The Roma

[dandelion]

The EU is keen to ignore these issues (just as it ignores financial irregularities)

I dont know that it is. The member states (ie including us) are keen to ignore these breeches in the interests of harmony.

So far we have seen the national reflex (France kicks out some Roma) and the easy response (lets criticise France). We need the real response - lets criticise the nations that are abusive to their people and lets put pressure on them to sort it out.

This is exactly the same issue as the usa invading Iraq or afghanistan. The US suffered a terrorist attack and decided that in return it would invade a couple of countries and kill a million or two people. Something bad going on in one place does not justify something bad going on elsewhere. Maybe roma are persecuted more in the countries they came from than in France, but this does not excuse the French. (though happily they have a better sense of proportion than the US). Nor do the roma get much better treatment in the UK.

Speculator if you restart the British Empire can you please take back Palestine....from the river to the sea, Palestine will be.......British!

I think we gave up the empire thing because it had become more trouble than it was worth. For example, palestine. Just waiting for the US to learn the same lesson.

 

[Jason]

Maybe roma are persecuted more in the countries they came from than in France, but this does not excuse the French. (though happily they have a better sense of proportion than the US). Nor do the roma get much better treatment in the UK.

I think we gave up the empire thing because it had become more trouble than it was worth. For example, palestine. Just waiting for the US to learn the same lesson.

France certainly has responsibility. But we also need to stand back and ask what we want France to do. Integration of Romanian (and other) Roma within France will at best take a couple of decades, during which persecution by Roma and other gang-masters will continue (and cannot reasonably be solved by France). The only viable solution for the Roma is that the abuses in their home countries stop. The EU institutions and EU states all have a part to play. Maybe France should take the lead, but we need a spirit of the institute and the nations supporting France.

I am aware of the UK Romany community as it is part of my personal heritage. The position for UK Romany right now is better than it has been in living memory (perhaps better than since the 1880s). There are very few new Roma migrants in the UK (though Belfast described above in this thread). There is no room for UK complacency but it is wrong to suggest there is some big UK problem with the Romany (New Age Travellers are not Romany. Belfast Roma - yes I personally think we in the UK are wrong, but it is a consequence of the peace process).

As for the British mandate in Palestine - you may be aware that the Women's Institute is leading a campaign to establish "Jerusalem" as the new anthem for England. In a spiritual sense we may be going way beyond a mere mandate. :wink:

 

[helgaleena]

France certainly has responsibility. But we also need to stand back and ask what we want France to do. Integration of Romanian (and other) Roma within France will at best take a couple of decades, during which persecution by Roma and other gang-masters will continue (and cannot reasonably be solved by France). The only viable solution for the Roma is that the abuses in their home countries stop. The EU institutions and EU states all have a part to play. Maybe France should take the lead, but we need a spirit of the institute and the nations supporting France.

I am aware of the UK Romany community as it is part of my personal heritage. The position for UK Romany right now is better than it has been in living memory (perhaps better than since the 1880s). There are very few new Roma migrants in the UK (though Belfast described above in this thread). There is no room for UK complacency but it is wrong to suggest there is some big UK problem with the Romany (New Age Travellers are not Romany. Belfast Roma - yes I personally think we in the UK are wrong, but it is a consequence of the peace process).

As for the British mandate in Palestine - you may be aware that the Women's Institute is leading a campaign to establish "Jerusalem" as the new anthem for England. In a spiritual sense we may be going way beyond a mere mandate. :wink:

William Blake's little ditty is much too nice to replace 'God Save the King/Queen' :tongue: I am glad to know that your well-informed take on the UK situation has a personal reason behind it, Jason.

 

[Jason]

The idea is to use "Jerusalem" as the English anthem - "God Save the Queen" is the UK/Aus/NZ and Commonwealth anthem. Scotland uses "Scotland the Brave" and Wales "Land of My Fathers".

Our UK anthem was written in 1744 and sung by the London masses the next year when the Scots were marching on London (Bonnie Prince Charlie and all that) - it contains a verse about crushing rebellious Scots.

 

[helgaleena]

Woman jailed over Roma community benefits scam - Crime, UK - The Independent

This is sad.

 

[helgaleena]

Here is some info about the Dom, Gypsies in Israel-Palestine.

http://www.jpost.com/JerusalemReport/Article.aspx?id=194345


Some have adopted Arabic, some Hebrew, but fewer and fewer can speak Domari.

 

[D_Alastair Pisspoore]

I spent most of my childhood in Israel/Palestine and I never encountered any of the Dom. It's sad that these minority groups are losing their unique culture and way of life, like the Samaritans, Circassians, and Bedouin. I don't think people realized how diverse Palestine was before 1948, it was more than just Arabs and Jews.

 

[dandelion]

thats a difficult thing. I saw half an item about some undiscovered native people somewhere and an expedition being organised to visit them. Still happening somewhere. One faction was objecting to this expedition, on the grounds it would inevitably disrupt the native society and that this must be preserved. Its a point of view, but I cant help thinking that if you went to the objectors and said, ok, we will take away your children and get the natives to bring them up in their culture, boost their numbers, the objectors would object. Nice concept that there is an unspoilt enclave somewhere divorced from the west, but that means no goods, no medicine, no tv, no anything we all value. Now, not quite the same thing here, but if everyone in the region was hogenised, there wouldnt be any problem.

 

[Jason]

Here is some info about the Dom, Gypsies in Israel-Palestine.

Under the Radar


Some have adopted Arabic, some Hebrew, but fewer and fewer can speak Domari.

An interesting article.

London a century ago saw the phenomenon of frequent inter-marriage between Jews and Gypsies creating a short-lived cultural hybrid of the two groups. Some of this group must have migrated from the UK to the new state of Israel - maybe more Israelis have Gypsy blood than know it!

 

[dandelion]

life is funny like that sometimes. Oh, and it was homogenised, certainly not intended any slur involving animals.

 

[Speculator]

The nations of Central and Eastern Europe that belong to the EU have signed up to the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU. Some of these nations (Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Slovakia seem the worst offenders) breach this charter in their treatment of the Roma - and they are major breaches, not details. (They also breach other international statements of human rights). The EU is keen to ignore these issues (just as it ignores financial irregularities) and there has been little coverage in the UK press. But there are grave humanitarian issues.

Do you mean the European Convention on Human Rights? The associated court: The European Court of Human Rights is a seperate entity from the EU. It was set up in 1950 by the Council of Europe, if individuals feel the need they can always take their government to court if their human rights are being violated. There's no need to flee to foreign states.

I understand that the EU have highlighted corruption issues in the East though, particularly with Romania and Bulgaria, but this isn't really a humanitarian problem. The UK and the US are fairly corrupt (and its getting worse) but using standard legal definitions they're rarely in breach of human rights law.

Tbh if these countries are mired in corruption its all the more reason to not let their citizens in, there are a lot of backward cultures in the area and this is why they suffer problems they do. If France became 90% Roma for example it would end up a terrible place to live, and most likely refugees would start pouring out seeking asylum, it's a problem with the ideology. All cultures have their own problems but some are more stable then others. Change the cultural makeup too much and you change the very thing that made that country attractive in the first place.

 

[Jason]

No, I mean Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU, which is core to the EU (as you say the European Convention on Human Rights has a court separate from the EU). It is because of the former that the EU as an institution should be acting.

The financial corruption issues in Bulgaria and Romania are substantial - far greater than those associated with Greece for example - but these countries are pledged to join the euro. In the event that they do not adopt the standards of financial probity of (say) Germany they risk wrecking the euro - if of course it still exists when they are ready to join.

 

[helgaleena]

The Canadian Press: Czech government under fire for still placing healthy Gypsy kids in schools for disabled The Czech school system's 'mentally disabled' classes are 80% Roma. And many of them are not mentally disabled.

excerpt:
In two other separate cases, the court ruled that Romani children face a similar kind of discrimination in Greece and Croatia, Kushen said, adding that they are also sent to special schools in Slovakia, Serbia, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania, and even Spain has "a serious level of segregation."


http://www.miller-mccune.com/politics/europe-and-its-gypsies-25206/ Paradoxically this blogger said that the Roma had it better under Tito!

 

[Jason]

Czechoslovakia had a policy of forced sterilisation of Roma women, in place 1973-1989. The document that underpins the Velvet Revolution calls this policy a "genocide", and more recently the policy has been condemned by the Czech government and prosecutions of those responsible have been requested and may happen. Criticising past bad treatment of the Roma is part of the foundation document of the present Czech political class (Charter 77).

I wonder if the statistic of 80% of the "mentally disabled" being Roma is a mistranslated term. If the translation is instead something like "special needs" (a UK term) the issue is materially changed. Children who miss much schooling do have special needs as a consequence, so yes very many Roma children will have special needs (they do in the UK).

Of course it might just be that the Canadian press is right. But of all the (former) Eastern European countries, the Czech Republic and Poland are the two I would now think most likely to have decent conditions. The really dire problems are Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, maybe Slovakia.

 

[helgaleena]

Landowner says proposed gypsy and traveller site means this could be a...£750,000 bridge to nowhere

No wall, but 'there goes the neighbourhood' in Exeter....

http://dagblog.com/reader-blogs/nationalism-rises-again-europe-7528 I truly think that the plight of the Roma is actually the plight of EU guest workers of many ethnicities. The link above has dozens of links for further reading.

 

[Jason]

We've got a language problem. Gypsy and Traveller are two completely different groups and should not be confused.

Gypsy is an ethnicity with a culture and lifestyle, and traditional gypsies have a distinctive niche in UK society. Of course there are frictions, but taken in the round it works.

Traveller is the phenomenon of people taking to campervans and similar and using these as their homes, living in shanty towns. They camp without sanitation. Drug usage is endemic. Very often a decision is made that they are unable to care adequately for children and children are placed in care. Crime (much drug caused) is astronomic.

The UK solution is through a social security system that guarantees a home to absolutely everyone. Absolutely everyone who pitches up in a traveller shanty town is offered and encouraged to take a home, and they are decent places. For every person who refuses there is a story. Drug usage, mental breakdown, on the run from a crime. It isn't pretty. We're trying to replace completely unregulated sites with regulated sites (where sanitation can be provided), and it looks as if your article is a town considering the placing of one such site.

Of course any location for a traveller camp is hugely contoversial. For property owners there will be an instant change from the sky high property values of the UK to property which is almost valueless. By contrast a gypsy camp is not likely to be a problem. Sites are traditional and have become accepted. Gypsies work, live their lives, keep clear of drugs.

 

[helgaleena]

We've got a language problem. Gypsy and Traveller are two completely different groups and should not be confused.

Gypsy is an ethnicity with a culture and lifestyle, and traditional gypsies have a distinctive niche in UK society. Of course there are frictions, but taken in the round it works.

Traveller is the phenomenon of people taking to campervans and similar and using these as their homes, living in shanty towns. They camp without sanitation. Drug usage is endemic. Very often a decision is made that they are unable to care adequately for children and children are placed in care. Crime (much drug caused) is astronomic.

The UK solution is through a social security system that guarantees a home to absolutely everyone. Absolutely everyone who pitches up in a traveller shanty town is offered and encouraged to take a home, and they are decent places. For every person who refuses there is a story. Drug usage, mental breakdown, on the run from a crime. It isn't pretty. We're trying to replace completely unregulated sites with regulated sites (where sanitation can be provided), and it looks as if your article is a town considering the placing of one such site.

Of course any location for a traveller camp is hugely contoversial. For property owners there will be an instant change from the sky high property values of the UK to property which is almost valueless. By contrast a gypsy camp is not likely to be a problem. Sites are traditional and have become accepted. Gypsies work, live their lives, keep clear of drugs.

The folks in Exeter seem not to know the difference :sad: