The sabotage of obamacare begins.

b.c.

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@Industrialsize @ Klingsor @sargon20 Thanks for saving me the time having to EXPLAIN it to him. Not that any of it ever makes a difference with THEM anyway. Which is exactly why most Republicans in Congress believe they can do whatever the fk they WANT to do to the American people.
 
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rbi99

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Wow you are dense. Do you really believe the nonsense you spew? Are you that much of a left wing extremist that you can't acknowledge that Obamacare was one big ass mistake, America?

Are you really claiming that Obamacare isn't the reason premiums have doubled and tripled and deductibles have tripled or more?

I would see your point - IF - rates weren't already skyrocketing before the ACA. At our mill the number one issue our company had when it came time for a new contract was health insurance costs - before ACA. They are still the number one issue today, so the ACA was not the perfect answer. When the Republicans allow healthy young people to not bother getting coverage, who will be left? Those who are most sick. With more sick people then healthy ones being covered you think those rates are going to go down? When young people find out that their elder parents are no longer insured because they can't afford the Republican screwing of the elderly and their astronomical rates, who will help them? The Republicans have been screaming about the ACA for seven years, and yet it was only the past few weeks that they actually came up with a plan. A plan that no one got to have any say, or even a single publican hearing.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/04/obamacare-repeal-vote-republican-hypocrisy-237981
 

rbi99

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The problem with Trump people and most conservatives isn't that your views different from the left, it is that when these differences are debated or discussed, you so often times respond in insulting or degrading ways, rather than presenting your facts. Hannity on Fox is a perfect example of a right wing conservative that usual ridicule over facts.
 

phonehome

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Yes almost if not EVERYTHING that for the last 7 years instantly "gets blamed on Obamacare " were things that were going on when he was still a IL State Senator.

Used to work for Lowes and by 06 pretty much everytime someone quit, they almost never "fired" anyone so they could avoid paying unemployment, they just fucked with you enough until you said to hell with it and quit but when people did they either did not replace them at all or replaced them with a part time person maybe 2, no benefits no possibilty of ever having to pay overtime while getting maybe 60 hours a week of work. It was not just my store doing that and Lowes was hardly the only company doing that by then but before the first echo of Joe Biden saying it was BFD died out any company that was shifting workers to part time or hiring new part timers just blamed it on Obamacare and the Bulldogs of the country ate it up.

A few years back UPS was in the news because they came out with a policy that said if your spouse worked someplace that OFFERED health insurance that he/she had to buy/use that insurance that they were no longer going to "insure" the employees of other companies. Of course they blamed it on Obamacare even though companies had been doing that or at least "wanting to do that" for years now they just had the "perfect excuse" of course Rush, Sean and Bill were all over that and of course all the non thinking Bulldogs of the county swallowed that hook line and sinker.

"I could not keep my insurance/Doctor" For years we saw companies going out of business, "downsizing" moving to China or Mexico or just another state like Texas who were/are willing to bribe a company to move there often downsizing as part of the move. Well what was the result of that? If you could not move to where ever even if that was possibility you were out of job and even if you were lucky enough to get a new one odds are that new employer used a DIFFERENT insurance company that had a DIFFERENT "network" if they offered insurance at all that is. What did that equal "I could not keep my insurance.Doctor". For the ones that did not move well there were mergers, often with "downsizing" but even if that was not the case the new "parent company" often had different insurance company and even if none of that happened. It was also not unusual for a company to in order "to get a better deal" change insurance companies or the policies they buy from the one they are using. Again that equals "i was not able to keep my insurance/Doctor" Going on for YEARS before ACA but after 010 just scapegoat it onto Obamacare and the Bulldogs will believe that.

Every time an employer, especially one of those vaunted "small business" that the right loves so much and goes on and on and on about needed an excuse why they only used part time employees and never added any full time employees they blamed it on Obama care and when you looked at the company making the claim you found out they had no where near the number of employees that it would take the ACA would require them to offer insurance. Often like 10 or 20 if that and they could convert every part time employee to full time and then double the number and still have less than 50 employees to say nothing for the fact that in both pre and post ACA worlds they were/are never required to offer "benefits" to part timers anyway. But say it was all the fault of Obamcare and the Bulldogs of the world will eat that up.

As already noted the costs of healthcare and insurance had been going up by as much if not more for years, when President Obama was still an IL State Senator.
 
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deleted15807

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The problem with Trump people and most conservatives isn't that your views different from the left, it is that when these differences are debated or discussed, you so often times respond in insulting or degrading ways, rather than presenting your facts. Hannity on Fox is a perfect example of a right wing conservative that usual ridicule over facts.

Nope. They never provide any data in terms of objective evidence that conservative policy is effective in producing the desired results. It's all rhetoric. And the more you ask the angrier and insulting it gets.
 
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rbi99

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Nope. They never provide any data in terms of objective evidence that conservative policy is effective in producing the desired results. It's all rhetoric. And the more you ask the angrier and insulting it gets.

To be fair a whole lot of liberals don't really know what they are talking about either. They hear something and run with it. When I hear something I verify it before I repeat it. The other problem liberals have (and I am a liberal) is that we spend too much time trying to see the other side. Obama spent an entire year trying to get Republican input and backing. In many other situations we allow an awful lot of debate. Conservative Republicans tend to run with what they want and everyone else be damned. Their health care plan is a perfect example. Imagine, seven years of bitching and doing everything in their power to kill it, and when it came time for them to act on it, they didn't have a plan in place. So now the senate is going to vote on this damn thing after only a handful of Republican senators spent a couple of weeks trying to actually come up with something - anything. The only way a Republican, especially a Trump Republican will see how crazy this is is to let their plan be approved. It will only be after many of Trump's people get screwed over that they will see the truth. Unfortunately, there will be an awful lot of collateral damage before that happens.
 

BULLDOG00

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I'm still waiting for one Republican/Trumper to post and explain why it is they support the Senate Healthcare Bill. TBH, I don't think that any of them can.

Maybe because none of us think the AHCA is the solution. I haven't read the AHCA but for what I know of it I like getting rid of the individual mandate and Obamacare taxes. I don't know much else about it that would reduce costs, increase options, or create more competition. I am waiting to see the bill that hits Trump's desk. There is still negotiation to be done.
 

Industrialsize

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Maybe because none of us think the AHCA is the solution. I haven't read the AHCA but for what I know of it I like getting rid of the individual mandate and Obamacare taxes. I don't know much else about it that would reduce costs, increase options, or create more competition. I am waiting to see the bill that hits Trump's desk. There is still negotiation to be done.
Typical Trumper. This is the biggest piece of legislation that effects one fifth of the economy and the lives of every American and you,"Don't know much else about it" other than it gets rid of the individual mandate and some non-specified obamacare taxes. I'll bite, what obamacare taxes does it get rid of?
 

b.c.

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I'm still waiting for one Republican/Trumper to post and explain why it is they support the Senate Healthcare Bill. TBH, I don't think that any of them can.
Maybe because none of us think the AHCA is the solution. I haven't read the AHCA but for what I know of it I like getting rid of the individual mandate and Obamacare taxes. I don't know much else about it that would reduce costs, increase options, or create more competition. I am waiting to see the bill that hits Trump's desk. There is still negotiation to be done.
Typical Trumper. This is the biggest piece of legislation that effects one fifth of the economy and the lives of every American and you,"Don't know much else about it" other than it gets rid of the individual mandate and some non-specified obamacare taxes. I'll bite, what obamacare taxes does it get rid of?

Allow me to translate his answer for you:

Because it's the bill that gets rid of OBAMAcare (i.e. the black guy's legislation). Why do think they dubbed it OBAMAcare in the FIRST place???
 
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deleted116951

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My preferred solution would have been for the Republicans to fix Obamacare rather than flat out burn the ground and salt the earth that it was rooted in.

Now I'm not entirely sure what was "wrong" with Obamacare to begin with but Republicans certainly think its failing and will collapse under its own weight. Instead of completely replacing it with an equally suspect piece of legislation how about we look at why its "failing" and fix that. A fixer up upper bill rather than a total gut job?

As BC referenced, perhaps the only thing wrong with Obamacare is that it's called Obamacare.
 

twoton

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Now I'm not entirely sure what was "wrong" with Obamacare to begin with but

My personal opinion is that it is "failing," (whether it is, I don't know) because the people in charge of implementing the ACA (e.g. health insurers) are the people who didn't want it to work.
 

phonehome

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Most of the reason for why it is "failing" to the degree it is is because of all the GD "flexibility" that the Democrats built into it in order to attract Republicans, Republican in Congress none of whom voted for it in the end anyway and also Republican Governors.

They should have just upped the income limits on Medicaid and had that be that. They would/could have done it in another totally separate piece of legislation and done that part of it via "reconciliation" The result of doing it that way it would have just been Medicaid and there would have been no such thing as "expanded Medicaid" it would have been all or nothing like had been hoped and all those "red state governors" would have only had two choices, reject Medicaid which they ALL still have the ability to do but they would not have been able to split the difference and "not expand" and the lawsuit they won that gave them that ability/choice would have never got off the ground. A side benefit of that is that those CBO estimates would have been MUCH closer to being right because they were based on all 50 states going to "expanded Medicaid"

The next "flexibilty" driven mistakes was allowing all 50 states to set up their own exchanges and their own web sites and allowing states far far too long to "opt out" The main reason that "healthcare.gov" was as overwhelmed as it was early on is because it was designed with the idea that almost all of the states would run their won and just as importantly "try to make them work" like we saw with KYNECT. Most of the sate exchanges that failed early on was because they were in states where the governors did not really give a shit and had one just so they can say they had one IE "they tried" but undermined it from the start and if healthcare.gov had been designed to be the only game in town it would have worked from the start the way in was working by the end of the year.

Last in order to allow the insurance sold in each state to conform to the laws of that state they never developed any plans that would have met the requirements of all 50 states and exceeded those of most states and had those plans available on healthcare.gov. That would have fallen short of true "public option" which frankly should have been an option too but it would have been "selling insurance across state lines" which IS something that certain provisions of the ACA "encourage"

Those things would have made the ACA LESS Flexible but it would not be "failing" to the extent it is today had they done those things.
 
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deleted15807

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As Obama said the Senate plan is not really a health care bill at all.

Tucked inside the Republican bill to replace Obamacare is a plan to impose a radical diet on a 52-year-old program that insures nearly one in five Americans.

The bill, of course, would modify changes to the health system brought by the Affordable Care Act. But it would also permanently restructure Medicaid, which covers tens of millions of poor or disabled Americans, including millions who are living in nursing homes with conditions like Alzheimer’s or the aftereffects of a stroke.

“This is the most consequential change in 50 years for low-income people’s health care,” said Joan Alker, the executive director of the Center for Children and Families at Georgetown University. “This is a massive change that has hardly been discussed.”

G.O.P. Health Plan Is Really a Rollback of Medicaid
Clueless Trump, of course, has no idea apparently what his own party is up to:

Yes, Trump definitely called the Republicans’ health-care bill ‘mean’
 
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deleted15807

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Don't let facts get in the way Kellyanne as most conservatives do :

"Among Medicaid adults (including parents and childless adults — the group targeted by the Medicaid expansion) nearly 8 in 10 live in working families, and a majority are working themselves." Fifty-nine percent of them work either part- or full-time. Their jobs, however, do not offer health insurance.