain for the Congress. We still have a Chaplain. And we provide Chaplains for our military. But these Chaplains can be of any religion and by law must minister to all religions. If a Catholic soldier is dying and the Chaplain is Protestant, the Chaplain will do the rites or something acceptable to the Catholics which used to be called the last rites.
    The Chaplains are schooled to be pluralistic. Those that aren't willing to do this don't serve as chaplains.

    The problem is that these particular preachers and their followers want to establish a theocracy. What this would be is that the laws would be written to conform to the beliefs of those particular Christians. To hell with the rest of Chrstianity, Muslims, Jews, agnostics, Buddhists and atheists. No real religious rights in a theocracy. All have to believe what the state religoin teaches and that is what some of these people want. In defense of SOME, not all, of them, they truly believe that if you don't believe just like they do, then you will go to hell and burn forever and ever. And I appreciate their desire to keep me in air conditino eternal quarters, but they don't have a right to make those decisions for me. Granted I could be wrong and I suppose I will get to meet several here on them forum in hell, but it is my choice to believe or not to believe. In fact, I believe strongly that the New Testament when read as one document leans toward that freedom. All thorughout the New Testament, there are references to man having a choice whether to worship God or not to worship God and that man has a free will given by God. Now if God has chosen to give each of us a free will, then why would some mortal human here on earth think that they had the power to take that free moral choice of what to believe or not to believe away from us?

    To the non Christians reading my remarks, Jana asks for the response of what other Chrsitians thougtht. I realize that some of the above rationale doesn't completely answer this for you except for the part where I believe in total freedom of worship as long as it doesn't interfere with another person's freedom to worship or not worship. My freedom ends where your freedom starts. Let me make it clear, that I personally believe that all must come into communion with God as you understand God to be. I believe that God ALONE is the judge of whether a person was in comunication with the supreme being. In the New Testament there are many references that God alone is the jduge, not other people here on earth. So could an athiest go to heaven. Absolutely, why? A person is to be in communion with God as that person understands God to be. A rose by any other name is still a rose. God is love, kindess, compassion, honesty, integrity, unselfishness ane the lsit goes on. A person with those atributes is certainly in communion witht the essence of God. And before someone goes and quotes something that shows God to be something other than good, remmeber humans played a big role in writing the Bible. It was in humans handwriting that the Bible came to be. The ancient Hebrews simply didnt' understand God in their ancient culture as we understand God to be.

    Now comes the good juicy part. I have been nice up to now in talking about the quotes listed below. The gloves are coming off!

    Freddie
    This is abolutely totally and completely unmittigated bull shit. Jerry "Falldown" is as fake as a three dollar bill. Freddie would rather spend the rest of eternity with athiests of good repute such as honesty and respect then spend the day with this guy. Falwell alias Jerry Faldown is a complete fraud, an embarassment to all true Chrsitians. However, many of his followers are good and kind people who are just ignorant. In the words of Jesus, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." Those well meaning people have it wrong. Faldwell knows damn well that he is not preaching what the New Testament says.

    It is asinine to even suggest that God committed murder on September 11 to punish the alternative life style. Get serious. If God were to weild that kind of power, wouldn't it make since to wipe out the alternative lifestyle folks and not innocent victims on a plane." This teology will not hold water when compared to the whole text of the New Testament. Remember that if it is in the Old Testament then according to most Christians, it must be reaffrimed in the New Testament to be applicable in today's world.


    Freddie
    For those who don't know I happen to be one of those horrible people that Pat Robertson is referring to here. I am a Methodist. The antiChrist according ot the fundies is either the devil or an agent of the devil. In just a three line quote, PAt Roberson has condemned all Episcopalians, Presgyrtewrians and Methodists to a hell where we can all worship the anti Christ or the devil or Satan. I am not gonig to judge Pat's eternal future. He may really believe what he says he is believing. I dont' know what God is going to do with him. I just read though in three sentences that Pat Roberson has condmened me to an enternal hell of fire and brimstone for being a Methodist. My TV has a romote on it. I have slowed down in recent years, but I can get that guy off my TV screen quickly. I haven't listen to a word he has said in years. And if his church is the only one available, I will stay at home. I have no desire to have any assciation with this guy.

    Freddie
    Some more bull shit from Pat. I was not aware that my Grandmother and MOther were socialists, left their husbands, killed their chidlren, practiced witchcraft, and were lesbians. These two ladies were in their day leaders in being equal with men. education helped a lot. My Grandmother was a business woman of her own right. My mother a professional teacher rated as one of the best by every principal she worked with. both of these ladies were equals in their marriages. Had their own bank accounts, voted the way they wanted to. And the lists goes on. Bothe my grandmother and mother believed that a person begain to live as a person at birth when taking their first breath. Christians believe in a soul that goes to heaven. Both of these ladies believed that babies who were stillborn never lived in the sense of having a soul. Therefore neither of them had a problem with abortion. My mother is still living and I can assure you, she has aboslutely no problem with abortion if that is the best alternative.

    Pat Roberson doesn't believe in equal rights for woman. He is one of rhose who believe that women should keep silent in the church. (The experts say that that one passage about woman keeping silent in the church was a small group of ladies in one particular church. There are references to several woman pastors and deaconesses throughout the Bible. Moses sister was a speaker to the people.

    Freddie
    I have more respect for dear old Randall Terry. At least he tells us up front what his agenda is. "Goal is a Christian nation." We will have to amend the Constitution first. "We have a biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country." What!!!!! George Washington, Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. aren't good enough for you? Randall Terry is talking about open warfare to destroy or run all who disagree with him out of the country? Where in the New Testament, the Christian section of the Bible, does he read this mandate? I haven't found it. Don't beieve it is there. Yeah I respect this guy all right. A person is a fool not to respect his enemy and dear old Randall has declared war on half the people in this country. Only make that more than half. I am sure that Episcopalians, Presbyterians and Methodists are not going to past muster with this guy. I got dibs on the beautiful stain glass down at the Methodist Church when Randall shuts it down.

    We are going to have to find a "New World:" Uninhabited but a paradise to live in. With Jana and Freddie as co-captains we will ferry millions to safety in a new world where the ideals of the American Republic are revived to live once again.

    Freddie

    I was not aware that Pat buchanana was a physician. The latest statistics I have read show that women do tend to be more emotional about "small" things, but that women have domonstrated a definite ability to handle major emotional problems pver the long haul. Something happens men tend to be stoical, women will cry. But then the women have dealth with it and then are equiped to handle the problem or problems ahead. Men appear stronger because they are stoical or show no emotion. In reality, men quite often are collapseing inside.

    Certainly in general men are taller, heavier. and stroner in strength than women. But in my case I am on disabiity and I knwo many a man on disabiity or age 50 or over who is not as strong as many women in thier twenties. So if physical sstrength is needed, then we check the physical strength of the person, not the person's crortch to determine who is better able to to the assign physical tasks. As far as the business world, physical sterngth is not relevant to the situation. Another example of Pat Buchanan talking out of a part of his body, but it not the mouth he is talking through.


    <!--QuoteBegin-madame_zora
    @Jul 13 2005, 09:35 PM


    Now obviously, these quotes are particularly incindiary, but when these "men of faith" are what the world sees when they think of Christianity, my question is, do they represent how YOU feel? Thanks in advance.
    [post=328958]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/quote]
    Jana,

    Do you have a clue what I am going to say here? Probably so. First, we bastardize the term "men of faith" when we use the term in conjunction with these guys.

    Second, no we don&#39;t come close to believing the same thing.

    Third, I don&#39;t believe that when we take all people who profess to be Christians and give an unbiased survey without itentifying who is surveying that these frauds would get anywhere close to half of self professing Christians to agree with them. I said self professoing Christians, I didn&#39;t say church members. There is a major differnce. There are many self professed Christians who choose to not be involved in an organized group of Christians and if all they hear is crap like these quotes, I wuoldn&#39;t want to be a member of an organized group either.

    This is a treatice more than a post. It is though the heart of my faith and who I am. and Jana opened the door.

    I will close though with the Biblical request to not judge. It is refering to jduging the soul in the hereafter. It says for us not to do that. I try hard not to do that. If I come across judgemental, I really tried to be honest. If that shows a weakness on my part, maybe in time I can learn to feel better about these men who to me have hijacked my religion and tried to kick me out of my own religion. Yeah, we do get testy in certain situations. It is human. We all fail at times.

    Freddie is a contributing columnist for the LPSG Magazine. His father was a preacher. He has served as muscian in churches for 47 years starting at the age of seven. He joins Jana and Jacinto, internationally known columnists in writing regular columns for this esteemed magazine. It does seem that the photography section of the magazine may, hum, er, be removed by the Puritans who have been risen from the dead and are now running the country.
     
  8. Pecker

    Pecker Retired Moderator
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    Jana, I am known to be among the most conservative posters on the board. You don&#39;t hear a lot from me on these topics because of deep-seated defense mechanisms that I was fortunate to form as an abused child.

    I am a man of faith. That doesn&#39;t mean I&#39;ve lived my life in such a way as to be able to point the finger of judgement at others - it means rather that I love my God and I&#39;m hurt when others don&#39;t.

    Among those are the so-called &#39;shepherds&#39; that you quoted. That&#39;s right - I don&#39;t believe that those people truly love God in the way He meant them to. They&#39;ve taken on the onerous responsibility of leading God&#39;s children back to Him but they&#39;ve strayed, too, and they may very well be enticing innocents down the road of good intentions that winds its way to hell. Their greatest shortfall, in my view, is that they have taken on the mantle of political controversy to make themselves rich and famous.

    Give me a religious leader who not only will help me return to God but who will emulate Him ....

    and leave the politics to the politicians.
     
  9. robertomuro

    robertomuro New Member

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    Well said. I believe in the Popes views on religion and ethics. When it comes to anything else I am not required to nor do I normally agree with anything he says. I am Roman Catholic BTW.
     
  10. Imported

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    orionsword57: I&#39;ve written about this before, but the folks MZ quoted in her initiating post can only fall back on obscure passages in the bible, while TOTALLY IGNORING THE WORDS ATTRIBUTED TO CHRIST&#33; Find me a passage attributed to him that chastises gays, women, etc... but... need I say more. Whoever referred to Jerry and the Pats as opportunists was spot on, and as someone who believes that Jesus was a way-shower, will wait until they "do unto others..." before giving them anything more than a Bronx cheer.

    Why can&#39;t one find a book in religious book stores that only has the words of Christ(I did find one web site some time back) in it? That really disturbs me.
     
  11. BobLeeSwagger

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    My observation has been that the most morally upright people I&#39;ve met invariably seem to be the ones that aren&#39;t in your face about it. They don&#39;t try to force their beliefs on others or go out of their way to make their opinions heard. They know they&#39;re not perfect, but live their lives in the best way they know how and hope that others will too. They know that the more public you are about your beliefs, the greater chance there is for hypocrisy.

    Having met several such people over the years, I&#39;m convinced that they are a silent majority of sorts. And that&#39;s much more comforting than seeing the rabble-rousers get face time again.
     
  12. Steve26

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    Yesterday&#39;s Boston Globe carried the following very succinct and relevant comment. A Massachusetts congressman was responding to a brouhaha that has erupted locally over comments by notoriously sanctimonious Sen. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, blaming the Boston area&#39;s "liberalism" for a sex abuse scandal involving local priests.

    Representative Martin T. Meehan, Democrat of Lowell, said, &#39;&#39;There&#39;s not much you can say about someone who claims to have read the Bible cover to cover and came away from it thinking it encourages hatred for fellow human beings."
     
  13. B_DoubleMeatWhopper

    B_DoubleMeatWhopper New Member

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    Excuse me while I stray a bit offcourse here. It is well-known that I respect the Pope as the religious leader of my Church. I had hope for Benedict XVI, but I must say that he is turning out to be something of a disappointment. Yesterday I heard some of the most ridiculous drivel coming from him: he has condemned the Harry Potter books because they glamourise sorcery and seduce children to the dark arts&#33; Ummm ... excuse me? :wow: All the evil in the world today and he&#39;s worried about works of juvenile fiction intended as innocent entertainment? Who really believes that Harry Potter is a stepping stone to Satanism or necromancy? I guess Gandalf escapes criticism because Tolkien&#39;s devotion to Catholicism is well-known. What&#39;s the Pope&#39;s next target ... Bewitched? We all know what a menace that Endora can be&#33; :eyes:
     
  14. Freddie53

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    Excuse me while I stray a bit offcourse here. It is well-known that I respect the Pope as the religious leader of my Church. I had hope for Benedict XVI, but I must say that he is turning out to be something of a disappointment. Yesterday I heard some of the most ridiculous drivel coming from him: he has condemned the Harry Potter books because they glamourise sorcery and seduce children to the dark arts&#33; Ummm ... excuse me? :wow: All the evil in the world today and he&#39;s worried about works of juvenile fiction intended as innocent entertainment? Who really believes that Harry Potter is a stepping stone to Satanism or necromancy? I guess Gandalf escapes criticism because Tolkien&#39;s devotion to Catholicism is well-known. What&#39;s the Pope&#39;s next target ... Bewitched? We all know what a menace that Endora can be&#33; :eyes:
    [post=329130]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]
     
  15. blackwood

    blackwood New Member

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    ----------------------------

    WHAT I ABSOLUTELY HATE&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; are the satements of anyone Left or Right who use lump to gether claims, Like "All Americans Want", "All America would agree", "The polls indicate that the American people".

    We don&#39;t have to agree, and we don&#39;t and trying to justify anything with the "All" word pisses me off.

    I DO NOT WANT my life managed by anyone christian person. I agree with the "Do onto other as..."

    Period

    blackwood
     
  16. Freddie53

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    [post=329143]Quoted post[/post]​

    [/b][/quote]
    I want to point out that true Christians aren&#39;t part of a sect. Jacinto can revere the position of the Pope and yet can vocally disagree with the Pope. I am the same way with our presiding bishop.

    True religous people of any religion have a consience and while affected by their religion still have control over their own thinking,

    I dont&#39; know a more knowledgable person about Roman Catholocism than Jacinto. I don&#39;t know of a more true practicing Catholic than Jacinto. Yet he has the freedom to disagree with the Pope.

    You won&#39;t find that in most reliigous right organizations. Everyone must march to the drum of the "fearless leader."
     
  17. GottaBigOne

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    The ironic thing is that the people who are responsible for the 9/11 attacks are DEEPLY RELIGIOUS.
     
  18. blackwood

    blackwood New Member

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    ------------------------

    Another thought experfience, SINCE NONE OF THESE BIGOTS speak for ME the bottom line is that I have viewed a great deal of HATE from the Godly individuals. I am not directing to this to anyone but those who infringe INTO my business. Thanl GODfor Christians, but damn the mouthy Evangelicals such as list and Bush and Rove and on and on.


    blackwood
     
  19. Shelby

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    The ironic thing is that the people who are responsible for the 9/11 attacks are DEEPLY RELIGIOUS.
    [post=329151]Quoted post[/post]​
    [/b][/quote]


    Thanks for that GBO.

    I was going to point out that, ironically, the left&#39;s seeming belief that all christians are flaming fundies like the one&#39;s quoted, along with their knee jerk defense of muslims as &#39;not all bad&#39; probably went a long way towards pushing moderate undecided red staters to vote for Dubya.

    btw - I don&#39;t consider myself to be a christian.
     
  20. Lex

    Lex
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    Pecker--thanks for that post. We all know you to be on eof the more conservative members of the bopard, and although we may not all agree on politica or social matters, I (as a liberal-to-moderate) can say that I agree 1000% with the sentiment of your post.

    The distortion of the bible that I have seen and heard has so disenfransdhiced me from my own church, it&#39;s scary. Its affirming to hear that you can be staunchly conservative and still SANE. ;)
     
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