The state of Iraq

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by col, Nov 19, 2006.

  1. col

    col Member

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    I didn't know where to put this so I thought I'd create a new thread for discussion about the current situation in Iraq. There is a lot of talk about how if the coalition troops pull out the country will fall into a 'state of Civil War'. Unfortunately the situation already looks like it has degenerated into Civil War and the US and Britain are just unwilling to admit it.

    I caught a repeat of the Channel 4 UK television programme Death Squads of Iraq on Friday night and that was very enlightening. Everyone probably knows the basics of the situation already but it was the first time I'd really been given a coherent account of what is going on between Sunni and Shia. I'll try and summarise the feelings I got from the programme.

    So - we are supporting the 'democratic' (i.e. manipulated according to the interests of the occupiers) government in their fight against Sunni insurgants that are said to be being supported by Al Qaeda. We are doing this by putting prominent Shia policitians in positions of power within the government, often over the objections of British and American observers who know the character of certain ministers and have severe reservations about their motives. This gives the opportunity for a certain Shia minister (he was named in the programme but unfortunately I've forgotten it - he is in an extremely prominent position however) to give their personal militias some form of legitimacy by fast tracking them through training to become members of Iraq's police force. They are now being used to systematically clear Sunni inhabitants from the area (collecting people based on having a typically 'Sunni' name etc) by killing most and causing the rest to flee in fear of their lives.

    There are Sunni insurgants against the occupying force and the 'democractic' government, but little attention appears to be made towards tracking them down. The impression I got from the television programme was that if a car bomb goes off and kills Shia people then the death squads go and indiscriminantly attack Sunnis.

    So what we as occupiers seem to be doing is on the same principle as other conflicts we have previously got involved in, from Israel to Iran (which suggests we haven't learnt anything) - we are supporting one set of people (who have their own motives for cooperation that our governments are not seeing, or rather pretending not to see) against another because we see the other people (in this case the Sunni's who are apparently supported by Al Qaeda, but we could substitute them for Palestinians or the democratic government of Iran which we helped to topple unfortunately causing the Islamic revolution in that country in 1979) are more of a threat.

    And judging by that Blair interview on Al Qaeda that's been on the news this weekend, famous for the part where he 'agrees' that the policy on Iraq has been a disaster but much more important for how he goes on to say that Shia elements in the police are supported by Iran - we are being fed a bunch of lies by people who actually approved the placement of the Shia elements that are systematically wiping out Iraq's Sunni population into Iraq's 'democractic' government in the first place. Probably this was said by Blair to add some more 'proof' to lay the groundwork for a hoped for attack on Iran.

    Unfortunately history has proved that whenever we (i.e. US and Britain) has supported one group over another because it was in our interests to do so at the time, or we felt the other group was more of a threat, we have created a much worse situation. We have to remember that we supported Osama Bin Laden (trained and supplied him) until he made the break with us, our policies destroyed Iran's chance for democracy at the end of the 70s, and even if we didn't intend an Islamic regime to rise out of it one did.

    Sadly our governments then prove hypocritical in criticising other governments (and indirectly the populations of their countries) for being in power when they are often there as a direct result of our meddling. Unfortunately it seems that we are currently going the same old route and are again trying to back one group over another behind the scenes.

    So what should we do? Pull out ? Perhaps we should - at least we wouldn't be supporting one side in its systematic wiping out of a group of people. By our presence we are complicating the situation with vested interests, not creating a stable democracy - simply because a democracy cannot be created through appointing unelected representatives. It is similar to my saying "Tell me what you favourite film is - out of Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street and Saw" - you might hate all the films but you have no other choice in the matter but the three given you. This is the type of 'democracy' we have imposed on Iraq.
     
  2. SpeedoGuy

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    Careful there. col. If you dare question the rationale, motives, methods or goals of our respective nations' occupation of Iraq the spin machine will label you as:

    * unpatriotic.
    * weak on security.
    * out of touch with reality.
    * hating western-style democratic values.
    * a dupe of the liberal media propaganda machine.
    * having no better plan of your own to put forth.
    * not supporting your nation's current leadership merely out of spite.
    * wanting Islamic jihadists to topple the west and dominate the world.
    * hating Israel.
    * not supporting the troops.

    Pick one or all. Bon apetite!
     
  3. B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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    Oh, phew. You meant the situation in Iraq. I was thinking perhaps we had annexed Iraq as the 51st State and I hadn't heard about it. Sometimes they do sneak in referendums during midterm elections under the radar...
     
  4. rob_just_rob

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    While the situation is quite sad - well, it's totally fucked up, let's not mince words - I do feel somewhat vindicated. I was calling 'civil war' when the occupation was in its earliest days, the soldiers-handing-out-candy-to US-flag-waving-children phase, and was ridiculed for it.

    Pull out soon. Not pulling out just delays the inevitable.
     
  5. B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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    Is anyone else reading the news that Syria might be involved in trying to restore order in Iraq now, and that we might bring in Iran, too? haha... fucking beautiful. We depose Saddam, a man with virtually no terrorist ties at all from power, under the auspices that he posed some kind of imminent threat to US national security... and now because the country is falling apart Syria is going to come in like they did in Lebanon or, worse, Iran might come in and try to restore some kind of civility. The two biggest terrorist sponsors in the region if you don't count the Hamas-run PNA. Granted, either may do a better job of restoring order than we could, but will George Bush still be able to keep a straight face when he says "American is safer!" For that matter, will all the white-house-parroting talking heads out there be prepared to come up with different questions, when the answer to their old standby "do you think we'd be better off with Saddam still in power" becomes a resounding "yes!" ?
     
  6. SpeedoGuy

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    I have read it. If true, it would mean the the Bush administration has reversed itself and is now considering talking with and working with states it has labeled terrorist and/or part of the Axis of Evil.

    BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran and Syria urged to help Iraq
     
  7. col

    col Member

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    I think I'm all of those things Speedoguy :wink:

    I think we've just past the turning point in that now both Bush and Blair are acknowledging things need to take a different course (even if they're trying to pretend things are still fine). Before all the Republicans or Blair supporters could at least say "well it looks bad, but they must have some sort of overarching plan that they're not telling us about that is worth the current problems". Now unfortunately it is obvious that they have been blundering about in the dark from the off - it is a victory for those of us who saw how stupid what they were doing was and said the politicians were idiots who didn't have a clue what they were doing, but an extremely hollow one.

    However I get the feeling the Bush camp is saying that things might deterioate into Civil War as a face saving tactic. If they are forced to pull troops out they can then say "look at the state Iraq is in now - we should have stayed and these damn Democrats caused us to leave", whereas admitting that Iraq has been imploding for the last three years would damn their government.
     
  8. speshk

    speshk New Member

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    Situation F U B A R.

    Time to:

    1. Set a timetable for pullout.

    2. Observe the new paradigm.

    3. Draw conclusions.

    4. Deal.

    What else can you do when you've lost credibility?

    At least the American people acted in good faith, if not our leadership.
     
  9. sargon20

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    Don't forget Speedguy the new one 'It's all the Iraqi's fault. They just aren't ready for democracy and freedom'.
     
  10. JustAsking

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    And....

    * Ann Coulter will label you a "Cut and Run" Liberal.
    * The Discovery Institute will stop its all important scientific research on Creationism for a moment and call you a dogmatic Darwinist.
    * Ted Haggard will.... Oh yeah, never mind.
     
  11. SpeedoGuy

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    Agreed. I won't deny there's a part of me that's pleased to see the cowboy in the White House taken down a peg. However, the brief thrill of watching the Bush administration humbled is far overridden by dismay over the lives and treasure squandered in Iraq, not to mention the drubbing U.S. credibility appears poised to take in the aftermath.

    Yes indeed. Let the backpeddling begin.

    Other contingency plans to save face...er...I mean... adaptation to unforeseen events, are being formed. Rumsfeld's departure is one example. Blaming Democratic control of Congress provides another. Choosing to follow whatever face-saving recomendations the Iraq Study Group publishes is yet another.
     
  12. chico8

    chico8 New Member

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    Whatever happened to annie? Is she lying low because she flaunted the voting laws in Florida? Has she indeed, cut and run?
     
  13. JustAsking

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    Her nasty ignorant book dropped off the best seller list like it never existed. And Barack Obama's latest is #1, and his last book is #4 on the paperback list. I think she knows when the wind is in the wrong direction.
     
  14. D_Humper E Bogart

    D_Humper E Bogart New Member

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    Can someone tell me if the oil shipments are getting though?

    Well someone's got to get priorities right! :p
     
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