The result of Discrimination in College

[spartalee]

Ok I just got back from my hearing this morning (was moved to 7a.m.) and I must say I have lost all hope in people's common sense. When the hearing started the dean asked me if before we started I had anyhting to add and I said yes I wish to press counter charges of discrimination against large people. he said ok. Then it started to go down hill, first he presented his side of the story with his b/f testifying that he in fact felt threatened in my presence. and he said he over heard many derogitory remarks to gay men in general (complete lie) so after they make all their allagations it comes to me. I had my friend from the rehabilitation staff (who is gay) state he has never heard me make any derogitory remarks nor has he ever felt threatened by me. which the my ex-roomie countered and said he worked with me so he would not be threatenedby me and he is around athletes all day. then my head coach, position coach, and 9 of my friends on the O line(offensive line) all stated they have never heard me make any derogitory comments nor have I ever shown aggression towards anyone outside the football field. I also had written statements from friends back home and my parents. so after this I brought his rule violations to their attention (ironically they said there was no proof of this, kinda like their is no proof I threatened him) anyway after all of this the 5 members and the dean made us all leave while they discussed it. so after maybe 10 or 15min we were called back in....and they found me....guilty....yep guilty of sexual discrimination. Which is a load of shit I never did anything at all I would'nt be so damn pissed if I was in fact guilty but to be wrongly accused? fuck that man. but it gets better(for them) also due to my size and athletic standing there was reson to believe that I did in fact show aggression to him but since their is no evidence I will not be held guilty. Still not the end...My counter claim was denied on the fact that my size compared to his shows he could not intimidate me, therby making it impossible to show reasonable discrimination....(I dont understand that but whatever) yea so basically I got royaly screwed in all this....now for my punishment. I was given a six month probation (beginning with our game saturday) this means I cant participate in any organized college sport events for this time period(effectivly making me miss 5 total games this season(freshman season) and next (sophmore season) I also have to write an apology to my ex-roomie, his parents, and the to the head of the gay organiztion on campus(he is a member).....which again is total bullshit. but I will write this letter but since they did not give paramiters to the letter I am going to apologize to them for not dragging the hearing out longer or something stupid like that because I REFUSE to apologize for something I did not do! also my father has his lawyers suing my old roomie for slander and harrassment. anyway the college decided to keep this a private matter so I was charged under NCAA not a formal court so it wont show on a police record or something...if that sort of thing is even included in a police record? the only good side to all of this is I have my own room now same building though. but I am going to sleep now and pray that people regain their common sense......

 

[Paul Vincent]

Paragraphs.

 

[D_Martin van Burden]

I'm really interested in hearing responses to this, since the original thread became a little charged up.

I want to think better than this, but I believe you were guilty before you were proven innocent. Your witnesses and your character came under inappropriate scrutiny. It was two against one in verbiage; that's what it came down to. I don't believe that you did it. At least, from what I've written, I can't tell you've done anything.

I think you have a legal and personal right to appeal, getting as much legal ground support as you can. While I certainly wouldn't have sympathy for you if you were either lying about your actions in telling us your story or really truly got some kicks harrassing gay guys, I'm even more appalled that someone innocent can go punished for something they didn't do.

To be sure, I would keep the apology letter short and to the point. Don't use it as an opportunity for backlash. Save that for the courtroom to be.

Good luck.

 

[D_Sheffield Thongbynder]

This is absolutely appalling! I would consult an attorney ASAP.

 

[capt. nemo]

I think you have a legal and personal right to appeal, getting as much legal ground support as you can. While I certainly wouldn't have sympathy for you if you were either lying about your actions in telling us your story or really truly got some kicks harrassing gay guys, I'm even more appalled that someone innocent can go punished for something they didn't do.

To be sure, I would keep the apology letter short and to the point. Don't use it as an opportunity for backlash. Save that for the courtroom to be.

Good luck.

Courtroom? I think this guy has gotten enough bad advice. Especially when he's quite capable of doing the wrong thing on his own...

To begin with, and assuming that everying OP says is the whole truth, why didn't he look for a new room for himself if he simply wasn't getting along with his roommate? Going to the RA and asking that his roomie be removed was tantamount to turning his roomie in, getting him in trouble. OP has presented himself all along as a perfectly harmless and well-meaning dude up against a wicked witch, but I think that this fact alone warrants the suspicion that there's more to the story than we have heard. From the start, it seems like this was a game of personal attack, throwing down gloves, and one-upmanship. Way to go when you have a pretty minor problem to solve.

Think I'm wrong? When given the opportunity to speak, he announces that he wants to file counter-charges for discrimination against big people! UGH.

It sounds like OP started it, he played his hand really badly, and he lost.

 

[D_Sheffield Thongbynder]

He's being denied due process.

 

[Sklar]

what was the original thread?

 

[ray j johnson jr]

its a pc world, especially in college

 

[snoozan]

i simply don't buy the entire story.

 

[HotBulge]

Your situation is quite distressing. It seems as though your ex-roommate is playing the "gay" card as some Blacks will inappropriately play the "Black" card of victimization. (I am both Black and bi).

I've seen this happen before: a college administrator trumping up charges to justify their existence. To aid your understanding of how a dean could have arrived at this decision despite the facts and the character witnesses, you have to understand that some college administrators - dean of students in particular - are political lame ducks within the university system. They tend to be failed academics or failed university administrators who need to demonstrate that they are taking "action". Intimidation, homohobic sentiment, etc - these are convenient factors to trump up and use your situation as an example. Some of these college administrators believe that they are correcting the ills of society by these demonstrations. Instead, they are justifying their positions in the eyes of the faculty senate or other vice presidents of the university.

You will also notice how the institution wants to keep matters private, ostensibly for your future record. If you believe strongly in your defense, though, you and your parents should bring it up before the public. You have nothing to lose, and it may force the university to re-examine the merits of yoru case. It may even be in your interest to prepare a brief statement to the public asserting that (1) you are not a homophobe (2) you are not violent and (3) you merely asked your former roommate to stop brining his "interests". Assuming that there is no private room to retreat to, that's a very reasonable request.

You and your parents should fight this. Even if it doesn't appear on a public record, it will carry on with you for your remaining undergraduate days. It could also appear when you are trying to apply for graduate or professional school.

 

[joyboytoy79]

Much of this simply doesn't make any logical sense. Is there more to this than you are letting on, or did you just pick a HORRIBLE school to attend?

 

[dreamer20]

Then it started to go down hill, first he presented his side of the story with his b/f testifying that he in fact felt threatened in my presence. and he said he over heard many derogatory remarks to gay men in general...

so after this I brought his rule violations to their attention (ironically they said there was no proof of this, ...

When I have faced the difficult decision of turning in someone for improper business practices I made sure that I had the evidence needed to back my claims. If you had reported your roomates rule violation(s) while the two of the men were asleep/present in the room then your roomates violations would be recorded by the RA. They would have been caught in the act. Why you didn't take this step mystifies me. Now you are in a his word against mine situation with him having more witnesses than you. Of course it was easy enough for him to deny your claims. I wish you had sought advise from counsel before this hearing. I suspect the hearing could have been avoided if you had. Do not inflame this situtation in the wording of your letters of apology. Seek the approval of legal counsel regarding the letters and this matter.

 

[dannymawg]

Paragraphs.

Have to second this, spartalee. Might be a stream of consciousness thing on your part - hit the enter key every once in a while :biggrin1:

what was the original thread?

discrimination in college

 

[Matthew]

I agree with those who say hire a lawyer. And whoever gave you the advice to do this:

When the hearing started the dean asked me if before we started I had anyhting to add and I said yes I wish to press counter charges of discrimination against large people. he said ok.

-- you should never listen to anything else they tell you.

 

[fortiesfun]

I've seen this happen before: a college administrator trumping up charges to justify their existence. To aid your understanding of how a dean could have arrived at this decision despite the facts and the character witnesses, you have to understand that some college administrators - dean of students in particular - are political lame ducks within the university system. They tend to be failed academics or failed university administrators who need to demonstrate that they are taking "action". Intimidation, homohobic sentiment, etc - these are convenient factors to trump up and use your situation as an example. Some of these college administrators believe that they are correcting the ills of society by these demonstrations. Instead, they are justifying their positions in the eyes of the faculty senate or other vice presidents of the university.

As long as we are trading anecdotal evidence, I have to say my experience is exactly the opposite. In any case of a suspension that will have consequences to a player in an NAIA or NCAA league, the decision will be thoroughly scrutinzed both on campus and by league officials off campus. A Dean of Students is apt to be remarkably reticent to take the steps that have been taken here unless the case is absolutely clear cut.

You will also notice how the institution wants to keep matters private, ostensibly for your future record. If you believe strongly in your defense, though, you and your parents should bring it up before the public. You have nothing to lose, and it may force the university to re-examine the merits of yoru case. It may even be in your interest to prepare a brief statement to the public asserting that (1) you are not a homophobe (2) you are not violent and (3) you merely asked your former roommate to stop brining his "interests". Assuming that there is no private room to retreat to, that's a very reasonable request.

I cannot possibly image a worse step for any student to take than this one. It is, in fact, in the interest of students to keep university judicial procedures private. He has a great deal to lose, especially if there is more to the case than he told us or than he can appreciate from his subjective vantage point. Appealing to the sympathies of the press rarely works out well for student athletes.

Spartalee, if you are inclined to fight this, there is usually a source of free legal advice available on your campus, especially if there is a law school. Get some good advice before you take any further steps.

 

[HotBulge]

Not quite: college environments do promote social agendas these days, and keeping affairs private within the realm of the university gives them complete control over their domain. In a case where a student's conduct is questionable, then the best advice is to keep it private and to be thankful that no public record has been made of it. If the facts that we have been given are true, however, the university disciplinary committee is ignoring any defense that Spartalee may have given. In this situation, if he seeks an outside lawyer and the university maintains its position, he's only lost some time and money. If the university feels threatened by litigation and exposure, however, then there is room for renegotiation. He has much more to gain by pursuing his defense rather than remaining silent. The facts of the case as they are told here aren't rooted in hate and antagonism, so his defense is credible.

As long as we are trading anecdotal evidence, I have to say my experience is exactly the opposite. In any case of a suspension that will have consequences to a player in an NAIA or NCAA league, the decision will be thoroughly scrutinzed both on campus and by league officials off campus. A Dean of Students is apt to be remarkably reticent to take the steps that have been taken here unless the case is absolutely clear cut.

I cannot possibly image a worse step for any student to take than this one. It is, in fact, in the interest of students to keep university judicial procedures private. He has a great deal to lose, especially if there is more to the case than he told us or than he can appreciate from his subjective vantage point. Appealing to the sympathies of the press rarely works out well for student athletes.

Spartalee, if you are inclined to fight this, there is usually a source of free legal advice available on your campus, especially if there is a law school. Get some good advice before you take any further steps.

 

[invisibleman]

Ok I just got back from my hearing this morning (was moved to 7a.m.) and I must say I have lost all hope in people's common sense. When the hearing started the dean asked me if before we started I had anyhting to add and I said yes I wish to press counter charges of discrimination against large people. he said ok. Then it started to go down hill, first he presented his side of the story with his b/f testifying that he in fact felt threatened in my presence. and he said he over heard many derogitory remarks to gay men in general (complete lie) so after they make all their allagations it comes to me. I had my friend from the rehabilitation staff (who is gay) state he has never heard me make any derogitory remarks nor has he ever felt threatened by me. which the my ex-roomie countered and said he worked with me so he would not be threatenedby me and he is around athletes all day. then my head coach, position coach, and 9 of my friends on the O line(offensive line) all stated they have never heard me make any derogitory comments nor have I ever shown aggression towards anyone outside the football field. I also had written statements from friends back home and my parents. so after this I brought his rule violations to their attention (ironically they said there was no proof of this, kinda like their is no proof I threatened him) anyway after all of this the 5 members and the dean made us all leave while they discussed it. so after maybe 10 or 15min we were called back in....and they found me....guilty....yep guilty of sexual discrimination. Which is a load of shit I never did anything at all I would'nt be so damn pissed if I was in fact guilty but to be wrongly accused? fuck that man. but it gets better(for them) also due to my size and athletic standing there was reson to believe that I did in fact show aggression to him but since their is no evidence I will not be held guilty. Still not the end...My counter claim was denied on the fact that my size compared to his shows he could not intimidate me, therby making it impossible to show reasonable discrimination....(I dont understand that but whatever) yea so basically I got royaly screwed in all this....now for my punishment. I was given a six month probation (beginning with our game saturday) this means I cant participate in any organized college sport events for this time period(effectivly making me miss 5 total games this season(freshman season) and next (sophmore season) I also have to write an apology to my ex-roomie, his parents, and the to the head of the gay organiztion on campus(he is a member).....which again is total bullshit. but I will write this letter but since they did not give paramiters to the letter I am going to apologize to them for not dragging the hearing out longer or something stupid like that because I REFUSE to apologize for something I did not do! also my father has his lawyers suing my old roomie for slander and harrassment. anyway the college decided to keep this a private matter so I was charged under NCAA not a formal court so it wont show on a police record or something...if that sort of thing is even included in a police record? the only good side to all of this is I have my own room now same building though. but I am going to sleep now and pray that people regain their common sense......

You had better call your lawyers. Appeal. Appeal. Appeal.
You have a right to an appeal. What was their evidence? Their burden of proof?

 

[spartalee]

i simply don't buy the entire story.

I'm sorry you feel that way...

To begin with, and assuming that everying OP says is the whole truth, why didn't he look for a new room for himself if he simply wasn't getting along with his roommate? Going to the RA and asking that his roomie be removed was tantamount to turning his roomie in, getting him in trouble. OP has presented himself all along as a perfectly harmless and well-meaning dude up against a wicked witch, but I think that this fact alone warrants the suspicion that there's more to the story than we have heard. From the start, it seems like this was a game of personal attack, throwing down gloves, and one-upmanship. Way to go when you have a pretty minor problem to solve.

Think I'm wrong? When given the opportunity to speak, he announces that he wants to file counter-charges for discrimination against big people! UGH.

It sounds like OP started it, he played his hand really badly, and he lost.

To this I reply as why should I have to move my stuff to a new room if it was my room to begin with and he broke the rule? seems unfair I have to go through the trouble of moving out and to a new room just because he violated rules and since he did its on him to move since he was the offender also I brought it up to the RA because...the would be what they are there for. and the reason this was hearsd before the board is our college has a no tolerance stance meaning no harassment discrimination or anything of the nature AT ALL. and since I am an athlete whom is registered with the NCAA they had to be present.

Also I in no way instigated anything I gave the guy 3 chances how many more should i have given? and I am not a very confrontational person. and me being the size I am I would be blamed for any altercations if violence were involved so I try to steer clear from it.

Also the only reason I counter suited was because he pressed first what the hell am I suppose to do? all I wanted was for him to move or abide by the rules. either one would work for me and if you read my OP you would see I asked the RA to either move him or talk to him they chose move.

And if you really think I am the one at fault I'm sorry you feel this way. I pray for your common sense aswell.

 

[nwarluvs2jo]

Find out how you can volunteer for one of the events put on by the gay organization on campus. I'm sure they plan something for Diversity week. Then see if you could put in a certain number of hours doing community service, or diversity training. Just placing you on probation and having you write letters is probably one of the worst ways to handle this in my opinion.

Put yourself in their shoes for a moment....they have just decided that you are guilty. As student affairs professionals I would think they would want to TEACH you why it was wrong.

I'm not taking any side in this matter because I haven't heard all the facts, but it sounds like it could have been handled better.

There's my .02

 

[Don Alejo]

I buy the story, especially the part about the Gay guy's actions. (Please note that I am a Gay man.)

It is all too familiar: someone who is oppressed or imagines themself to be oppressed abuses the power available to them because they perceive that is how those who have more power -- in this case straight men or people -- use it against them. He probably also justifies his having sex in front of you -- instead of in his boyfriends private room -- by thinking that it is the same as having to watch heterosexuals be affectionate in public. I imagine that he also thinks that risking ruining your athletic career is justifiable because he has had his life ruined because he is Gay, or that you should be made to bear the suffering for all oppressed Gay men in the past.

In other words he hates himself and he hates the fact that he is Gay.

The more you present yourself as a calm and reasonable person, the more ridiculous he will look. You need to keep your ego in check and accept the fact that shitty things happen sometimes. Just be glad that you don't have to wake up and be him every morning.

I am wondering if another issue here might be how he perceives you. You are a big guy, maybe the kind of guy who beat him up as a kid. You are also in an environment -- the football team -- where you are allowed, and maybe even encouraged, to be agressive. If you are a little hot under the collar about not getting enough sleep, what you think of as being diplomatic may seem scary to him.

At some point apologizing might be in order. You probably need to stress that you have responsibilities and needs as a student and as an athelete, and that sleep is one of them. Hence the curfew in the dorms. You intention was not to hurt or scare him.

At any rate, you need advice on this as you go forward. I am a little surprised that your coaching staff is not helping with this.

This is so similar to the posting about the guy raising his fist to the sexually agressive Gay guy in the shower at the gym. And people wonder why I hate the Gay Ghetto. Idealogies always protect the lowest common denominator.

Don Alejo