The Swiss Minaret Ban

BF2K

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Swiss history is full of religious wars as it was the center of the Catholic/Protestant conflict - they found ways to deal with it to respect each other and avoid the wars that plagued Europe for centuries afterwards - N. Ireland is still under the "rule" of the Protestants in the UK - the line has to be drawn somewhere. And the Balkins have been the dividing line for 2 world wars - It's not about religion, it's about power!!!
 

ryan25yo

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I'm kind of surprised that nobody has posted about this, because it seems to be pretty big news.

"GENEVA — In a vote that displayed a widespread anxiety about Islam and undermined the country’s reputation for religious tolerance, the Swiss on Sunday overwhelmingly imposed a national ban on the construction of minarets, the prayer towers of mosques, in a referendum drawn up by the far right and opposed by the government."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/world/europe/30swiss.html



Switzerland has long been thought of as a bastion of world progressiveness. What do you make of make of this decision?

Any Muslims want to weigh in?
Good for the Swiss! How many churches are there in Saudi Arabia? NONE.
It's about time muslims learn the meaning of "reciprocity"!
 

D_Fiona_Farvel

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Good for the Swiss! How many churches are there in Saudi Arabia? NONE.
It's about time muslims learn the meaning of "reciprocity"!
Saudi Arabia is a nation-state not Islam nor where all Muslims reside.
By percentage, how many of the other Muslim majority nations do not allow other faiths to practice within their country?
 

D_Fiona_Farvel

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and even one of Osama bin Laden's siblings was naturalized Swiss.
So what?

Do you have that in a Constitution?
Good question. :smile:
I am sure the argument, in this case, would be the same tired one rolled out in most discussions about pluralism, which is Switzerland is likely a de facto christian nation.
 

luka82

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All i know about Islam, and somehow I know a lot...
Is that in Iran, for example(" a new world threat"), hundrerds of thousands Christians practice Christianity in peace!
Saudi Arabia is really, a bad, bad example!
 
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superbot

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I think it is a great idea, it should go further though and ban the building of ANY new religious structures.
Here we go again,the non-believers doing their 'holier than thou bit again.' Your arguement is (as usual) absurd and typical of the atheistic delution that the world would be a better place were there no religion blah,blah,blah.Such CRAP....
 

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Good for the Swiss! How many churches are there in Saudi Arabia? NONE.
It's about time muslims learn the meaning of "reciprocity"!

Saudi Arabia (and the Middle East in general) represents a relatively small chunk of global Muslims. Indonesia has the most Muslims of any one region of the world, and the Islam practiced there is quite moderate. Africa also has more Muslims than the Middle East, but there is also an immense Christian presence in Africa. Saudi Arabia is an exception; Wahabi Islam is rather uncommon. However, as in all systems of everything, the extremes tend to be the loudest and most visible. Hence, the relatively small population of Wahabists get the most attention because of how extreme they are, but the more moderate and tolerant sects of Islam go ignored in most media.
 

Zeuhl34

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Here we go again,the non-believers doing their 'holier than thou bit again.' Your arguement is (as usual) absurd and typical of the atheistic delution that the world would be a better place were there no religion blah,blah,blah.Such CRAP....

Because you religious types are obviously so much better at making the world a better place and presenting logical arguments for your beliefs.:rolleyes:
 

luka82

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:bukkake:
Here we go again,the non-believers doing their 'holier than thou bit again.' Your arguement is (as usual) absurd and typical of the atheistic delution that the world would be a better place were there no religion blah,blah,blah.Such CRAP....
But what religion is the "ULTIMATE TRUTH"?
help me, please...
 

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Because you religious types are obviously so much better at making the world a better place and presenting logical arguments for your beliefs.:rolleyes:

Lets stop for a minute here.

Religion is responsible for building the modern society, no one can deny that. Practically all European and US laws originated from the Bible (e.g. do not murder, do not steal), as well as the 7 day week, among other things. In short, society wouldn't be what it is today without religion, and you wouldn't be sitting there right now typing on your computer if it didn't exist!
 

italiancollegeboy

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I agree with a lot of what people have already posted. I am kinda shocked by this decision, since Switzerland and especially Geneva is such an international, progressive, and perhaps neutral or accepting location. I disagree with this decision, I think it obviously stems from feelings (perhaps fear) against Islam which people have been misinformed of from the misleading media news. Since there seems to be a significant amount of outcry against this decision, maybe there will be some reform? Very interesting to hear about this though
 
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superbot

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Because you religious types are obviously so much better at making the world a better place and presenting logical arguments for your beliefs.:rolleyes:
Care to rattle through the obsceneties of the 20 century? Wars,pogroms and genocides etc etc nothing to do with religion I think you'll find.That accounted for the lives of millions upon millions upon millions of people.Enough said.
 

Drifterwood

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Care to rattle through the obsceneties of the 20 century? Wars,pogroms and genocides etc etc nothing to do with religion I think you'll find.That accounted for the lives of millions upon millions upon millions of people.Enough said.

This is a very fair point.

Do you include the genocides perpetrated in the name of manifold destiny?
 

Zeuhl34

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Care to rattle through the obsceneties of the 20 century? Wars,pogroms and genocides etc etc nothing to do with religion I think you'll find.That accounted for the lives of millions upon millions upon millions of people.Enough said.

I thought what I typed would be interpreted as implicitly supporting mitchymo's statement shortly after writing that last comment. I was simply trying to point out the hypocrisy of many religious-types claims of having absolute knowledge and the best path for humanity while simultaneously bashing the non-religious (and those belonging to the "wrong" religions) for making similar claims.

Some "obsceneties" [sic] of the last century or so with at least some basis in religion (since you asked):
Israeli-Palestinian conflict
The Irish/North Irish conflict
The Holocaust
Continued discrimination against gays
Radical Islamic terror attacks
Christian bombings of abortion clinics
Armenian genocide
A number of lesser known conflicts here
 

Zeuhl34

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Lets stop for a minute here.

I wasn't agreeing with mitchymo, and I apologize for not making my sentiment clear; I was disagreeing with superbot's argument about atheism (and non-religion in general). In fact, I rather disagree with mitchymo, as outlawing anything beyond murder, theft, and other major infractions seems pretty stupid to me.

Religion is responsible for building the modern society, no one can deny that. Practically all European and US laws originated from the Bible (e.g. do not murder, do not steal),

Ever notice that laws like that are pretty universal across all societies? I'm pretty sure ideas like that would've developed regardless of religion's influence.

as well as the 7 day week, among other things. In short, society wouldn't be what it is today without religion, and you wouldn't be sitting there right now typing on your computer if it didn't exist!

True, society would not be as it is today, but that's not to say there wouldn't be a society. My main beef with people like superbot is that they view religion as 100% necessary for a society to function, which I do not believe it is. Yes, perhaps it was necessary 3000 years ago to say some omnipotent being told people to not eat stuff that can be bad for you if improperly cooked or stored, but I do not see much purpose to modern dogmatic religion.

I'll still respect people's right to worship (or not) as they wish, and I do acknowledge that religion has shaped every modern culture. However, when someone comes riding in on a religious high horse, railing against supposed non-religious smugness and holier-than-thou-ness, I'll call them on their hypocrisy and point out that religion (particularly in recent history) has done an awful lot of major harm, particularly when compared to what good it has done.
 

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Ever notice that laws like that are pretty universal across all societies? I'm pretty sure ideas like that would've developed regardless of religion's influence.

Wrong. If you look at some very isolated tribes in Africa, South America and Asia which lead very primative lives, many of these laws havn't been established.



True, society would not be as it is today, but that's not to say there wouldn't be a society. My main beef with people like superbot is that they view religion as 100% necessary for a society to function, which I do not believe it is. Yes, perhaps it was necessary 3000 years ago to say some omnipotent being told people to not eat stuff that can be bad for you if improperly cooked or stored, but I do not see much purpose to modern dogmatic religion.

You're getting into very deep water there. I can tell you now that most historians would strongly disagree with you. It is universally accepted that religion has had a massive-and very important-impact on society and we wouldn't be where we are without it.

I'll still respect people's right to worship (or not) as they wish, and I do acknowledge that religion has shaped every modern culture. However, when someone comes riding in on a religious high horse, railing against supposed non-religious smugness and holier-than-thou-ness, I'll call them on their hypocrisy and point out that religion (particularly in recent history) has done an awful lot of major harm, particularly when compared to what good it has done.

Religion, much more often then not, is not the true cause of war. Often it's used as an excuse to cover things up, but scratch beneath the surface and there's a whole host of much stronger reasons as to why that conflict occured. For this reason I get very annoyed when people tell me that religion was the cause of my home country's war, when actually it had nothing to do with religion at all.
 

faceking

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at times that loon Dr Savage is right... borders, language, culture...

I'm kind of surprised that nobody has posted about this, because it seems to be pretty big news.

"GENEVA — In a vote that displayed a widespread anxiety about Islam and undermined the country’s reputation for religious tolerance, the Swiss on Sunday overwhelmingly imposed a national ban on the construction of minarets, the prayer towers of mosques, in a referendum drawn up by the far right and opposed by the government."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/world/europe/30swiss.html



Switzerland has long been thought of as a bastion of world progressiveness. What do you make of make of this decision?

Any Muslims want to weigh in?
 

Zeuhl34

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Wrong. If you look at some very isolated tribes in Africa, South America and Asia which lead very primative lives, many of these laws havn't been established.

There are exceptions and isolates for everything.

You're getting into very deep water there. I can tell you now that most historians would strongly disagree with you. It is universally accepted that religion has had a massive-and very important-impact on society and we wouldn't be where we are without it.
I'll use the same argument here I use when debating about extraterrestrial life: You're thinking awfully narrowly. We may not have an exact facsimile of modern culture and society had religion not ever been, but I firmly feel that there would be some form of society, though likely radically different from when we are used to.

Religion, much more often then not, is not the true cause of war. Often it's used as an excuse to cover things up, but scratch beneath the surface and there's a whole host of much stronger reasons as to why that conflict occured. For this reason I get very annoyed when people tell me that religion was the cause of my home country's war, when actually it had nothing to do with religion at all.
I'm aware of this argument, and I have used it on friends who cited the Inquisition and Crusades (among other things) as their reason for splitting with the Catholic Church. (I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school for a long time, so I'll speak from my experiences.) I've always viewed those as bullshit arguments, as, in order to truly split with a religious organization, one must disagree with its principles and not merely its leadership and past acts.

That being said, though, the fact that religion is so often used as an excuse for varying types aggression is truly saddening. It also exposes some of the inherent problems in allowing large, organized, dogmatic religions gain power of any sort in a society. A country's ruler may just want tighter control over the people, but should he package it as a religious mission, odds are good he'll get plenty of religious nutters to go along with it. If religion were not used as justification for warfare and other forms of aggression, odds are good we'd have fewer people so willingly fighting for unjust causes. The specter of religion and one's supposed eternal soul can really weigh heavily on people's minds when making that kind of decision, and though the root cause of a conflict may not be religious, those actually fighting could potentially make it so.
 

luka82

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Wrong. If you look at some very isolated tribes in Africa, South America and Asia which lead very primative lives, many of these laws havn't been established.
But who says those tribes crave civilisation we live in????
Most of those people seem/ed happy, then civilised people brought them flu, and many more "civilised" goodies!!!
Plus, they have religion, in the eyes of christianity, primitive one, but they have religion.
Plus, I agree that religion has had a great part in creating modern world as we know it, BUT, i think that it brought more misdeed into this world