The Roma

[Freddie36]

The ethical codes of EU which says that citizens of member nations can travel freely among EU nations.
---
Not during the transition period as it is the case with the accession of Rumania and Bulgaria.


France has a very poor record in migration flux management. For example it has one of the highest numbers of unskilled immigrants in Europe, which combined to a rather protected labour market breeds social discontent (both among recent immigrants who did not find what they expected, among second generation immigrants and among "ethnic French" who are afraid to be replaced by cheap labour-- in large proportions they are indeed totally or partly sons and daughters of immigrants). This lack of management is combined with fierce so-called security rhetoric on the right, and equally fierce so-called anti-racist rhetoric on the left. There is little honesty in this highly politicised debate. Any account of what is happening there is therefore to be taken with an extra pinch of salt (which anyway is always very much required for analysing international news)...

President Sarkozy is just using the unchecked influx of illegals from new accession countries , and the more visible part of the phenomenon to regain some popularity. Quite ironic since he is supposed to be in charge. Just a usual populist trick, they will round up some people send them off and make a lot of noise. The left is trying to use this unsavoury policy to its advantage by playing the moral card a bit too easily. This is not less populist, the target is just different...

 

[B_crackoff]

You see? having a medical card someplace is a good thing! And any ethnicity can produce criminals.

I lived homeless for a while in my younger days and the most nerve-wracking place to be homeless is somewhere you are not legally entitled to exist.

But in the Roma's case with their entire family!! It's not like they haven't done that since they left India anyway. Legally not existing has it's benefits!

The bloody Spanish are sharp on bureaucracy - but the Roms must be doing well as there are as MLB says, even Tarot readings on cable, & direct buses to Bucharest from Malaga!

HG - the Roma don't want to be part of any society other than their own - generally. Leech resources that they haven't contributed to - certainly.

In an age where everyone's decrying anyform of unique cultural identity, I find it odd that people stick up for bigots like the Roma, who's cultural practices are certainly very grey(!!!),& who do in fact own large tracts of land in Eastern Europe.

Every other ethnic group in Europe is alleged to have died out according to PC propaganda - that makes the Roma not the most persecuted, but most succesful ethnic group in Europe's history, even though they are not European!

In the UK, we've had Romany here for centuries. I saw some last week, still wandering around in horse (well they look like prehistoric, hardy horses at least) drawn, painted caravans.

I've never heard anyone in all my life have a problem with them - not even a whisper of the complaints of begging(Ok, Lucky Heather maybe!) thieving, & child abuse(in all its forms - from lack of education up) that their Eastern European cousins attract.

About 15 years ago however, the eastern cousins exploded into London, particularly around rush hour times, & trawled trains with infants begging. And not even nice begging. Angry faced, silent hatred (well I guess 12 hours on the London Underground won't do anyone's disposition any good!), hand out - "Give!"

I once had a row with a guy on a train after the 3rd Roma in 20 minutes entered the carraige. I looked away - she stabbed me with her finger & said give - I looked at her brand new Pringle jumper & Italian boots, & said " Fuck right off!".

Some rabid, PC guy stood up & started shouting " You don't know her, how dare you say that to her" (though of course begging isn't legal, & I'm sure child labour & social care laws prohibit babies being dragged around working), at which point she stumbed toward him, bumped the baby into him, turned, said "thank you", & got off the train.

My travel companion, known for being suspicious of anything not from Yorkshire, said "better check your wallet mate", & guess what

The irony is - the guy blamed me!

Like an Amish community in the USA, if they want to opt out - fine - but if none of them contribute, why should they receive anything back?

It's a 2 way street. If they don't want to accept even the least cultural practice that isn't theirs -any opposition to them is valid.

And how on Earth are they surviving in France, if they're not working?

(Like a previous poster mentioned, this topic is difficult to stay within the Rules, & I have deliberately had to leave out a lot- it's difficult to talk about Roma without mentioning some pretty unpleasant allegations -however, I'd again point out that these rules seem to be waived when talking about any 1st world country in terms which could be considered derogatory- again I'd like to see one rule for all!)

 

[Bbucko]

(Like a previous poster mentioned, this topic is difficult to stay within the Rules, & I have deliberately had to leave out a lot- it's difficult to talk about Roma without mentioning some pretty unpleasant allegations -however, I'd again point out that these rules seem to be waived when talking about any 1st world country in terms which could be considered derogatory- again I'd like to see one rule for all!)

If you're referring to me in the quote above, my hesitation has nothing to do with the ToS; it's that I'm uncomfortable airing my cultural prejudices in public. This is obviously a scruple we don't share:

Every time I attempt to post a reply to this thread, I find myself in the grips of a cultural prejudice I wouldn't have otherwise believed possible with "enlightened" old me. This is my fourth attempt :redface:

So I'm just gonna say that stereotyping and scapegoating an entire culture and group of people is a Fascist trick and I'll have to sort through my very mixed feelings privately.

As to any criticism I may lob at any "1st world" country, including the US where I'm from, I try and be as specific to individuals as possible, link sources when submitting facts and (at least in the Politics forum) do my best to refrain from personal anecdote unless absolutely essential to a larger point, which again, should always backed by links.

Do you have a link showing that the Roma "do in fact own large tracts of land in Eastern Europe"? That's news to me.

 

[B_crackoff]

:wink:Take your head out of a liberal broadsheet & find it for yourself Bbucko! (though checking out what mayors of Romanian towns say is a start!.

What on Earth would prejudice you to think otherwise?!? Possibly you know of some anti Roma laws that prohibit land ownership?

I hope you're not buying into this racist itinerant, thieving, child selling/abandoning, pickpocketing, sex trafficking, illiterate, penniless stereotype! That would be wrong!

And I know of course, that everyone at LPSG would be happy living next door to anyone of any creed or colour who behaved like that.

You seem very happy airing your cultural prejudices about NeoCons:biggrin1:

Doesn't hate speech in the US cover political belief too? LOL!

I defend your right to say whatever you say however, no matter how much I might disagree.

The fact is, as I'm sure you are aware - it is an impossibility to support the Roma - & be a full on human rights supporter.

But those shades of dark exist in every culture.

I for one, would really like to have someone post the light: the benefits, the good, the spiritual or aspirational side.

Rehashing, redundant persecution claims, as the Left wing media does, doesn't do that. :frown1:

 

[Bbucko]

You've made two big mistakes here, Crackoff: one is based on the assumption that I'm "liberal" with a rigid code of beliefs which you find distasteful. I reject the label because it's inappropriate to me and what I've always espoused both here and IRL.

You've also neglected to supply me with a link to your claim that the Roma "do in fact own large tracts of land in Eastern Europe". If you cannot supply links then you're obviously talking out of your ass, and that means I'm wasting my time with you.

But I really kinda knew that from the get-go: shame on me.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

If you cannot supply links then you're obviously talking out of your ass, and that means I'm wasting my time with you.

But I really kinda knew that from the get-go: shame on me.

I'm holding you to that, Bbucks.
I tried to answer his post twice ... but there was no there there.

What did this mean, for example?

The fact is, as I'm sure you are aware - it is an impossibility to support the Roma - & be a full on human rights supporter.

(It's dangerous to post this, because crackoff may very well respond with some confused typing ... but what will it mean? I used to know what people mean.)

 

[helgaleena]

Even if one Roma owns a palace, that doesn't mean he invites everyone who speaks his dialect, or even everyone in his own family, to live with him. Any ethnic group can spawn a millionaire, or a miser.

Crackoff has has a bad experience with begging Roma and is ready to say that they are all like this. Not cool or balanced. As I said, each locale's tolerance of scavenging tactics will vary. Beggars are no big deal in some cultures and very weird to others (such as my Finland example) and any new settlers or immigrants will have to find by trial and error an acceptable way to live where they land.

 

[Bbucko]

I'm holding you to that, Bbucks.
I tried to answer his post twice ... but there was no there there.

What did this mean, for example?

(It's dangerous to post this, because crackoff may very well respond with some confused typing ... but what will it mean? I used to know what people mean.)

Cracks is safely on my Ignore list, Hh: something I should have done a while back. The situation is now remedied.

Your aside reminded me of how Capote once described the work of the great Jacqueline Susanne.

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Your aside reminded me of how Capote once described the work of the great Jacqueline Susanne.

Bb, not to be pedantic, but I wonder if you meant what Capote said about Jack Kerouac: "That's not writing, it's typing."
Ouch.
Capote had an insult for Susann too. He said she looked like "a truck driver in drag."
I dunno, Bb. Truck drivers are not my thing.
Whaddayu think?

 

[B_crackoff]

You've made two big mistakes here, Crackoff: one is based on the assumption that I'm "liberal" with a rigid code of beliefs which you find distasteful. I reject the label because it's inappropriate to me and what I've always espoused both here and IRL.

You've also neglected to supply me with a link to your claim that the Roma "do in fact own large tracts of land in Eastern Europe". If you cannot supply links then you're obviously talking out of your ass, and that means I'm wasting my time with you.

But I really kinda knew that from the get-go: shame on me.

You are the most typical liberal on the site. You hate labels. Can't get more liberal than that. You never answered any of my queries, & the only link you ever gave me was to a bi-trans -paraplegic BDSM man of the year, or something.

I've stuck up more links on here than on a porn site's browser. I've got 10 to add here, but since you've now closed your mind to evidence & ideas, i'll only give teasers...

Romani Human Rights campaigner leading criminal fraud ring(NB convictions for using children to beg too!)
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Gypsy in £3 million benefit scam
The Roma champion helping gipsies steal £3m benefits | Mail Online

Ethnic reidentification
Interview: The Status of Roma in Europe -- Part 1 | IBTimes

The Rudari land owners
http://www.policy.hu/pantea/Files/Pantea Policy Paper.pdf
Bellwether - Journal Article

It's odd that someone so forthrighteous can't take challenging views. I even asked for some positivity, but I guess people just read a line, & decide they know all there is to know about a poster.

How prejudicial.

Oh, HG - I don't have a problem with Romani:smile:. I think the enormous sums of cash the UK& Germany gives to Romania, Slovakia et al should go to sorting out their problems domestically.

The Romani should also give massive ground too - stop having so many children - that then have to work at 12 - who then marry as children - having more children - that causes their settlements to become hellholes - so they then just tear up every other citizens rights, & build wherever they like, which pisses off the all the law abiding citizens.

It doesn't build community cohesion.

I just have a problem with anyone who at least doesn't have the decency to be charming in their begging rather than aggressive - pickpocketing kids -& wankers who surround you trying to steal your camera/phone - burgle, beat you up, or steel your car.

And that goes for any colour or culture!

Unlike most people on here I suspect, I actually socialize with Travellers, & live in an area(simply because it was he 1st place I could buy & never bothered moving) that is always in the top 10 worse places to live in the UK, due to its high levels of crime, violence, increased illegal diversity , & lack of investment.

I don't puport high minded ideals whilst living in an ivory tower. I live in the thick of it.

 

[vince]

The Rudari land owners
http://www.policy.hu/pantea/Files/Pantea Policy Paper.pdf
Bellwether - Journal Article

The first link-
"Abstract
A geographer discusses changes in the ownership of state and collectivized rural land in post-communist Romania", is incomplete and links to an article one must pay $30.00 to read. No thanks.

The second link, "COMBATING ROMA CHILD LABOR
THROUGH EDUCATION IN ROMANIA" only mentions Roma landownership in passing-

"Now, almost half of Roma live in the countryside, though only 23.8% own land and 41.4% have a garden. In these circumstances, the only sources of income are sporadic and poorly-paid day labor and, not rarely, stealing [CASPIS, 2002]. Many of the families who lived in the cities had to sell their apartments because of the impossibility of paying the living costs. Many moved into marginalized and often overcrowded neighborhoods."

It's an informative paper but does not support your assertion. Unless having a garden constitutes owning large tracts of land in Eastern Europe.

 

[Bbucko]

Bb, not to be pedantic, but I wonder if you meant what Capote said about Jack Kerouac: "That's not writing, it's typing."
Ouch.
Capote had an insult for Susann too. He said she looked like "a truck driver in drag."
I dunno, Bb. Truck drivers are not my thing.
Whaddayu think?

Honestly I thought both quotes were directed at JS: he was so not a fan though I am :redface:

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Honestly I thought both quotes were directed at JS: he was so not a fan though I am :redface:

I enjoyed Valley of the Dolls.
Not great literature but a pretty good read.

 

[helgaleena]

Crackoff mailed me privately that he hasn't slept in 3 days. Living with a bipolar has taught me to cut someone on a sleepless jag a generous amount of slack. Everything he states is couched in terms of 'them' as if groups are not made of individuals however.

He also said he had debated the Roma problem recently on a message board based in India! reputed origin of the Roma and actual origin of much rigid thinking about social categories. Easy for those in India to think in terms of 'them'...

More and more former colonial powers in Europe are going to be dealing with 'the melting pot' phenomenon of immigration, just as the USA does, or doesn't. Think of all the Asian ethnic groups flooding into Oz too-- Jackie Chan's mom and dad for instance!

And I think the reason the Roma have so many babies is because they are often Catholics. Good old 'every sperm is sacred'...

 

[D_Gunther Snotpole]

Crackoff mailed me privately that he hasn't slept in 3 days. Living with a bipolar has taught me to cut someone on a sleepless jag a generous amount of slack. Everything he states is couched in terms of 'them' as if groups are not made of individuals however.

Hmmm.
Well, three days without sleep explain quite a bit.

 

[helgaleena]

Here is a map of Roma populations in Europe.

'A Disgrace': EU Rebukes France Over Roma Expulsions - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

The latest outcry from the EU seat in Luxembourg is that France's activities are 'probably illegal'. I am atm unsure if they require Roma to have work visas in France in order to stay after the three months or if they are also required before the three months. According to Der Spiegel, all they need to extend their stay post three months is a job. Meanwhile France is going to have to be more careful about which papers belong to whom and is within its rights to disband camps on private lands, but not to automatically deport the people in the camps just for being there.

 

[Freddie36]

Most countries have deported Roma , and, as "Charlemagne" from the journal The Economist pointed today France deported 10 000 last year. The "irony" is that this reaction to the populist move of the French president means that France will have to be more careful and will deport less people in the future. Which brings the question: what does actually annoy other countries: the deportations or the noise?

By the way France --including her President-- has been all too prompt to use the "WWII" reference against Germany several time. This is a one way street apparently

 

[798686]

The decline in the gypsy lifestyle is found from 1918 through to the 1960s, little more than a generation. The vast majority of gypsies both Roma and Shelta have settled and assimilated with the rest of the British Isles population. The process was in part a decision by the people, in part carrot and stick legislation. There most certainly were problems with the process. However very few today would wish to see it undone. The gypsy lifestyle is incompatible with providing education for children, has much higher mortality rates including higher infant mortality, and is a group of people largely outside of the tax system theough receiving benefits and health care. The romance of the Romany Rye must be balanced against the realities of poverty.

Surely what will happen to the Roma in Central and Eastern Europe is that they will settle and assimilate, just as their cousins in the British Isles have done. This has to be the way forward. But the settlement and assimilation is most practical in the area where they are already established. The idea of substantial Roma migrations to France (or anywhere) for settlement in a different culture is wrong for everyone, most of all for the Roma. Maybe the EU should be putting pressure on Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and others to provide the support the Roma need and which EU legislation in theory guarantees these countries will provide.

Interesting. It does seem to be the best way forward to settle and integrate into surrounding society. I did wonder how many actually want to do that, or is it just that they haven't got the opportunity or incentive to do so in mainland Europe?

I do disagree with the way they're being treated in France - but I guess a way has to be found either to encourage them to integrate, or perhaps live in groups in allocated areas, if they wish to continue their traditional lifestyle.

Is it persecution and harrassment that's causing to leave their traditional areas, such as Romania/Bulgaria, or the chance of a better life economically (or both)? Since Romania and Bulgaria get full freedom of movement in the EU in 2014, I can only see the trend continuing unless a suitable way of handling it is found that's fair to all.

 

[Bbucko]

Is it persecution and harrassment that's causing to leave their traditional areas, such as Romania/Bulgaria, or the chance of a better life economically (or both)? Since Romania and Bulgaria get full freedom of movement in the EU in 2014, I can only see the trend continuing unless a suitable way of handling it is found that's fair to all.

Won't the "full freedom of movement" principle render all these deportations irrelevant eventually?

 

[Jason]

Won't the "full freedom of movement" principle render all these deportations irrelevant eventually?

Maybe. I think the problem is more the sheer numbers. France can legally help individuals who have run out of money to return to their homes (on the basis of individual cases and with a "dossier" to support the decision to repatriate them). But this system breaks down in the face of large numbers. It also requires tidy paperwork so that France can prove that the deporatations are of individuals (who just happen to be Roma) rather than of the Roma as a people.