The State of Israel should be dismantled...

tripod

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Northern Ireland is not the same as Israel/Gaza because, let's see...
-the British Army/UVF/etc. could not kick the shit out of the IRA.

Well, they would have if they waged bombing campaigns and engaged in the wholesale slaughter of the people of North Ireland, you would have seen an IRA that was demolished and decidedly more militant. If the British Military used white phosphorous on the Irish, events might have turned out quite differently.

Well, tripod, you should edit yourself better ... because you make points that should be made, but when you get personal, it's hard to hear you, man.
And I'd like to hear those points.
Just sayin'.

Well, what I was attempting to do rather clumsily, was point out that the logic you were following has an ugly underbelly.

Someone makes a statement based on a certain logic and then the other person says, "good, then by your logic... blah blah blah" to point out an aspect of the logic that led to the statement. It is not exactly a hypothetical... I wish I new what linguistic term to call it. I mean, obviously you don't want anyone exterminated. I was just pointing out that your logic could lead to that very reality.
 

hotcakes22

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But that's completely moot. The British Army would never have been permitted by America or even its own government to conduct such a campaign. in the warfare that did occur, the IRA killed way more British Army/RUC than the latter did IRA.
 

Jason

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Northern Ireland is not the same as Israel/Gaza because, let's see...
-the British Army/UVF/etc. could not kick the shit out of the IRA
-the IRA are not religious fanatics
-while Israel did have a Mideast colony historically and then lost it, England has no ancient claim to NI, it is just the dregs of colonialism. they hardly even want it anymore
-the two communities in NI have intermarried somewhat despite being polarized; there is a subset of the population who are somewhat apathetic to what country they belong to and who would go with the richer country, ergo Britain

powersharing will not work in Israel/Gaza.

Of course Northern Ireland is not the same as Israel/Gaza. But both situations are similar in being long-term problems which need a solution. Both have an ancient history - the English expansion into Ireland in the twelfth century and the (mainly Scottish) plantation of Ulster and elsewhere in the seventeenth century. Both have set one population against another, both have created hatreds, both have led to bloodshed. The situation is sufficiently similar to be worth looking at for possible solutions in Israel/Gaza.

In Northern Ireland the Peace Process started by the 1998 Good Friday Agreement and its enaction in 1999 is now a decade old. There is a very long list of serious problems with the Peace Process, but after a decade we can also see real progress. The political framework is in place - Ireland accepting that Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and a power-sharing Assembly to govern Northern Ireland. Belfast (and NI as a whole) has demonstrably boomed in the last decade (newspapers have been full of statistics, and they must be on the web - I'm not hunting - Northern Ireland is the fastest growing region of the UK). The level of fear and intimidation experienced by both communities has receded. There is real good news.

Posts by hotcakes22 and Big Dave indicate how far there is still to go in Northern Ireland (and how far Israel/Gaza have to go for any solution). Big Dave speaks of Catholic children being bullied and spat at by protestants, assaulted by British soldiers, of the real and shocking abuse the Nationalist/Catholic community did suffer. There are plenty of examples of abuse of Protestants/Unionists as well. It is all wrong, and the hurt suffered by both ides is very real, and both sides think they have been hurt more and that the other side started it. But the only way forward is the Peace Process.

I'm not a fan of the European Union - but its impact on the whole island of Ireland has to be significant. Both Northern Ireland and Ireland now have the same ultimate court (Brussels), both have a mass of similar or identical legislation, there is freedom of movement (there are no border posts), health, education, pension and benefits can all be taken up in both territories. In practical terms the differences are smaller than they have been since partition (1922). The argument for the Nationalist community of Northern Ireland in wanting to be part of Ireland is one made by the heart rather than because of the material quallity of life.

The fear in Northern Ireland is that the terrorists will come back, and the bitter dispute flare up. But with every year of peace that gets less and less likely. The "honour" of the IRA required that they should be unbeaten, and that requirement has been satisfied. Historians of future centuries will debate just when they were effectively beaten. While vigilance is needed to ensure that the IRA or a splinter group don't come back the reality is that they have already been beaten - beaten by the people of the Irish Republic who voted so overwhelmingly to acknowledge that Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

Israel/Gaza have a long road ahead - and I think hotcakes22 and Big Dave have indicated just how long. Of course Israel/Gaza are looking at separation in the two-state solution (rather than the power-sharing of Northern Ireland), but Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to get along nonetheless and co-operate economically. The present war is far worse than anything Northern Ireland experienced in the twentieth entury (Ireland of course experienced the catstrophe of the 1845-51 potato famine, and in a sense we are still suffering the legacy of this disaster). The comparison between Northern Ireland and Israel/Gaza is less than perfect, but there is some value in it nonetheless. It indicates the requirements of a way forward:
* Palestine acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and confirms borders.
* Israel enables Palestine to claim victory and so save face. (That's one for the diplomats to puzzle over!)
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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The comparison between Northern Ireland and Israel/Gaza is less than perfect, but there is some value in it nonetheless. It indicates the requirements of a way forward:
* Palestine acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and confirms borders.
* Israel enables Palestine to claim victory and so save face. (That's one for the diplomats to puzzle over!)

Awfully tricky, but I suppose those are two essentials, Jason.
Good post.
 

vince

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But fuckin-A if Rubi didn't get the soapbox thing totally right... I am a goddamn blowhard at times and need to edit myself better, but hey, we can't all be perfect. Damn if Rubi didn't call a spade a spade! lol!!!!!
It's ok Tripod. I know how you feel. I have refrained from posting in this thread because this war pisses me off so much. The injustices put on the native people of Israel/Palestine rank right up there with anything done to any other people in the past 100 years. ANY people... If you know what I mean. That, coupled with ignorance, bigotry, media filtering, and profiteering that surround the whole mid-east issue, is just too much for me to remain civil for long. Therefore I have to keep my mouth shut as much as possible. Some very nasty things could be said here.
 

BIG_DAVE

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Of course Northern Ireland is not the same as Israel/Gaza. But both situations are similar in being long-term problems which need a solution. Both have an ancient history - the English expansion into Ireland in the twelfth century and the (mainly Scottish) plantation of Ulster and elsewhere in the seventeenth century. Both have set one population against another, both have created hatreds, both have led to bloodshed. The situation is sufficiently similar to be worth looking at for possible solutions in Israel/Gaza.

The English expansion into Ireland? thats polite way of saying for 800 years murdered, raped, pillaged, burnt whole cities to the grown and butchered men women and children with no remorse or regret.

In Northern Ireland the Peace Process started by the 1998 Good Friday Agreement and its enaction in 1999 is now a decade old. There is a very long list of serious problems with the Peace Process, but after a decade we can also see real progress. The political framework is in place - Ireland accepting that Northern Ireland is part of the UK, and a power-sharing Assembly to govern Northern Ireland. Belfast (and NI as a whole) has demonstrably boomed in the last decade (newspapers have been full of statistics, and they must be on the web - I'm not hunting - Northern Ireland is the fastest growing region of the UK). The level of fear and intimidation experienced by both communities has receded. There is real good news.

newspapers are full of statistics all right the very same newspapers that said the guilford 4 and the Birmingham 6 were guilty. if you believe what you read in that fair play to you, i wish i could bury my head in the sand like that. take it from someone who's seen it all before and after. FUCK ALL HAS CHANGED.

Posts by hotcakes22 and Big Dave indicate how far there is still to go in Northern Ireland (and how far Israel/Gaza have to go for any solution). Big Dave speaks of Catholic children being bullied and spat at by protestants, assaulted by British soldiers, of the real and shocking abuse the Nationalist/Catholic community did suffer. There are plenty of examples of abuse of Protestants/Unionists as well. It is all wrong, and the hurt suffered by both ides is very real, and both sides think they have been hurt more and that the other side started it. But the only way forward is the Peace Process.

aye many loyalists suffered abuse hurting their fists busting open catholics when they were captured and tortured to death at random. let's also not forget the batons that were damaged by the oh so brave RUC/PSNI beating family's down. The I.R.A. gave umpteen warnings to the loyalist paramilitaries to stop the killings at random before striking out at them in the kingsmill massacre. it stopped the killings there and then. more damage was done to protestants by their so called freedom fighters "policing" their neighborhood.

I'm not a fan of the European Union - but its impact on the whole island of Ireland has to be significant. Both Northern Ireland and Ireland now have the same ultimate court (Brussels), both have a mass of similar or identical legislation, there is freedom of movement (there are no border posts), health, education, pension and benefits can all be taken up in both territories. In practical terms the differences are smaller than they have been since partition (1922). The argument for the Nationalist community of Northern Ireland in wanting to be part of Ireland is one made by the heart rather than because of the material quality of life.

again you haven't a fucking clue have you? one of the heart? the British police our streets and everyone of them is a bigot a loyalist and a fucking bully intent on making life miserable for catholics.

The fear in Northern Ireland is that the terrorists will come back, and the bitter dispute flare up. But with every year of peace that gets less and less likely. The "honour" of the IRA required that they should be unbeaten, and that requirement has been satisfied. Historians of future centuries will debate just when they were effectively beaten. While vigilance is needed to ensure that the IRA or a splinter group don't come back the reality is that they have already been beaten - beaten by the people of the Irish Republic who voted so overwhelmingly to acknowledge that Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

right the IRA will be back whether it's in 2 years or 20. sinn fein is going back on all it said and with everyday that passes is looking more and more like they've no intention of finding a united Ireland.

also....

THE GENERAL OF THE BRITISH ARMY SAID THEY NEVER DEFEATED THE I.R.A.!!!!!!!!

you really are talking for the sake of talking because you have no idea what your talking about.

Israel/Gaza have a long road ahead - and I think hotcakes22 and Big Dave have indicated just how long. Of course Israel/Gaza are looking at separation in the two-state solution (rather than the power-sharing of Northern Ireland), but Israelis and Palestinians are going to have to get along nonetheless and co-operate economically. The present war is far worse than anything Northern Ireland experienced in the twentieth entury (Ireland of course experienced the catstrophe of the 1845-51 potato famine, and in a sense we are still suffering the legacy of this disaster). The comparison between Northern Ireland and Israel/Gaza is less than perfect, but there is some value in it nonetheless. It indicates the requirements of a way forward:
* Palestine acknowledge the right of Israel to exist and confirms borders.
* Israel enables Palestine to claim victory and so save face. (That's one for the diplomats to puzzle over!)

we experienced just as worse in the south when england invade all those years ago and in present day on a smaller scale. But make no mistake what Israel are infilcting at the min is exatley the same as the british on us and the people of palestine have my full support.
 
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"History has passed it by"

Interesting interview of Bob Simon, of "60 minutes", on Charlie Rose. He talks about an upcoming report on "60 minutes" about the West Bank and whether a two state conclusion is still possible.

His conclusion is that the number of settlers and their infrastructure make it impossible for any Israeli PM to evacuate them as part of a two state solution. The (unpalatable) alternatives are "giving the palestinians [in the WB and gaze] the [israeli] vote," expelling the palestinians across the Jordan, or "apartheid."

The only possibility for an Israeli PM to stand up to the settlers according to Simon is for the American president to demand their evacuation or all aid and loan guarantees will be cut off.

Charlie Rose - Andrea Mitchell and Bob Simon discuss Gaza • videosift.com
 

dong20

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The English expansion into Ireland? thats polite way of saying for 800 years murdered, raped, pillaged, burnt whole cities to the grown and butchered men women and children with no remorse or regret.

newspapers are full of statistics all right the very same newspapers that said the guilford 4 and the Birmingham 6 were guilty. if you believe what you read in that fair play to you, i wish i could bury my head in the sand like that. take it from someone who's seen it all before and after. FUCK ALL HAS CHANGED.

aye many loyalists suffered abuse hurting their fists busting open catholics when they were captured and tortured to death at random. let's also not forget the batons that were damaged by the oh so brave RUC/PSNI beating family's down. The I.R.A. gave umpteen warnings to the loyalist paramilitaries to stop the killings at random before striking out at them in the kingsmill massacre. it stopped the killings there and then. more damage was done to protestants by their so called freedom fighters "policing" their neighborhood.


again you haven't a fucking clue have you? one of the heart? the British police our streets and everyone of them is a bigot a loyalist and a fucking bully intent on making life miserable for catholics.


right the IRA will be back whether it's in 2 years or 20. sinn fein is going back on all it said and with everyday that passes is looking more and more like they've no intention of finding a united Ireland.

also....

THE GENERAL OF THE BRITISH ARMY SAID THEY NEVER DEFEATED THE I.R.A.!!!!!!!!

you really are talking for the sake of talking because you have no idea what your talking about.

we experienced just as worse in the south when england invade all those years ago and in present day on a smaller scale. But make no mistake what Israel are infilcting at the min is exatley the same as the british on us and the people of palestine have my full support.

You sound so full of hate, perhaps justified but hatred is seldom a force for positive change. I know people in both the Republic and NI who do not share your anger, or in many cases, have tried put it to one side because they realise it doesn't help. I have been to neither for some time so can't speak with authority about the specifics of day to day life in either - but I do know very few who don't recongnise that hating the English of today for events not far from a millennia ago is entirely irrational. How do you feel about Germans or French or Danes for example?

The situation in NI may yet unravel, something that you seem almost eager for (forgive me for reading 'between the lines' here, do you advocate a return to violence?) - but that's surely more likely if people cannot learn to accept the present, imperfect peace - while (hopefully) learning from the mistakes of the past to help it endure. Regardless of the fact that it was rooted in a fundemental wrong the violence in NI was not so one sided as you assert and I have read your increasingly hate filled and generalising posts with dismay.

It is such attitudes that prevent any real progress in Gaza because vhen viewed objectively in the long run all hatred does is perpetuate a cycle of violence which in turn leads to more hatred ... it's especially sad in Gaza because it's passed down from father to son (or daughter) and worn as a badge of honour - sold to too many as a surefire ticket to paradise in a brief flash of semtex. Hate should not be hereditary, our children should not be used as tools to deliver the hate of their parents.

Regardless of historic root causes outside living memory, today both sides in the situation are in the wrong and neither side can resolve the situation without the cooperation of the other, in Gaza and in NI. In both cases I see no way to acheive peace through a military solution.

One last observation, for one who appears to hate the English and all they stand for so vehemently, I find your stated locale a tad ironic. :smile:
 

hotcakes22

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I'm sure you mean well but in this instance I'm not convinced you're more than a well-intending (though obdurate) person who has grazed some facts off wikipedia. Progress has been made in NI in various ways but the model used is incompatible with Palestine, which you wisely recognize. As for NI being the fastest-growing region in the UK, that is a trite statistic because the UK, like so much of Europe, is seeming more and more effete by the day.

If, "The argument for the Nationalist community of Northern Ireland in wanting to be part of Ireland is one made by the heart rather than because of the material quallity of life," then many Unionists want to remain with the UK simply because of material quality of life.

A recurring flaw in your arguments lies in your implication that one day the Irish people were "enlightened," began singing God Save the Queen and realized that Navan Fort was truly as English as Buckingham Palace. That never happened. The Irish made a concession in recognizing the legal scenario of Northern Ireland. It was never about conceding justification. The British/Unionists also made concessions, i.e. when a ton of convicted Republican murderers walked free after Good Friday.

As for your suspicion that Sinn Fein is funding Hamas, that is unfounded. Years ago someone in the Falls painted a mural expressing consolidarity with the Palestinians. This was alongside a ton of left-wing murals (i.e. one condemning America for turning its back on Cuba, one condemning Bush, etc.) and so some Protestant in the Shankill painted one expressing consolidarity with the Israelis. It was almost a bit funny - the dumb rivalry of it. The IRA received weapons from Libya in the 80s not out of some Muslim agenda but because the leader of Libya's kid had been killed because of Reagan/Thatcher and he wanted revenge. Sinn Fein and the IRA haven't the money to fund Hamas, nor the will (even if they likely sympathize with the Palestinians). Northern Ireland is probably the most xenophobic place in Europe.

Finally, you really must stop utilizing people from Ulster as specimens of hatred in order to prove some moral purpose. It is corny as hell.
 

Jason

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How do you feel about Germans or French or Danes for example?

I love it!

The Vikings founded the city of Dublin on land they had conquered, driving out or enslaving the Irish people. There doesn't seem to be any anti-Viking feeling in Ireland today. Despite the best efforts of a couple of good museums in Dublin I doubt the majority of Irish people ever think about it.

The Vikings also got as far as Jerusalem in the Crusades. They were mercenaries rather than a people fighting under their own flag, but they were there in some numbers. No doubt they did some horrible things to the people they found in Jerusalem, both Arabs and Jews. Unless anyone knows better I suggest this is forgotten in Israel and Palestine.

We all select from history to establish our national myths. This has been the bug-bear of the Northern Ireland problem. Both sides have learnt a version of history, one which encourages their sense of grievance. Building a Northern Ireland which truly embraces the two communities requires emphasising a shared history.

Israel and Palestine are doing their own share of mythologising history. They need to find different myths, or even histories. There must be some proud examples of Jewish-Arab co-operation.
 
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I like your post, Jason.
But I do want to make one point.
Only desperation might bring most people to such a pass.
But you also see the influence of dangerous ideas and religious notions.
The idea that an early death in the cause is a free pass to Paradise changes everything.
If our purpose in life is to so comport ourselves that we go to Paradise, isn't this express elevator too good an offer to pass up?
Wouldn't it be irrational not to take it?
That said, desperation is no doubt a big part of the equation as well.

Until these poisonous eschatological notions are punctured, reason won't have much room to play in.

It seems to me that more and more Muslim religious authorities are speaking out against the idea of martyrdom in these political contexts.
Not a flood, but a steady increase ...
Or maybe I'm just foolishly hopeful.

In truth, it's not that at all.

Fat, rich, middle class people don't go blowing themselves or others to kingdom come. A billion Muslims throughout the world in relative peace despite the Koran urging them to strike down or circumcise infidels yadda yadda. The population needs to be desperate enough already for them to adopt this virgins-in-heaven thing. There needs to be the right soil for the seed to take root. I think you've put the cart before the horse. The martyr ideal is a product of marginalization and the martyrs will only disappear when Palestinians feel there is hope for themselves and their children. The only way to do that is to give them true power over themselves. Right now the Palestinians are no better than helots.
 
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And as to the Irish thing....

The Republic doesn't give anything more than a token nod to the north. They really don't care terribly what happens up there. They're all convinced that their Catholic breeding population will eventually swing the vote to the Republican side anyway. Removing the offending language from the Irish constitution was, for the vast majority of Irish citizens, a mere formality. London has said, not outright but in private, that they would like nothing more than to be rid of the north.

There is hope there, I don't deny it. Ulster is a slightly happier place these days. Now that the ghastly Paisley is dead (if only to be replaced by his spawn), I'm waiting for the retirement of McGuinness and Gerry Adams. These supporters and cultivators of violence need to be put out to pasture ASAP and allow newer, younger, more savvy leadership to develop. The new leadership needs to focus on economic and social stability, if not buy-the-world-a-Coke harmony.

I agree that things in Ireland aren't as peaceful as they seem. Getting the home-rule government working required some unbelievable twisting of the law. On the other hand, nobody thought it would ever be possible to get McGuinness and Paisley into the same room together without literally killing each other so I think home rule has been more successful (in that it's lasted) than anyone imagined. If cooperation can continue, if economic standards can rise, then hope will continue.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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In truth, it's not that at all.

I would have to disagree.

Fat, rich, middle class people don't go blowing themselves or others to kingdom come.

The 9/11 extremists all came from relatively comfortable Muslim families. Nothing marginalized about them at all.
Osama bin Laden himself, it bears noting, comes from a Saudi family worth many billions.

A billion Muslims throughout the world in relative peace despite the Koran urging them to strike down or circumcise infidels yadda yadda.

Most authorities guess that the truly radical elements in the Muslim community constitute only perhaps 10 percent of the population. So of course most are living in relative peace.
In Canada, a group of young Muslims (17 of them, I believe) conceived a plot to come to Ottawa, seize and perhaps behead the prime minister, bomb infrastructure, and generally step into a comic book.
They were full of Islamist zeal.
They were also all middle class, and no doubt far more materially comfortable than most Muslims in the world (simply from having achieved middle class life in North America).
Recently, a young Muslim of Pakistani descent, living and working quite successfully in Ottawa, was convicted of conspiring with a British group to blow up targets in London. He was a software engineer, working on contract for the federal government.
Perhaps they felt marginalized. I'm sure they did. But they felt marginalized as Muslims ... members of a faith that they felt had lost its storied place under the sun and needed to regain its place to please Allah.
As you know, some of them even speak of retaking Andalusia ... the Muslim world's old possessions in Spain, which they lost many centuries ago.
Many of these groups have a heavy presence on the Internet, and you can easily read lengthy posts about jihad and martyrdom and what awaits in Paradise.
This shows the power of an idea, Jason.
It is not a case of marginalization as we usually understand it.

Now, in the Palestinian camps, there is obviously marginalization of a more recognizable type ... the poverty, the lack of control over their personal and collective lives, the constant sense of humiliation.
I don't doubt you're right that the heavy pressures they're under would make the decision to become a shahid more attractive.
But an idea has taken hold that makes the usual rational reasons for not killing yourself and others inapplicable ... the idea that murder is a way station to Paradise.
And that has an appeal to some young Muslims, 'marginalized' and 'unmarginalized' alike.

The population needs to be desperate enough already for them to adopt this virgins-in-heaven thing. There needs to be the right soil for the seed to take root. I think you've put the cart before the horse.

By no means have all of those who adopt the 'virgins-in-heaven thing' been marginalized, at least in any ordinary sense.
That's what studies have shown.
You make sense ... perfect sense ... but investigation has shown very many exceptions.
You must have read this many times.

The martyr ideal is a product of marginalization and the martyrs will only disappear when Palestinians feel there is hope for themselves and their children. The only way to do that is to give them true power over themselves. Right now the Palestinians are no better than helots.

If they attain statehood of a real sort, I am sure there will be great improvement.
But there will still be those, even in a prosperous Palestine, that see Israel as a foreign pustule that must be rooted out from the heart of the Muslim world.
This is a fixed, coagulated idea that has something to do with poverty, something to do with political disenfranchisement ... but I believe less to do with either, at this point, than you seem to believe.
 
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tripod

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All I know is that this thread is gettin' to be pretty epic, attracting some real intellectual heavyweights discussing some serious shit. :hail:
 
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I don't think that's the case Rubi.

The reason that the 9/11 hijackers and many other suicide terrorists come from middle class backgrounds is that they have no future. They're among the few who have been educated, traveled, and truly see the place of Muslims in the world and how the world powers are using various Arab countries and populations to further their own goals. These young men, occasionally women, have an education and no where to go. They can't get jobs in their countries because there aren't jobs to be had. They know that things aren't getting better and won't until policies change. The saddest part is that these few relatively well educated people have seen just how dire the situation is and believe the only way to solve it is to blow themselves to pieces rather than work to better the situation via peaceful means. This isn't terribly surprising since Hamas and the other paramilitary groups are led and manned by thugs who don't trust intellectuals who they see as threats to their power. These people are marginalized by any definition of the word despite the fact they should be economic and community leaders in any other stable society.

My statement was based on the idea that broadly middle class populations don't resort to violence.

Radicalism takes hold when centerist policies fail to resolve outstanding issues. We see this time and again in cultures where Maslow's hierachy isn't satisfied. The doctrine of jihad has been around since Muhamned himself went about lopping the heads off people who refused to convert yet the vast majority of Muslims don't subscribe to it because their needs are satisfied to at least some degree. They're all very aware that the Caliphate of the ummah is a long lost dream yet they go about their daily lives anyway. The reason is because while they may feel Islam is somewhat marginalized, they themselves are not.

Peoples who turn to radicalism feel pushed to the brink and frankly, people are universally pretty good at figuring out what a real brink is. Cultures that engage in and glorify suicide and terrorism really are marginalized, really are failing, really are unable to change their fate. If they have no temporal power they instead seek spiritual power where they can invent reasons to justify whatever it is they feel they need to do to regain temporal power.

This is why it is essential that outside support of Hamas and other militant groups be cut-off, Palestine be established as a state, aid be given to establish basic government services, incentives provided to incubate a viable economy, infrastructure be built, and Israel reined in.

The problem is that any attempt to do this will be met with vehement opposition by Israel which would prefer to keep the Palestinians under heel. They do not want an equal or even sovereign Palestine. They do not want pesky things like treaties and borders to keep them from rolling into Palestine whenever they please. Their policy is that so long as Palestinians are weak, Israel is safe even if there is a perpetual de facto state of war. Some of this is clearly ideological. God gave Israel to the Jews and so they have the only legitimate claim to the land. If the Palestinians believe God supports their suicide missions, it is only practical to note that the Israelis are just as adamant that God approves of their actions as well. Someone more practically, the strategic situation of a free Palestine is a real threat to Israel. Their fear is that larger military forces could move into Palestine and attack Israel from Gaza and the West Bank. Were that to happen, the country could be cut in half easily and fatally. I don't think any military strategist can look at the wasp waist of Israel and not be uneasy about its potential danger.

The Palestinians did get the raw end of the whole deal in this despite the fact they worked arm in arm with the Israelis, committing terrorist acts resulting in death, to get the British out. That fact is not lost on the Palestinians one iota and it should be well remembered by the world that both factions lived in relative harmony for centuries. It was not until the west determined that one group would be favored over the other that all this began. We have a moral imperative to rectify a situation we ourselves as westerners, have created. I know that doesn't mean much in foreign policy circles but the fact is that the progression of technology and economies of scale will mean that one day Hamas will be able to inflict very serious casualties upon Israel with relatively little effort. It is unwise for Israel not to address this situation and realize that it will have to take risks to help the Palestinians grow to not want to destroy Israel.
 

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jason_els makes some very sensible points about the Northern Ireland issue (though I prefer to think of Paisley junior as Paisley's son, and Paisley snr has just retired from some of his roles aged 82, not gone to meet his maker). Among jason_els's points is the idea that neither the UK nor Ireland truly want Northern Ireland. Broadly this has to be correct. Northern Ireland represents a bad press around the world for the UK, and in the recent past has been very expensive in terms of security and redevelopment. Ireland is a prosperous state at peace with itself, and really doesn't want to have to sort out Northern Ireland's problems. Many in England, Wales and Scotland would say that we are stuck with Northern Ireland and don't want it. Most in Ireland just want a happy and prosperous Ireland, which is what they have got without Northern Ireland.

There are parallels with Gaza and the West Bank. There would be some geographical sense in the two territories being part of Egypt and Jordan respectively. I take on board that there are differences between Palestinian, Egyptian and Jordanian Arabs, but there is also a common linguistic, cultural, religious and colonial heritage. I take on board that Palestinians might not want this. But I think the interesting point is that it doesn't even seem to be an option to be considered. Presumably Egypt and Jordan respectively don't want the problems that they would be responsible for. Is it the case that Gaza and the West Bank have to make a go of Palestine because they are not welcome as part of Israel, Egypt or Jordan?
 
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Drifterwood

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Israel can not win this war, as Big Dave points out, unless of course they achieve what Hitler was not able to and some of you are innanely calling for. Will Schindler's list become Cohen's list for Palestinian survivors? The US has more probability in imperial occupancy of Afghanistan. And please, what my Grand Parent's generation did in Europe is a cornerstone of my liberal humanitiarianism. But that's the bitch about humanitarianism, it doesn't care who or what you are.

Personally, I don't trust the timing of the whole operation. Why wait till now to swat the fly that is pestering you?

However, what this ultimately shows me is that Israel is no nearer an acceptance of a political solution than they were sixty years ago. Given that conclusion, the future looks pretty bleak.

Good luck Barack, as if you needed this.
 

mitchymo

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Israel can not win this war, as Big Dave points out, unless of course they achieve what Hitler was not able to and some of you are innanely calling for. Will Schindler's list become Cohen's list for Palestinian survivors? The US has more probability in imperial occupancy of Afghanistan. And please, what my Grand Parent's generation did in Europe is a cornerstone of my liberal humanitiarianism. But that's the bitch about humanitarianism, it doesn't care who or what you are.

Personally, I don't trust the timing of the whole operation. Why wait till now to swat the fly that is pestering you?

However, what this ultimately shows me is that Israel is no nearer an acceptance of a political solution than they were sixty years ago. Given that conclusion, the future looks pretty bleak.

Good luck Barack, as if you needed this.

Maybe not the war but they will be victorious in the battle. The war has not begun yet in actuality its just a conflict.

Why will they win the battle?......their primary enemy is Hamas and you only have to listen to the rhetoric coming from senior members like osama hamdan when responding to questions put to him on Hamas's involvement in the peace negotiations to see that they are the spanner in the path to progress.

Q.1 Will you allow a UN force to patrol the borders of Gaza to ensure that arms are not smuggled into the region as this is a requirement of Israel before agreeing to a new ceasefire?

A.1 No, we will not allow foreign troops in the land of palestinians

Q.2 Will you consider the same proposal but with palestinian troops themselves making up the majority of this force?

A.2 No, palestinians will not do the job of Israel to ensure its safety, this is against all our policies (obvious answer here as Israel is their enemy)

Q.3 Do you concur that you are breaking regardless of Israels own illegitamate behaviour all the rules as laid out by the international community in relation to the grounds with which it is acceptable to physically attack another nation?

A.3 Israel is breaking the rules and has said themselves previously that it is Hamas who has done most to honor previous ceasefires (avoids question)

Q.4 Do you think it is wrong that weapons are being smuggled in to Gaza for you to use against Israel who in their defense are attacking you because your using these weapons to attack them?

A.4 If you want to argue about weapons being given to Hamas you should look first to blame America who are giving weapons to Israel

Q.5 Do you think it is fair on the people of Gaza that you as Hamas are not doing everything in your power to come to an agreement on a ceasefire to end their suffering?

A.5 The people of Gaza are united.

Amongst other comments he made were that the international community are doing nothing to help palestine only condemning them and not condemning Israel at all, they are hypocrites.

These questions are just a small selection from an interview on BBC HARDTALK and throughout the interview this senior member of Hamas sat comfortably in Lebanon was evasive and blaming Israel entirely. He made statements that were clearly untrue such as the example i just gave about international condemnation.

A comment towards the end of the interview was that all arab nations supported palestine against the enemy in whatever manner they are able, mark my words (or something to that effect)

In relation to America giving arms to Israel......good....if Israel has no defense then it has no security against those seeking to destroy it. I bet pound to a penny that if Israel was not shadowed by the US and allies that there would probably be more than just Hamas and Hezbollah posing a threat.