The State of Israel should be dismantled...

[tripod]

meaning?.....i'm not trying to start an argument?

Forgive me for sounding like a jerk, but your statement seemed flippant and dismissive of Palestinian life. The school should have NEVER been targeted plain and simple.

 

[thekevin_7979]

who cares what the press says every one knows there full of it

 

[mitchymo]

Forgive me for sounding like a jerk, but your statement seemed flippant and dismissive of Palestinian life. The school should have NEVER been targeted plain and simple.

Your right that schools 'SHOULD' never be targeted (hospitals, care homes also)

Israel are not fighting a simple battle though, if they were fighting a nation the rules may be adhered to (note i said 'may')
Israel need to send out a strong message to Hamas, that they cannot hide anywhere without retaliation, this may (again) lead the Palestinian people to question the methods of Hamas knowing that their lives are being played with just to achieve a selfish agenda.

If you look at the West Bank there seems to be no physical agression towards Israel as a result of its attack on Gaza suggesting that even among other Palestinians there is no support for Hamas, the group are terrorists in their behaviour and i'm sure will lose support among those in the region who are not impressionable, niave, foolish or plain stupid.
And even if the opposite happens at least Israel has shown that it will only be pushed so far before all hell breaks loose.....who knows, this assault on Gaza may prove to be the catalyst for the longest upheld ceasefire ever!

 

[Jason]

If you look at the West Bank there seems to be no physical agression towards Israel as a result of its attack on Gaza suggesting that even among other Palestinians there is no support for Hamas, the group are terrorists in their behaviour and i'm sure will lose support among those in the region who are not impressionable, niave, foolish or plain stupid.

An interesting point which might even be right.

Most Arab countries are not democracies. The people who matter are their leaders, who tend to be well-educated and intelligent - they are indeed not "impressionable, naive, foolish or plain stupid". They cannot approve of Hamas. Of course they will posture and bluster for their home audience, but in the end they must be horrified by the mess in Gaza, and horrified at the part Hamas has played in bringing this situation to Gaza.

 

[Drifterwood]

Are you able to see things behind the headlines?

Yes Hamas is a Jihadi organisation. But what do you think it took for a people to vote for them? What would you have thought if a majority of the Northern Irish voted for Sinn Fein?

They have been firing homemade firecrackers into Israel that have caused almost negligible damage, certainly damage that Israel has been happpy to bank. The number of rockets sounds terrifying until you look at the damage of these home made devices. Now Israel has a death count of 750 to 13 and the opportunity to smash Gaza to its knees whilst claiming it is acting in defense. Don't underestimate Israel.

Israel stands condemned by the United Nations, Amnesty International and now The Red Cross. Did you see that Norwegian Doctor on TV accusing them of murder? Yet their sharp suited spin doctors appear on TV and deny everything. I am sorry, but I find it sickening.

 

[Elmer Gantry]

Yes, the spin doctors are alive and well even in The Lucky Country.
Hamas missiles = war

Click on the link on the authors name and tell me how fair and impartial these pearls of wisdom are.

 

[Elmer Gantry]

Israel are not fighting a simple battle though, if they were fighting a nation the rules may be adhered to (note i said 'may')

Let's also invesitagte this concept. Under what pretence are they in Gaza to start with?

Did they declare war on Palestine?

 

[lovenuts50]

israel is the greatest obstacle to peace in the middle east and the greatest danger to the region. we are to blame. we allowed this country to be created on the backs of the indigenous population. hamas and hezbollah are no saints either. fubar

 

[B_starinvestor]

israel is the greatest obstacle to peace in the middle east and the greatest danger to the region. we are to blame. we allowed this country to be created on the backs of the indigenous population. hamas and hezbollah are no saints either. fubar

Hehehe. Hehe. Isreal is the obstacle to peace? Lovenuts, what would you do if your neighbor were launching missiles into your yard? While your kids were out there playing?

Truly, if anyone you know would allow someone to launch missiles into your family's property and take no action....nevermind.

I hope Isreal blasts the fuck out of Hamas and Hezbollah. I hope they blast them right off the map. And I hope Iran takes note. Oh, and I'm not Jewish.

 

[Drifterwood]

Truly, if anyone you know would allow someone to launch missiles into your family's property and take no action....nevermind.

I hope Isreal blasts the fuck out of Hamas and Hezbollah. I hope they blast them right off the map. And I hope Iran takes note. Oh, and I'm not Jewish.

And yet when atrocities have been perpetrated on the other side, you say nothing.

Search | Human Rights Watch

Search www.amnesty.org | Amnesty International

 

[B_starinvestor]

The solution in Northern Ireland has been to create an assembly with the membership so constructed that both Unionists and Republicans have real power and there must be agreement for policies.

Of course a prerequisite was that on the Republican side Sinn Fein IRA had to agree to a cessation of terrorist murder. Even so the Northern Ireland assembly has been suspended for much of its life as group of Sinn Fein IRA were caught plotting to murder their Unionist colleagues. Anyway the assembly functions under the umbrella of a politically stable United Kingdom, and with a lot of support from outside the UK, including Ireland and the USA.

It is an interesting model, and with lots of reservations does more or less seem to be working. There aren't bombs going off in Northern Ireland, and there is an economic renaissance in Belfast. But the idea of Jews and Arabs in the Holy Land making such a thing work is at the moment far fetched. A starting point would have to be a complete cessation of violence and disarming by Hamas. Then there would have to be real will by the peoples of both sides to make it work.

The two-state solution seems much simpler. I have wondered if a three-state solution would be even simpler - and therefore more likely to work.

Big difference:


1) The IRA recognizes the right of Britain to exist.
2) The IRA Charter does not state that the organization's goal is to "raise the banner of the Catholic Church over every inch of the British Isles."
3) Article 22 of the IRA Charter does not claim that England is responsible for the French revolution, Russian revolution, colonialism, and both world wars.
4) Article 32 of the IRA Charter does not reference a book of fabricated anti-British conspiracy theories similar to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

 

[Jason]

Big difference:


1) The IRA recognizes the right of Britain to exist.
2) The IRA Charter does not state that the organization's goal is to "raise the banner of the Catholic Church over every inch of the British Isles."
3) Article 22 of the IRA Charter does not claim that England is responsible for the French revolution, Russian revolution, colonialism, and both world wars.
4) Article 32 of the IRA Charter does not reference a book of fabricated anti-British conspiracy theories similar to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Yes starinvestor I think you are right. My point was that the Peace Process in Northern Ireland has worked (more or less) but only just, and that's from a better starting point than Israel/Palestine, with a lot of good will on both sides, and almost entirely constructive interventions from outside countries. By contrast I just don't see how a Peace Process can begin to work in Israel/Palestine. Rather I think a two-state solution (or even three-state solution) is the best that can be hoped for.

Hamas demands that Israel should vanish and Palestine stretch from the sea to the River Jordan (statement made on BBC "Hard Talk" last night by a Hamas spokesman). This concept seem incompatible with the two-state solution. Either the world agrees the movement of the Jewish population of Israel to another country, or Hamas has to be broken. The former isn't going to happen (nor should it) so Hamas absolutely must be broken.

I'm horrified by the scenes of carnage in Gaza. I tend to think there must be a better way - but I also tend to think that better way has to come from countries outside of Israel.

Egypt has blood on her hands for permitting the export of rockets from Israel to Gaza. The things are too big to fit in a briefcase, and the Egypt-Gaza border is tiny - Egypt could have stopped this.

The Arab world in general has not provided leadership.

Russia is giving some support to Iran, and therefore at one remove to Hamas.

Many countries - including the UK and US - have taken all the photo opportunities of the Middle East peace process but have not taken the hard decisions. Much the same goes for the whole UN. It needed some outside power to prevent weapons passing from Egypt to Gaza. It needed someone like the UN to declare invalid the candidates standing for Hamas in the Palestinian election (in the UK a terrorist group such as the IRA cannot stand in an election because it is a terrorist group. Yes I know Sinn Fein is the political wing of IRA and has MPs, but it is a useful distinction).

Ways forward come after Hamas is broken. Maybe the best that can be hoped is that this can happen without the rest of the Middle East blowing up.

 

[Wyldgusechaz]

Lets see: Jimmy Carter tried and failed. Reagan failed, Bush 1 failed, Clinton failed and Bush 2 did not even try.

Palestinians are refugees. The UN helps refugees all over the world but does not do a thing for Palestinians refugees. Why?

 

[Stephan78]

According to the UN, Israel forces gathered Palaistineans (civilians and children) in a building and then they gave orders and the building was bombed. This is the most horryfing thing I have heard in quite some time, and as far as I know, only the Nazis were capable of doing such barbaric acts. It is quite clear that the american support towards Tel Aviv all these decades has turned the israeli governments into arrogant idiots that think that they can do whatever they want unpunished.

 

[dong20]

According to the UN, Israel forces gathered Palaistineans (civilians and children) in a building and then they gave orders and the building was bombed.

I think you're being a wee bit disingenuous here. The UN is 'saying' no such thing:

"Allegra Pacheco, a senior UN official in Jerusalem who helped draft the report on the incident for OCHA, added: "We are not making an accusation of deliberate action" by the Israelis.

"We are just saying the facts. In Gaza, no civilian is safe. As long as violence continues, civilians will be injured and killed,"

Their seem to be a few variants of this report floating around, but essentially the theme is that the IDF asked people to leave one builiding and move to that of a relative (or a shelter) which was shelled 24 hrs later killing about 30. This report was made by witnesses to AP and the UN.

In short, the UN are making no accusations - merely relaying 'witnesses' reports that a building was shelled. Any sinister circumstances behind the shelling are, to my knowledge, as yet undetermined and unproven.

Uncharacteristically, the ICRC showed no such qualms when laying into the IDF although it's unclear if the ICRC's ire was drawn from the same incident. I admire their convictions, but such statements endanger their neutrality.

The IDF deny they acted this way, although guilty or not that's to be expected. Most nations tend to deny their screwups. If such an atrocity did occur, it will almost certainly be confirmed but remember that both sides have vested (and, in general - opposing) interests in acheiving the 'right' outcome in any investigation into such a serious allegation. It's too easy to reach a hasty conclusion - often one that accords with one's personal viewpoint and based on sketchy media reports.

One scenario may be that the IDF advised locals to stay indoors for their shelter perhaps pointing out what seemed like a safe building in which to shelter - prima facae reasonable advice. Alternatively the IDF were ordered in to herd people to a known location which had already been targetted.

A third (and IMO most likely) option is a total screwup; combining option 1 with a decision to target this building not knowing it was so occupied. Military communications are not infallible, one need only look at Iraq for proof that such incidents are possible.

I know little about Israeli military tactical planning in urban environments so the foregoing is mere supposition - but it seems a little unlikely that IDF foot soldiers would have intimate detailed knowledge of advance plans to shell this or that building which would have been required for this to have been a premeditated act, would it not? I'm trying to exculpate the IDF or the Palestinians - I'm merely trying to keep an open mind.

Some random news reports in this:

Israel kills 30 civilians at shelter, witnesses tell U.N. - CNN.com
UN calls for war crimes probe into IDF shelling of civilian-occupied building in Gaza - Haaretz - Israel News
Al Jazeera English - Middle East - UN probes raid on sheltering Gazans

 

[B_starinvestor]

Lets see: Jimmy Carter tried and failed. Reagan failed, Bush 1 failed, Clinton failed and Bush 2 did not even try.

Palestinians are refugees. The UN helps refugees all over the world but does not do a thing for Palestinians refugees. Why?

Of the tens of millions of refugee groups in the world, the Palestinians are the only one that has an entire dedicated UN Agency, just for them and them alone.

You might ask the refugees in Darfur and Congo what they think of the Palestinians having their very own agency, while they have none.

Are you familiar with UNRWA?

UNRWA (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) is a relief and human development agency, providing education, healthcare, social services and emergency aid to over 4.6 million refugees living in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon and the Syrian Arab Republic.
UNRWA is by far the largest UN operation in the Middle East, with over 29,000 staff, almost all of them refugees themselves, working directly to benefit their communities - as teachers, doctors, nurses or social workers.


UNRWA Official Homepage (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East)

Since 1975, the U.S. has resettled approximately 2.6 million refugees, with nearly 77% being either Indochinese or citizens of the former Soviet Union. Since the enactment of the Refugee Act of 1980, annual admissions figures have ranged from a high of 207,116 in 1980 to a low of 27,100 in 2002.

There are over 5 million Sudanese refugees, who have no agency...

There are over 4.5 million Palestinian "refugees". Palestinians are the only refugee group to have descendants granted refugee status, even though those descendants have never lived in the country they were displaced from

The US alone has resettled 2.7 million refugees in the past 33 years...sad that the Arab and Muslim world did not care to do the same for a similar number of Palestinians...there would only be half the number and things would be much better for them.

It probably wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that there are 192 member nations in the UN and 57 members are part of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC)

 

[tripod]

Of the tens of millions of refugee groups in the world, the Palestinians are the only one that has an entire dedicated UN Agency, just for them and them alone.

You might ask the refugees in Darfur and Congo what they think of the Palestinians having their very own agency, while they have none.

Ummm... the U.N. didn't remove them from their houses and property like they did with the Palestinians.

Are you familiar with UNRWA?

UNRWA (the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) is a relief and human development agency, providing education, healthcare, social services and emergency aid to over 4.6 million refugees living in the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, Jordan, Lebanon and the Syrian Arab Republic.
UNRWA is by far the largest UN operation in the Middle East, with over 29,000 staff, almost all of them refugees themselves, working directly to benefit their communities - as teachers, doctors, nurses or social workers.


UNRWA Official Homepage (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East)

Since 1975, the U.S. has resettled approximately 2.6 million refugees, with nearly 77% being either Indochinese or citizens of the former Soviet Union. Since the enactment of the Refugee Act of 1980, annual admissions figures have ranged from a high of 207,116 in 1980 to a low of 27,100 in 2002.

There are over 5 million Sudanese refugees, who have no agency...

Again, the U.N. didn't remove the Sudanese from their homeland and take all of their property away... think of what Castro did to the rich landowners of Cuba and you will get the jest of what happened to the Palestinians... 'cause you clearly have your head stuffed far up the ass of Israel and can't see daylight for shit.

There are over 4.5 million Palestinian "refugees". Palestinians are the only refugee group to have descendants granted refugee status, even though those descendants have never lived in the country they were displaced from.

Sooo, if Canada came in and took your parent's property and removed you from your homeland you shouldn't qualify for refugee status. Your parents would have most likely also lost their wealth in the process too meaning that you wouldn't have any of the advantages that you grew up with... A man without a home or wealth sounds like a refugee, but in America, we call them homeless. But in America, we haven't rounded up all of the homeless people and put them on the worst land in the region where they can grow virtually NOTHING on and have NO fucking water and build a security wall around it, shooting any homeless people that climb over the wall.

The US alone has resettled 2.7 million refugees in the past 33 years...sad that the Arab and Muslim world did not care to do the same for a similar number of Palestinians...there would only be half the number and things would be much better for them.

Have you been to an Arab country lately? The common people vary from dirt poor to lower class. Only a privileged few have educations, status and wealth... the Arab countries do NOT have the resources available to resettle all of the Palestinians, plus it is not THEIR fucking problem is it? The U.N. caused all of this mess and they should fucking clean it up.

It probably wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that there are 192 member nations in the UN and 57 members are part of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC)

That is because there are a bunch of Muslims in the world, they breed rather strongly, and what doesn this have to do with anything? Is this your conspiracy of why the U.N. doesn't like there relief efforts being bombed and their official refugee areas attacked? You are blinded by your support for Israel... it defies logic.

They are killing Palestinians 80 to 1 and hardly any of them are actual terrorists... they are killing anything that moves over there and are murdering Palestinians 80 to 1!!!!!!!

They are slaughtering them and it is fucking barbaric and inhumane.

The Israelis have truly become one of the world's BIGGEST assholes and are just Palestinian killing machines, they make me sick!!!

How could you support a first world country that is engaging in the wholesale slaughter of a virtually defenseless third world people?

Do you not have a heart?

80 to 1 Star... and 40% of the IDF's casualties have been admitted friendly fire. The Palestinians only killed maybe 6 IDF members and have lost almost 800 of their people, there are healthy amounts of innocent women and chlidren in that number.

Over 220 innocent children have been killed Star.

What, do you like killing babies?

Over 100 innocent women have been killed.

Do you have something against Palestinian women? Do you think that they are dogs and should be rounded up and exterminated?

Just where the fuck is your heart Star?

 

[B_starinvestor]

Ummm... the U.N. didn't remove them from their houses and property like they did with the Palestinians.
.........................
Just where the fuck is your heart Star?

I never want to see anyone slaughtered, murdered, maimed.....but as a soveriegn nation, Isreal has a duty to defend and protect its people...when a group launches missiles into its back yard..it was provoked, and their actions will potentially prevent behavior such as this in the future, or at least make potential aggessors think twice about the repercussions of this type of behavior.

I'm not saying, above, that I enjoy seeing Palestinians get killed. My point is that Isreal is justified in its reaction.

 

[tripod]

I never want to see anyone slaughtered, murdered, maimed.....but as a soveriegn nation, Isreal has a duty to defend and protect its people...when a group launches missiles into its back yard..it was provoked, and their actions will potentially prevent behavior such as this in the future, or at least make potential aggessors think twice about the repercussions of this type of behavior.

I'm not saying, above, that I enjoy seeing Palestinians get killed. My point is that Isreal is justified in its reaction.

I know, I was just trying to make a point... of course you don't like to see children and women being slaughtered.

But the facts are that Israel broke the cease fire when on Tuesday November 4th, they Israeli troops had entered Gaza to destroy what Israel said was a tunnel dug by militants to abduct its troops and killed six members of Hamas.

Oh man... and then the rockets started again... imagine that?

The rockets are being fired because the Palestinians are treated like human shit and are retaliating the only way that they can.

So, the Israelis get to treat the Palestinians like human garbage and then slaughter them when they get some balls and decide to retaliate?

Where is the fucking logic in that? Why must the world stand up when one fucking hair is hurt on an Israeli head? Why is one Israeli life worth sooooo much more than a Palestinian's?

It's because the goddamn Israelis think that they are God's chosen people and that they have a HUGE superiority complex!!!!!

That's why and I am fucking tired of good Americans like you giving them vocal and moral support for their inhumane actions. It makes me fucking sick.

 

[dong20]

I'm not saying, above, that I enjoy seeing Palestinians get killed. My point is that Isreal is justified in its reaction.

In one sense I'd agree a nation (or a people) has a right to defend itself - the current difficulty appears to lie in drawing a line between what constitutes legitimate defence and what, for the want of a better word, is a more vengeful - teaching of a lesson.

In another, looking at the situation from a [possible] future historical perspective isn't what Israel is doing today broadly similar to what a fledgling USA did to her indigenous peoples, or the Australians and so on?

There are differences in detail, certainly. But isn't the overall theme - the subjugation of one people by another, the removal of 'their' land and rights, coralling them together for the purposes of control all by the use of overwhelming force something such actions have in common? Why should Israel (or anyone) be surprised if the Palestinians don't submit any more easily - I'd hate to quote Dylan for fear of cliche but you see what I mean?

Of course, that historical perspective may take some time to evolve, with much denial involved along the way. Again, another commonality.