The rising of a new antisemitism

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by D_Coyne Toss, Jun 23, 2006.

  1. D_Coyne Toss

    D_Coyne Toss New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,852
    Likes Received:
    12
    This is not politics, nor a too easy solution proposal for troubles that costed hundreds of human lives: it is a cry of pain.

    Antisemitic prejudices never die, not even here in the lpsg. I've been told that Italians are lucky because only 35.000 Jews live here.

    Well, those 35.000 Jews ARE Italians, and are a part of our nation.

    Antisemitism now lives on the Middle East situation, but only morons can think all Jews are criminals because of the war between Israelis and Palestinians.

    First of all, I think nobody there can say to be totally right, as terror isn't the way to solve Palestinian probles, and air strikes are not a proper anser to terror attacks. (easy to say, i know).
    In any event how can we here be so arrogant to say: you are right, you are not, you should forgive and leave in peace?
    How can a mother who lost a son in a terror attack (remember the Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv) forgive the assassins of her son? How can the mother of a child died due to a mistake in an air strike forgive?
    Still, people think they can say Palestinians are right, because Israelis invaded their land (read history better, especially years before 1967), and because they're poorer. But it is too easy.

    Second, not all Israelis are Jews, and not all Jews are Israeli.

    This new antisemitism, as all racisms, is just a proof of ignorance.
     
  2. rhino_horn

    rhino_horn New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Messages:
    350
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    east coast-usa
    also, not all semites are jews...arabs are also descendants of the semitic race.

    jews wanted a state, they stole the land of the palestinians...dont ever start a conversation with a palestinian about this, becuase he will NEVER stop talking.

    palestinians are treated as second class citizens, and they want to be treated fairly; but the israeli's STILL, after 40 years, havent decided how much land they want to take.

    ive heard some very nasty stories about some of the things israeli's have done to palestinians, and you cant help but to get a little angry..but c'est la vie. there's nothing anyone can do. also, israel is a jewish state and it has to worry about where it's jewish citizens will be living, is there anything more racist than that?

    if you treat a man like a dog, its only a matter of time before he starts behaving like one...and thats exactly what the state of israel has done to the palestinian population, they are basically living in the world's largest doghouse...soon to be fenced.

    its a shame, really, to see them practicing what they were taught in ww2.

    *remember the uss liberty on june 6, 1967, where israeli's intentionally attacked her...AND THE LIBERTY WAS ORDERED NOT TO RETURN FIRE!!!! which ultimately led to her captain, upon his return, to write a book detailing the incident!!!!

    its worse now to see that they have the nuclear ability to erase the middle east.
     
  3. dong20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    The grey country
    Never mind the Middle east, I'd say Austria has multiple award winning potential in the Antisemtic oscars.
     
  4. D_alex8

    D_alex8 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    8,602
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    ..but also in the denial Oscars.

    To add but one personal anecdote to the masses of examples of this. A touring exhibition that I was involved with two years ago, relating to the popular-cultural representation of Jews in German-speaking countries during the 1930s and 1940s...passed without incident through Germany, Switzerland and England... however, two days before its scheduled arrival in Austria, the local authorities started to raise "concerns", and before we knew it, they had refused a permit for the exhibition to tour there, since [and I quote]: "the issues raised are not pertinent to the Austrian experience of that time period". :rolleyes:
     
  5. dong20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    The grey country
    Interesting, and of course Waldheim was a misunderstood war hero.:rolleyes:
     
  6. D_Coyne Toss

    D_Coyne Toss New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,852
    Likes Received:
    12
    True

    Vey False, there is an U.N. resolution allowing an Israeli state (not in the occupied lands, this is true).

    Unluckly, partly true...

    true, but what about what palestinian did to israelis?

    wanna talk about REAL radically religious states? in israel, as a christian, i can go to the curch and own my bible and gospel.


     
  7. Dr Rock

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    3,696
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    who lives in the east 'neath the willow tree? Sex
    this is a point worth bearing in mind. the israelis wanna have it all ways, and have made it abundantly clear from the get-go that they're not prepared to EVER give a shit about anyone else. yet they're consistently VERY keen for everyone else to give a shit about THEM - and preferably a lot of money too. i have plenty of jewish friends who would get extremely pissed off if anyone tried to associate or compare them with israelis.

    i personally couldn't care less about judaism as a religion or jews as a "race" or whatever, but i sure as hell won't shed a tear when israel as a nation gets wiped off the map. it was a fucking stupid idea, and the realization of it was even worse.
     
  8. rhino_horn

    rhino_horn New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2006
    Messages:
    350
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    east coast-usa
    i know a few palestinian men, who were forced to flee to the usa after the israeli's invaded, their homes and ancestral lands were simply taken...

    also, look at a map pre 1945, what does it say over present-day israel?

    yeah, i sure would...might wanna start another thread about it though.

    yes, but it IS true. ABOUT iran, i do believe their president is a pacifist, and i do believe he will have a nuclear weapon shortly. israel is holding a gun to the head of the middle east, with its 200+ nuclear arsenal, and sovereign nations dont like feeling threatened. india-pakistan, russia-usa, china-usa--just examples of nuclear states still in the arms race.

    no offense, but i think you've been spoon-fed too much shit; you're supposed to spit that stuff out, its not healthy. take a step back from your opinion and look at the FACTS objectively...palestinians were/are being wronged and are seeking justice, they have every right to do so.

    -truman(was it truman?)
     
  9. davidjh7

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,714
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    seattle
    Isreal as a country was created out of pity and guilt. The holocaust (and yes it DID happen boys and girls) was a hoorible example of how putrid mankind can become. BUt if you CREATE a country under the auspicies of pity and guilt, what the hell do you EXPECT that country to really be, other than a selfish child? On the other hand, nobody knows how to be more ruthless warriers than the Israelis. If all countries trained their militaries like they did, I suspect we all be alot more polite to each other....:rolleyes:
     
  10. D_Sheffield Thongbynder

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    0
    Despite the noble intentions of Israel's creation, I think most of us can agree it was a blunder with the potential not only to create war but also to keep the Mideast in a constant state of dangerous agitation. That is not an anti-semitic concept; it is simply a reality. There is plenty of antisemitism around, though, that has nothing to do with Israel. It seems to me that two separate issues are present here: ethnic discrimination and geopolitical ramifications of policy wrought in the guilt-laden aftermath of WW2. A question: What do you think the situation in the Arabic world would be now if Israel weren't there?
     
  11. davidjh7

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,714
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    seattle
    Given the large number of disparate groups who have hated each other in that region for thousands of years, still fucked up...:banghead2:
     
  12. D_Sheffield Thongbynder

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,061
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed. It's for that reason that I think it can be dangerous thinking to concentrate Mideast policy solely on the notion that it's all Israel's fault. It's doubtful that our policy makers would do that, but I know many citizens who reduce the complexity of that problem to simple anti-Israeli or ant-Palestinian statements.
     
  13. DC_DEEP

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    9,029
    Likes Received:
    12
    The Zionists and the Palestinians are both (not as individuals, but as national groups) terrorists, IMHO. Hmmm, I might as well add the United States to that... What's the difference between "terrorists" and "freedom fighters?" Uh, just simply, it's who is describing them.

    For what it's worth, in my readings of the bible, all mentions of "Palestine" refer to a country, all mentions of "Israel" refer to a person. So which one is the chicken and which one is the egg?
     
  14. chico8

    chico8 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    761
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Chico
    In another thread I had posted some info about an abhorrent hasidic practice whereby mohels literally suck the blood off of a boy's penis after circumcision. I was slammed immediately although after a couple of other posters provided some back up info the poster apologized for his rather vituperous attack.

    What amazes me is how quickly people will slam someone who disagrees with any jewish or Israeli practice as being immediately anti-jewish. I dislike the term anti-semitic because it is way too vague and refers mainly to a group of languages, NOT the jewish religion.

    Certainly, here in the US there is a very vocal minority that is decrying the "attack on christianity" but for the most part it's ok to criticise christian acts or practices if they're barbaric or out of place. Certainly celibacy falls into that category.

    Why is it that judaism has become sacrosanct?

    Personally, I feel that any anti-jewish feeling that may be resurfacing is in response to the totally hands off approach to any criticism of judaism or the state of Israel in the past 60 years. The pendulum always swings back and it's about time IMO. Too many jews and too many fundamentalist christians view themselves as literally above the law for what happened not only during WWII but also in the centuries preceding it.

    It's time that judaism be treated like any other religion; the gloves need to be taken off.
     
  15. dong20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    The grey country
    They were never on. Jews have been a target of scorn the world over for almost as long as they have existed. It's so ingrained into world culture that it's sometimes almost impossible to tell where harmless caricature ends and true anti-semtism begins.

    Between the years 250 BC. and 1948 – a period of 1,700 years Jews experienced more than eighty expulsions from countries in Europe, an average of one expulsion nearly every twenty-one years. Jews were expelled from England, France, Austria, Germany, Lithuania, Spain, Portugal, Bohemia, Moravia and numerous other countries.

    What's the root cause of Anti-Semitism? I don't know for sure, but a strange thing is, that almost without exception, when analysed, 'reasons' given for Anti-Semitism appear to have nothing to do with the fact that Jews are Jewish. A common excuse for Jews being hated is because they are rich; or because they own department stores; or because they are bankers or money-lenders they are Shylocks. These reasons effectively remove Judaism from anti-Semitism by equating it with more traditional types of hatred.

    The roor of Anti-Semitism? I remember studying subject this at school and one theory was explained to me was that it is more basic, as to it's veracity..I'm no expert but I think it has some merit, essentially:

    An individuals claim of superiority really bothers us only to the extent that we believe it's true. For example If someone ugly says to an attractive person "I’m better-looking than you" the response will most likely a shrug of the shoulders or amusement, but there is no threat there.

    On the other hand, a far more attractive person comes up and makes the identical comment, that will be much more likely to raise an angry response. It's simple, one doesn’t really resent someone who says they are superior; one resents people who are superior and say so.

    That is why the hatred of the Jews has been so intense. Christianity, more than other religion, was threatened by the Jewish message; that Jesus was not God. This assumes a fatal flaw in Christianity. The Church understood that if the Jews are right the implication is that Christianity is baseless.

    While other groups denial of Jesus is a a mere disappointment, the Jews denial is intolerable. Jesus came to the Jews; the very group that produced him. Those people who had the most knowledge and authority on this matter, those who represented the last word on religion, were the first to reject Jesus. Thus, Jewish existence invalidates an essential tenet of Christian theology.

    Put all this into a more social context, and over the centuries the end result is evident today:

    "Anti-Semitism is nothing but the antagonistic attitude produced in the non-Jew by the Jewish group. The Jewish group has thrived on oppression and on the antagonism it has forever met in the world" ~ Albert Einstein

    "Oh the Protestants hate the Catholics,and the Catholics hate the Protestants,and the Hindus hate the Moslems and everybody hates the Jews" ~ Tom Lehrer

    "I insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men that any other nation . . . they are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this earth … They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe, and have influenced the affairs of mankind more, and more happily, than any other nation, ancient or modern". John Adams 1808.
     
  16. D_Coyne Toss

    D_Coyne Toss New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,852
    Likes Received:
    12
    More than antisemitism this is disinformation, Anybody who knows a litle bit about Judaism, know there is nothing more abhorrent for Jews than eating or drinking blood.

    The Bible says blood is home to life, and so has not to ne eaten or drinked. Infact ritual Jewish butchering aims to eliminate evry drop of blood from the meat: meat with blood is not kosher and cannot be eaten.
     
  17. Yonatan

    Yonatan New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Messages:
    4
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tel Aviv, Israel
    Wow... it amazes me how much hatred there is, even here. Where to begin? I'm probably the only Israeli member here. I've taken flack for the Palestinian conflict before, especially when I studied at Boston College in the USA. As a result, I've studied in depth both sides of the issue - not just recent events, but all the factors that led to the creation of the state. I wasn't satisfied accepting what I learned in school growing up, and I certainly felt empathy for the Palestinians.

    Before someone rejoices when this country is wiped off the map, consider what Israel has contributed to the world. Most of your computer CPUs were developed in Israel. Israel is at the front edge of high tech as well as agriculture. Drip irrigation, now used world-wide, was invented here. Seedless grapes and watermelons both came from Israel. And we've had several Nobel prize winners. How many Arabs have won Nobel prizes? And just WHAT advances and developments have they offered the world over the centuries?

    The fact remains, that Israel was created out of an AREA - not a country - called Palestine, which never had a government of its own. One hundred years ago, Arab residents of present-day Israel and Jordan considered themselves as part of greater Syria. The area was and had been ruled by the Ottomons for hundreds of years. The term "Palestine" held no attachment to them, in terms of a people, country or even culture.

    Toward the end of the nineteenth century, thousands of Jews fleeing persecutaion in Russia started migrating to what was then known as Palestine. They didn't usurp land, they purchased it. After World War One, the British and French divided up the middle eastern remains of the Ottomon Empire, and Britain took control of Palestine. This included Jordan... In 1917, Lord Balfour of Britain issued a declaration that all of Palestine would be set aside as a homeland for the Jews.

    This was later modified, and the area known as Palestine was cut down to size dramatically, with the creation of the kingdom of Trans-Jordan (now known as Jordan). What was left was supposed to become a homeland for the Jews. But Britain severlely limited immigration to Palestine, even when Jews were desperately trying to flee Europe.

    After WWII, the Palestine situation was to be decided by the UN. What remained of Palestine would be divided up into two states. The resolution passed, and the Jews accepted it. The Arabs rejected it. Thus, when the British mandate expired in May of 1948, the Jewish population of Palestine was left to fend for themselves. Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq attacked from all fronts, intent on driving the Jews into the sea. Yet the Jews were victorious, and won all the land that the UN had set aside for them - and much more, too. If the Palestinians had accepted the UN partion plan in 1947/8, they would have had their homeland then...

    Yes, Israel did push thousands of native Arabs to leave. But, thousands left on their own, too, on poor advice from their leaders. Further, when Israel was created, thousands of Jews were also forced to leave the Arab lands in which they had lived for centuries. I'm not suggesting that one action justifies the other, but perhaps we should just call this point even.

    Then there's the Six Day War. In 1967, the same above-mentioned Arab armies invaded Israel again. The West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula were captured by Israel. What is referred to as the "West Bank" was previously ruled by Jordan, yet prior to 1948, it was not Jordanian land. Jordan only controlled that area for 19 years... Again, if the Arabs hadn't invaded Israel, they would have retained control of those lands. When Egypt and Israel signed a peace agreement in 1979, and returned Sinai, Egypt gladly took it back, but refused to take Gaza. Gee, I wonder why?

    Everything I've mentioned above is factual, and is easily verified. But Palestinian propaganda and revisionist history have been exceptionally effective in making people think otherwise. A great case in point was the recent episode in which Israel was blamed for inadvertently killing a family on the beach. The world condemned Israel for this, yet after a few days, it was proven that Israel had nothing to do with that hit! Check the facts!

    I am not proud of how the Israeli government has handled many issues over the years. In some respects, I am appalled and embarrassed. But survival and security are top priorities. If there is no homeland for the Jews, just where are we supposed to go? There have been Jews here for thousands of years. It's not as if we recently showed up after WWII!

    Look at it this way: If the Arabs laid down their arms there would be no more violence. If the Israelis laid down their arms, there would be no more Israel. Golda Meir once said that there would be no peace in Israel until Arab mothers loved their children more than they hate Israelis...
     
  18. dong20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    The grey country
    I don't believe I see evidence of hate here in the sense you imply, misunderstanding, sure but that's everywhere, starting with me.

    But with respect, it's stereotypical rhetoric like the above that just helps perpetuates the violence and predjudice on both sides. Neither side of the Arab-Israeli conflict can claim the moral high ground, it doesn't exist.

    While I grasp the basics, and Golda Meir was a smart woman, sometimes, from a distance it seems like two bald men squabbling over a comb. Enough already.
     
  19. D_Coyne Toss

    D_Coyne Toss New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    1,852
    Likes Received:
    12
    I am speechless... this is how things have gone, yoanatan. But it is hard to admit.
     
  20. D_alex8

    D_alex8 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2005
    Messages:
    8,602
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Germany
    Statistical data certainly notes that there have been Jews in the area of Palestine for thousands of years. However, only from the 1890s in particular did they constitute a notable proportion of the population (under the tri-fold influence of Zionism, Russian pogroms and fleeing from Nazism/the Holocaust). Jerusalem/Al-Quds stands out as an exception, having been the only city with a Jewish majority since 1896.

    1880 - total population of Palestine 400,000 of which 24,000 were Jews.

    1914 - total population of Palestine 700,000 of which 85,000 to 100,000 were Jews.

    1948 - total population of Palestine 2,000,000 of which 650,000 were Jews.

    Consequently, with minority-rule by a body of people whose presence in the area had grown at disproportionate speed during the space of half a century, it is surely understandable that Palestinian Arabs, Druze and others might perceive themselves as having been 'robbed' of their homeland (defined in terms of where one is born and considers 'home', rather than by any national boundaries --- not least as national boundaries remained something of a liquid concept in the Middle East in general until the early twentieth century anyway) by 'invaders' (i.e. a rapid influx of people from outside, who suddenly snatched control of power).

    In short: I can agree with your argument only in the broadest semantic terms... yes, there have been Jews in the area for millennia, but not as a majority or a significant proportion of the population for many centuries of recent history. Indeed, Israeli historian Arie Morgenstern has written considerably on the subject of pre-Zionist yearning for a Jewish nation in the area of Palestine from the 13th to 19th Centuries AD, while actual Jewish presence in the area was lacking.

    http://www.jafi.org.il/education/culture/dispersion.html

    http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm

    http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm
     
Draft saved Draft deleted