The Roma

Jason

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The Associated Press: Hungary's Supreme Court OKs anti-Gypsy ad

Hungarian far rightist political ad bashes Gypsies, while actual Gypsies lynched frequently.

Europe's Hostility Toward Its Gypsies | World | Epoch Times

What IMO we are seeing is a Roma refugee migration fleeing persecution in their homelands. Trying to learn a new language, find jobs and get a life in France (or anywhere else) is very much a second-best solution for Hungarian gypsies. The best solution is for Hungarian-speaking Roma with (some) jobs in Hungary to be granted proper rights and properly integrated within Hungary. I can understand why the EU has criticised France, but why isn't there loud protest against Hungary?
 

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Since it's me who started the thread, I don't think it's irrelevant. Any ethnicity that's economically marginalized tends toward 'trash' lifestyles and behaviors, and the Roma are just one example. It's compounded in their case by a previous devaluation of education by the traditional culture, which makes the assimilation into the sedentary society that much harder.

Cut the rest.

Well, though you may argue that one might be hard pressed to define gay culture as "ethnic", we have been and still are economically marginalized. As for living a "trash" lifestyle . . . well, that too is a bit subjective. However, as a typically marginalized group we do have a nasty habit of moving into the worst neighborhoods in large cities, nest and gentrify them only to be forced out by selling previously depressed "trash" properties to the highest bidders among young heterosexual families with young children who lack our talents and expertise in creating families and neighborhoods out of what others have discarded. Maybe the solution is to promote more gay gypsies.
 

helgaleena

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Well, though you may argue that one might be hard pressed to define gay culture as "ethnic", we have been and still are economically marginalized. As for living a "trash" lifestyle . . . well, that too is a bit subjective. However, as a typically marginalized group we do have a nasty habit of moving into the worst neighborhoods in large cities, nest and gentrify them only to be forced out by selling previously depressed "trash" properties to the highest bidders among young heterosexual families with young children who lack our talents and expertise in creating families and neighborhoods out of what others have discarded. Maybe the solution is to promote more gay gypsies.


http://thumbnail040.mylivepage.com/..._4f3ba4f3-55d0-44b7-9114-325a3f928bb3.jpg.jpg :biggrin1:
 

Jason

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Outsiders: The trouble with the Roma - Europe, World - The Independent

The Italian situation. Just as bad as France, and has been going on like this since 2007. If you are a Roma, you are not allowed to be a refugee. :mad:

Western Europe accepts the concept of refugees from tin-pot third-world regimes and we have systems for responding to the challenge. However inadequate these systems are they do at least exist. But no one dreamt of refugees from within the borders of the EU, ie from within the area where there is free movement of people.

As I write this it occurs to me that it is a breathtaking oversight from the people who handled the admission of the countries in question. IMO it is comparable with ignoring the debts and fiddles of Greece in order to bring Greece into the euro. Seemingly the Eurocrats didn't want to know that there were problems of abuse of the Roma in Bulgaria, Romania, Slovakia (and others). I can only imagine that the Eurocrats felt this would lead to a further wave of European integration as nation states demand an EU response to the issues posed by the Roma. I would be very interested to know what documentation there might be. If my thought is right the Eurocrats have used the Roma as a means to an end.
 

Jason

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An interesting article.

I note the text says "a central factor in their impoverishment is poor access to education". This covers a multitude! I suggest THE central factor in their impoversishment is NOT GOING TO SCHOOL.

In the UK, legal requirements that all children should be educated were enforced, and in effect these forced the Roma to settle.
 

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helgaleena

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Jason

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These are New Age Travellers, not Roma. Strictly they are not Gypsies, though the word is now (wrongly) applied to the New Age Travellers.

New Age Travellers are members of the settled population who have adopted a so-called travelling life style. They have astronomic rates of drug dependency, the associated need for criminal activity to feed their drug addiction, and display all the social problems you might imagine. They are not an ethnicity nor is this in any real sense a lifestyle choice; rather it is a social disaster. 100% of New Age Travellers are offered some form of settled accommodation. That they are not taking it is a problem we should be looking at, and I agree there are real problems. In the UK we have to do more.

The New Age Traveller lifestyle is not compatible with a civilised society. It is a route to an early grave from drug misuse for the New Age Travellers. Not only are they harming themselves but they also represent a mobile crime wave. It is not an appropriate way in which to bring up children (and many are taken into care).

The biggest critics of the New Age Travellers in the UK are the two traditional gypsy groups, the Roma and the Tinkers. The latter are an ethnicity with a culture. The former are part of the settled society with personal problems, and the way forward is to reintegrate them within that society.
 

Jason

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Irish attitudes reflected here and in the comments to the article;

Ireland turns on gypsies homeless | Living My irish Dream | IrishCentral Summary for those who don't want to click the link-- beggars are not afforded sympathy, but Roma beggars are stigmatized more than begging addicts and drunks with paler complexions than Roma.

The Irish response to the Roma is different to Great Britain. The traditional Irish Roma population was recently at something just over 1,000 people and the Irish Roma had largely found their niche in society. There is a degree of settlement, particularly for women and children (eg in north Dublin) with men working mainly in seasonal agricultural work and as stable hands - ie they are working. They are part of Irish society. In the last few years there has been an influx of 1,000-2,000 Romanian Roma. These have nothing to do with the traditional Irish Roma. They are often unable to find work, speak little or no English (or Irish), and appear to gain a living through begging and crime. The correct course of action would be for them to be settled in the country whose language and culture they know - ie Romania should treat them decently. Ireland is in a bind. It may be that Ireland, even with the present austerity, could accomodate 1,000-2,000 refugees (de facto though not de jure this is what they are). But accommodate them better than the EU average and every EU Roma will go to Ireland.

It really is back to the problem that in a Europe of open borders countries like Romania have to be made to treat their Roma populations properly.
 

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These are New Age Travellers, not Roma. Strictly they are not Gypsies, though the word is now (wrongly) applied to the New Age Travellers.

New Age Travellers are members of the settled population who have adopted a so-called travelling life style. They have astronomic rates of drug dependency, the associated need for criminal activity to feed their drug addiction, and display all the social problems you might imagine. They are not an ethnicity nor is this in any real sense a lifestyle choice; rather it is a social disaster. 100% of New Age Travellers are offered some form of settled accommodation. That they are not taking it is a problem we should be looking at, and I agree there are real problems. In the UK we have to do more.

The New Age Traveller lifestyle is not compatible with a civilised society. It is a route to an early grave from drug misuse for the New Age Travellers. Not only are they harming themselves but they also represent a mobile crime wave. It is not an appropriate way in which to bring up children (and many are taken into care).

The biggest critics of the New Age Travellers in the UK are the two traditional gypsy groups, the Roma and the Tinkers. The latter are an ethnicity with a culture. The former are part of the settled society with personal problems, and the way forward is to reintegrate them within that society.


http://www.thisiskent.co.uk/news/Undefined-Headline/article-2748565-detail/article.html
Having read these articles, I'm unsure how to tell the difference in ethnicity between one caravan dweller and another, when it's a matter of closing down caravan parks altogether. Although I have heard the Horse Fair is a wonderful and profitable tourist attraction! More organized festivities like that, and more black peas, say I.
 
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Jason

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Roma in the British Isles living a traditional lifestyle (as opposed to ethnic Roma) are tiny. The Irish Republic estimates this group at around 1,000. I don't think there are UK figures but the numbers are tiny. The UK Roma have almost all settled. In the UK as in Ireland most Roma mix seasonal travel with semi-settled lifestyle - they send their children to school, work, play a part in UK society. The horse fairs are associated with this group - and yes they are a tourist attraction. The Roma have been in the British Isles for centuries and are part of British society.

Tinker populations living a traditional lifestyle are again tiny. Again this ethnic group has now almost always settled. Often there is overlap with Roma.

Roma and Tinkers who travel have sites provided by local authorities. While I'm sure the system is less than perfect, taken in the round it does seem to work. These sites are not open to New Age Travellers.

New Age Travellers are part of the settled UK population who have de-settled. They are squatters in that they live in squats, or in caravans on land which they have no right to occupy - basically shanty towns. As squatters there are immediate problems with sanitation and power for winter heating, as well as issues around whether children can be allowed to live in such conditions. The UK approach is to offer accommodation along with social security benefits so that this part of the settled UK population can re-settle.

Squats and shanty towns have no place in a civilised society. The UK policy of providing proper accommodation and benefits surely has to be right. This means that families can stay together, and treatment for drug dependency is available.
 

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Thanks for clarifying. Shanty towns and squats do seem to be a feature of countries categorized as 'third world', ftmp. That some of them also have ancient historical roots is beside the point, I suppose. And certainly the upcoming generations deserve basic needs met and educating.
 

helgaleena

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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/03/opinion/03iht-edgrigore.html Here is an 'assimilated' Roma voice.

If there were a Gypsy state, it would be the 9th largest in the European Union. You cannot get rid of the Gypsies without destroying the foundation of the E.U.’s values and principles. The crisis in France is akin to an acute medical incident, where ignoring the ailment is not an option. The problem in France threatens the health of the entire Union; it is a medical emergency that has been neglected too long and now demands treatment.
It is hard to accept a part of oneself that one doesn’t know much about. And who wants to accept a stigmatized side that creates so many problems?
But exclusion, denial, expulsion and deportation are damaging for a very simple reason: This part of ourselves will not disappear only because we don’t like it. It will remain in ghettos and less developed communities, and it will create problems until we, as Europeans, stop playing ping-pong with Gypsies (a sport known as migration, often forced — or, for those fascinated by Gypsies, “the culture of traveling”) and assume full responsibility for our common challenge.

The writer above is a Fulbright fellow.

Also not all 'travellers' are an underclass:
http://www.news24.com/Columnists/ClemSunter/The-gypsy-lords-20101027

 
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