The Roma

[798686]

Won't the "full freedom of movement" principle render all these deportations irrelevant eventually?

You'd think so. Lol, not sure what Sarkozy hopes to gain, other than short-term political advantage?

 

[Bbucko]

Maybe. I think the problem is more the sheer numbers. France can legally help individuals who have run out of money to return to their homes (on the basis of individual cases and with a "dossier" to support the decision to repatriate them). But this system breaks down in the face of large numbers. It also requires tidy paperwork so that France can prove that the deportations are of individuals (who just happen to be Roma) rather than of the Roma as a people.

Knowing the French fetish for documentation, I'm sure that all such paperwork has all its Ts crossed and Is dotted, but I'm much less clear on how such individuals can be banned from returning to France eventually.

You'd think so. Lol, not sure what Sarkozy hopes to gain, other than short-term political advantage?

Is there some other calculus by which political leaders ever effectuate policy? It's certainly the MO for everyone around these parts.

No one ever sees a bump in the polls for taking a long-view of anything.

 

[798686]

Apparently, the Bulgarian President has referred the matter to the EU Commission (who were less than happy with Sarkozy - inducing him to launch into a tirade against Commission Pres, Barroso). They're looking into ways to help the Roma with education and employment, but as they're nomadic, can't really be confined to one country.

 

[Empathizer]

Replaced "Roma" with "Jew." Nice Mad Lib. Where do you buy those black shirts this time of history?

There's not a hint of irony here.

French Nationalism is abused, whilst the supposed cultural identity of the Jews is lauded.

Their total lack (apart from a small percentage) of desire to assimilate & retain their cultural identity is in no way different to that of the French.

It'd wholly amusing that those who attack & jeer at other's protective cultural sentiments, defend a group that loathe any other lifestyle other than their own, & refuse any integration,clearly defining the Jews as racists & bigots themselves.

Application of an ethical code shouldn't carry exceptions.

Thanks,

Your local NSDAP canvasser.

One Man!
One Vote!
One Feuhrer!

 

[helgaleena]

Romea.cz - Roma man dies in ambulance in Slovakia, crew dumps his body in front his home

More Slovak depersonalization of Gypsy human by EMTs.

Prejudice and evictions widespread in Europe not just France, activists warn | World news | The Guardian

This is one of a number of articles I have seen claiming that Gypsies in Spain have it better since Franco was ousted. Is there any truth to that? I have heard Brits claim their Gypsies are well-integrated now also :scratchchin:

 

[Drifterwood]

Can I just give Amnesty International a plug? They have been covering this situation long before it worked its way into the mainstream media.

 

[helgaleena]

You may! AI is a great organization.

 

[helgaleena]

The Associated Press: French Gypsies recall forgotten wartime internment

French gypsies are being tossed out of their camps too. These are the tsiganes, not the Roma.

http://www.vpr.net/episode/49511/

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/04/world/la-fg-france-protests-20100905

 

[helgaleena]

Stop forcible returns of Roma to Kosovo | Amnesty International It appears Germany has been targeting its Kosovo Roma 'guest workers.'

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cac0f220-c7fe-11df-ae3a-00144feab49a.html

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/n...ace-the-same-prejudices-across-Eastern-Europe

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/world/europe/17roma.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=roma &st=cse
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap...4OEW94SDAX_y9FE2VIQgD9IHL9T80?docId=D9IHL9T80

http://sify.com/news/gypsy-gangs-st...k-pockets-news-international-kj2nkfdbdjf.html Roma in the Mafia have nice houses and steal children.

 

[helgaleena]

Local mayor swims against the tide in France, acts like a human being

One mayor's act of defiance against Roma expulsions - The Irish Times - Sat, Sep 25, 2010

 

[798686]

After the EU Commission rapped France's knuckles over the Roma issue, they agreed to enact the 'Freedom of Movement' directive into law. Which means in the future, deportees will have right of appeal, etc - altho why this wasn't already the case in France, I've no idea. Doesn't look like they will be penalised for any mistreatment of Roma upto now, though.

I was speaking to a French dude today, and his view of the problem is that the Roma seem to cause problems for themselves. Unwillingess to settle down (obviously), and objection to the terms they're offered. He mentioned a town where they were given an alloted area with electricity, toilets, etc (admittedly...it was a car park), but they preferred a country area, free of rent (understandably, I guess).

He also mentioned the areas they've visited being trashed with litter and debris, and also an increase in petty crime when they were there. Whether this is true or not, I don't know - but there seems to be a need to weigh their needs (freedom of movement, decent areas to live), along with other issues such as connecting them to the employment market and education, and ensuring undiminished quality of life for nearby residents.

 

[helgaleena]

Round here the trailer parks are full of White trash.

 

[798686]

Round here the trailer parks are full of White trash.

Lol...that may be true - but does it have any bearing on the Roma issue?

'White trash' maybe resented for similar reasons...but it doesn't mean they should have their civil liberties taken away, nor does it mean any unacceptable bahaviour should be ignored. Same goes for the Roma, I think?

 

[Jason]

We seem half-hearted in our approach to the probem. France deserves a rap on the knuckles (or more) but this isn't actually going to solve the problem. Rather we need to look at what is so wrong in the EU countries from which the Roma are migrating and apply the knuckle rapping to those governments.

 

[dandelion]

surely traditionally they, er, roam, all over europe. Shouldnt think they are great respecters of nation sates or their borders. Assuming they are EU citizens I dont quite see how the French government can deport them, and if they arent, then I dont quite see why they are there anyway. The whole thing is a political stunt, though that doesnt deal with the fundamental problem of people who want a travelling lifestyle whether in France or Britain. In Britain gypsies have even tried building their own permanent campsites where they want to have them (rather than the god forsaken car parks favoured by authorities), and guess what, the councils to a man deny them planning permission and move them on. Our local town was supposed to find a suitable site. It is of modest size with lots of surrounding countryside. They came up with a short list of three possible places. 1) next to the local tip. 2)the very middle of the town. 3) a bit of green land near the edge of the town which already had a following of local agitators demanding it be reserved as a park. All three had the bonus that they wouldnt cost the council anything. About the only thing that could be said for them.

 

[midlifebear]

Without Roms southern Spain, especially around Andalucia, would never have become famous for Flamenco. Sometime around 1490 a gitano decided to add a fifth string to the oud (a lute), but the Spanish were more interested in the full-voiced six-string classical guitar. In addition, the fusion of gitano style oud and classical guitar is how the 5/4 time signature that is fundamental to Flamenco was born. The same 5/4 has been passed from Flamenco to a bunch of Spanish dance forms, including modern Salsa.

However, if you have northern European routes -- you're most likely unable to feel or count in 5/4. As a close friend of mine likes to say, "People born with gringo hips are incapable of understanding what's going on."


Leave the Roms alone.

 

[Jason]

The UK use of "gypsy" refers to a lifestyle, not an ethnicity. Traditionally it referred to two ethnicities, the Roma (ultimately from India) and the Shelta or Tinkers (from Ireland). Both arrived in Britain about the same time, both had a nomadic lifestyle, and both were subjected to the same "gypsy" laws.

The Roma and Shelta in the UK have almost entirely settled and have fully integrated with the settled population. There are tiny numbers still living a traditional lifestyle. Integration of the Roma has happened elsewhere (as in Spain for example, where they are a distinct group that is part of Spanish culture).

The vast majority of "gypsies" in the UK today are New Age Travellers, part of the settled population who have decided to live a travelling life. There are major welfare issues around this lifestyle when children are involved as it causes educational disruption and much higher levels of infant mortality than in the settled population. There are problems also around a population that are perceived as unproductive and who are perceived as living on benefits and (in some cases) crime.

The new issue is substantial numbers of ethnic Roma moving out of Eastern Europe. The old communist system provided barriers between countries as well as the Berlin Wall absolutely preventing movement to Western Europe. Since the Second World War most East European Roma have been nomadic within a single country. Typically they speak this national language (as well as a dialect of Roma) and have some employment opportunities within the countries where they have been living. Their movement to Western Europe is seemingly not as economic migrants seeking work (which is part of the EU system) but as de facto internal refugees. It is not that they want to go to France (or anywhere else) but that they want to leave nations where they feel persecuted. This is the key problem that the EU needs to sort out.

 

[798686]

It is not that they want to go to France (or anywhere else) but that they want to leave nations where they feel persecuted. This is the key problem that the EU needs to sort out.

Yep.

In Britain gypsies have even tried building their own permanent campsites where they want to have them (rather than the god forsaken car parks favoured by authorities), and guess what, the councils to a man deny them planning permission and move them on.

Bit tight. :frown1: Wonder what would happen if a council were brave enough to say yes, and find them a permanent place to their liking (possibly ask for an EU subsidy towards it?). Then try to find some way of including them in the local community, in terms of employment, healthcare, education, etc.?

 

[helgaleena]

Lol...that may be true - but does it have any bearing on the Roma issue?

'White trash' maybe resented for similar reasons...but it doesn't mean they should have their civil liberties taken away, nor does it mean any unacceptable bahaviour should be ignored. Same goes for the Roma, I think?

Since it's me who started the thread, I don't think it's irrelevant. Any ethnicity that's economically marginalized tends toward 'trash' lifestyles and behaviors, and the Roma are just one example. It's compounded in their case by a previous devaluation of education by the traditional culture, which makes the assimilation into the sedentary society that much harder.

In Slovakia they are building walls, high walls, around Roma camps. They also routinely put Roma children into 'special education' classes, whether they need it or not. No wonder they drop out young! The same sort of 'segregated' education was routinely inflicted on Native American children until the very end of the 20th century, including my cousins who were the same age as me or younger. One cousin went from 'retarded' class to Harvard, after his parents complained. And this despite his mother teaching high school in the district!

 

[helgaleena]

Yep.


Bit tight. :frown1: Wonder what would happen if a council were brave enough to say yes, and find them a permanent place to their liking (possibly ask for an EU subsidy towards it?). Then try to find some way of including them in the local community, in terms of employment, healthcare, education, etc.?

One of my links above is to a French example of a mayor taking a stand for just such an equality.