The truth about Canadian healthcare

[Phil Ayesho]

His response was that if he wanted free healthcare all he had to do was enlist.

Hah!--- apparently he has not read how GW and his cronies have CUT funding to VA hospitals and how they have personally put out the word to deny care as much as is possible.


A white house memo came to light where the administration had INSTRUCTED VA hospitals to NOT diagnose PTSD.

Yeah... our Vets get real good treatment...


And as to our "great Health insurance" Its shit. Even if you can afford it...the insurance companies do everything in their power to drop you if you get any actual disease. You still have to WAIT for approval from your HMO to get care...

Just yesterday there was an article about how more and more health insurers are refusing coverage to perfectly healthy women who have had C sections.
Why? Because if you had ONE C section you will likely need another if you get pregnant again....
They are fucking you because they only want money from folks they are sure WON"T need any care.

I am uninsurable... know why? because my doctor closed his practice and my records were lost.
I am healthy... but no insurer will insure men cause a 50 year old guy should have medical records....


If you believe that medical companies can pull huge profits out of every procedure... AND provide you better care for less money... then you should go back and take remedial math.


The ONLY difference between national health care and what we have now is that EVERYONE will pay health insurance as part of their taxes.

THat means MORE money will be in the system than insurers currently have to work with.

The only OTHER difference, is that insurers will not be able to deny coverage to those who need it most, just so they can pocket all the money they can avoid paying out.

People... the invisible hand of the market does not care about YOU... it will not take care of you... it will take care of those who have the cash to BUY the laws that will make them richer.

At your expense.

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Who the hell in their right mind would choose not to work and not have benefits?!? Which brings us to mental health care in this country being in even worse condition than the standard health care system.

Well, in a previous thread I remember swapping a few words with someone who felt as if he didn't need insurance because it was a scam and he took care of himself. People are so fed up with medical coverage in the US that they'd rather play Russian Roulette with their lives instead of protecting themselves. Rather sad when you think about it.

 

[Gillette]

Taxes are very high in Ontario. We have the Federal Income Tax and the GST, as does Nova Scotia, but we also have an 8% provincial sales tax. We end up paying an extra 14% on almost everything we buy. It's surprising how much of my money goes to the government, with property taxes, parking, licensing, etc.

Ontario also has horribly unfair transfer payments, but again, that's a different thread.

Didn't you love how they magnanimously reduced the GST from 9% to 7%?
"Look at this huge favour we're doing you!"
Umm, it used to be 0%, please kiss our collective asses!

Nova Scotia's PST was 10% prior to the GST's arrival. They combined the two here to a single 15% surcharge. Originally called the Blended Sales Tax (BST) and affectionately dubbed the BullShit Tax it was quickly renamed the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST).

Hey, rec, ask me about vehicle inspections when you want to hear a kvetchfest.

I'm not taking sides. I would simply like to hear from more Canadians.

Read this article written by a journalist from Calgary, Canada.

Canada's Healthcare System is Bad Medicine by Glenn Woiceshyn -- Capitalism Magazine

I love a man who does his research (and has chest hair). Tht article is a good find and on the surface appears to have some damaging criticisms coming from a Canadian writer.

There are two points I'd like to address.

First is bias. From reading the article it's fairly clear to see where he stands on the issue and I guessed his position on the subject as soon as you mentioned Calgary. Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Alberta is what I like to think of as a Republican province. I know we don't have a Republican party in Canada but still. Alberta produces oil which makes them a "have" province, and likes to distinguish itself from the "have nots" such as the Maritimes. Other republican similarities are "traditional family values" and self interest in remaining on top. (Nova Scotia and Newfoundland also have oilfields but have somehow been denied control of those assets. Alberta has control of it's assets. Hmm. Another thread.)

Much of the rhetoric coming out of Alberta follows a "why should we have to carry you?" theme. A survival of the fittest attitude very much present in the article. Read this portion and tell me how much it sounds like a form of eugenics.

For healthcare consumers, the egalitarian message is obvious. Don't bother working hard to achieve success for you will only be condemned as "the haves," taxed of your "excess," prevented from securing better healthcare, and told to go to the back of the line. Don’t bother being responsible regarding your health because it won’t affect what you pay in taxes or what services you get “for free.” Imagine the impact on a hard-working teenager if his parents seized his earnings from a part-time job and distributed it—in the name of equality—among his ambitionless siblings.
As for health-care providers, the egalitarian message is also obvious. Study hard for years; work long and grueling hours; develop life-saving skills, but government will dictate your employer and compensation. The public demands high-quality services regardless of the extent to which your freedom and interests are being sacrificed to the "public good"—to hell with individual rights.
Form this one can extract the egalitarian notion of justice: Punish those who are creative, productive and responsible in order to reward those who (for whatever reason) are not. But if justice is the policy of granting to each person what he or she deserves, then egalitarianism is unjust. The champions of egalitarianism seem oblivious to what makes wealth and medical technology possible. They want us to believe that they can punish and enslave achievers and still have piles of money to seize and distribute—that high-quality services and technological advances are possible in a society where those who are ambitious and productive are sacrificed in the name of helping those who are not.

Little bit chilling, no?

Second, the argument he presents is logically flawed because he's comparing apples to oranges. Egalitarian treatment of patients has no bearing on innovation from competition to develop new treatments.

Innovations in medical technology and phamacology are still and will continue to come from private business. Competition for more effective equipment and drugs will continue unabated because it is the most effective that will be used and the company that developed it to reap the rewards regardless of whether bpayment comes from individual citizens or government (who has deeper pockets).

Competition for more effective procedures, the same. Egalitarian treatment for patients won't change the fact that doctors like to see themselves published (ego? What ego?) or the fact that the doctors who have the best track record of patient treatment will draw additional patients to them for treatment. And doctors are still paid based on the patients they see and the treatments they administer, just perhaps not as richly as those paid on a private basis.

Once more for emphasis. Egalitarian treatment of patients has no bearing on innovation from competition to develop new treatments. It just means that the best treatments available will be available to all who need them rather than just those who can pay out of pocket or those whose HMO hasn't figured out how to deny. Yet.

Yeah, Canada loses a lot of our medical professionals due to the lure of higher income in the states. That does suck. But here's a question both sides of the border should ask themselves.

Where are you provided better healthcare? Where the professionals are willing to work for less money because their focus is on ensuring that each person who comes to them for help gets it or where the professionals are willing to turn you away without treatment because they won't be financially compensated for it?

 

[D_Cyprius Slapwilly]

I'm more interested to hear from Germans. I did a lot of research on universal healthcare in different countries last year, and from what I've read Germany seems to have the most efficient system to me. Canada's doesn't seem awful (still better than ours), but the backlogs for major procedures are a big issue (among other things).

 

[Ethyl]

I'm curious about reproductive health care in Canada. Is birth control covered by the system? I'm amazed insurance companies in the US are so resistant to covering birth control given the costs of prenatal care and childbirth.

 

[D_Cyprius Slapwilly]

I'm amazed insurance companies in the US are so resistant to covering birth control given the costs of prenatal care and childbirth.

I've always been curious about this too. It really doesn't make much sense from a business standpoint.

 

[TheWB]

i moved from canada when i was 12 im 19 now the waiting lines are about the same from my memory the only stuff i ever went in for tho was stitches from palying football n basketball

from what i understand the taxes in the us and canada even out to about the same range. down here u gotta pay for the military in ur taxes and up there ur payin for health care. the canadian military is like five guys with hockey sticks on a speed boat

 

[Gillette]

I'm curious about reproductive health care in Canada. Is birth control covered by the system?

Birth control? No, not by government. The pill is covered by all drug plans, other methods will depend on your plan. Family planning centers sell birth control at a reduced rate and many doctors I've heard of will dispense "samples" for as long as you need them.

I've always been curious about this too. It really doesn't make much sense from a business standpoint.

Of course it does.

I'm amazed insurance companies in the US are so resistant to covering birth control given the costs of prenatal care and childbirth.

Who is that cost to? Don't they charge higher premiums for additional dependants on your plan?

 

[morsecode]

i moved from canada when i was 12 im 19 now the waiting lines are about the same from my memory the only stuff i ever went in for tho was stitches from palying football n basketball

from what i understand the taxes in the us and canada even out to about the same range. down here u gotta pay for the military in ur taxes and up there ur payin for health care. the canadian military is like five guys with hockey sticks on a speed boat

Is amazing to think that the Canadian military machine was one of the best in the world at the turn of the 20th Century (specially the Navy) up to the 50s with the Arrow when Diefenbaker partnered with the US to make the NORAD Agreement pretty much making the Canadian Air Defence subordinate to the US, to being seen as a bunch of guys with hockey sticks on a speed boat. But I guess is a nice trade off.

But if Bobby Clarke was one of those guys the war in Afghanistan would be over, and probably would have slashed Osama on the heel hard enough to slow him down for the easy American picking. Ah, Bobby Clarke you little rat bastard.

 

[Gillette]

from what i understand the taxes in the us and canada even out to about the same range. down here u gotta pay for the military in ur taxes and up there ur payin for health care. the canadian military is like five guys with hockey sticks on a speed boat

Very funny. Military costs also come out of our taxes. Our military personnel recently got a pay hike. Even the grunts earn a civilized wage. We bought helicopters that will stay in the sky and we got a submarine...ok, maybe I shouldn't have gone there.

 

[vince]

I've heard about waiting lists in Canada, but to my knowledge, they are mostly for elective or non-emergency procedures.

[SIZE=-1] When my daughter was born, the bill was- $0

Six years ago I needed emergency surgery to deal with what they thought was a large tumor in my intestinal tract (it turned out to be an abscessed appendix the size of my fist), I went to the emergency room in the afternoon, had the MRI, was admitted in the evening and had the surgery the next morning at 11 o'clock. [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The bill was- $0, [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]including an MRI for which had to wait 3 hours.

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] When my aunt needed hip replacement surgery, she had to wait about a month and the bill was- $0

In BC, in most circumstances, eye glasses and dental are not covered (at least they weren't six years ago).

If you immigrate to Canada, you don't have to wait to become a citizen in recieve healthcare benefits. If you don't have a job, but are not poor, you pay an insurance premium to the provincial system. I varies, but in BC it use to be about $120 for a single person per month. That may have changed now, I don't know.
[/SIZE]

 

[vince]

Is amazing to think that the Canadian military machine was one of the best in the world at the turn of the 20th Century (specially the Navy) up to the 50s with the Arrow when Diefenbaker partnered with the US to make the NORAD Agreement pretty much making the Canadian Air Defence subordinate to the US, to being seen as a bunch of guys with hockey sticks on a speed boat. But I guess is a nice trade off.

But if Bobby Clarke was one of those guys the war in Afghanistan would be over, and probably would have slashed Osama on the heel hard enough to slow him down for the easy American picking. Ah, Bobby Clarke you little rat bastard.

Haha... I was thinking along the same lines... he was a little fucker! Didn't five guys in a speed boat take out a big warship eight years ago?

 

[kalipygian]

I'm curious about reproductive health care in Canada. Is birth control covered by the system? I'm amazed insurance companies in the US are so resistant to covering birth control given the costs of prenatal care and childbirth.

I think the Canadian government system only pays for prescriptions when a person is in a hospital.

 

[Ethyl]

Birth control? No, not by government. The pill is covered by all drug plans, other methods will depend on your plan. Family planning centers sell birth control at a reduced rate and many doctors I've heard of will dispense "samples" for as long as you need them.

No reduced rates for birth control here as far as I know. Most insurance companies push generic birth control pills for obvious reasons. Fifteen years ago, it was cheaper for me to get my pills from Planned Parenthood even though I was fully insured. Planned Parenthood's prices have risen over the years so that may no longer be the case (my area clinic still offers free condoms). Sometimes you can get samples depending on the OB-gyn.

Who is that cost to? Don't they charge higher premiums for additional dependants on your plan?

Sure they do but if you're not in a financial position to start a family and you get pregnant because you don't have access to cheap, reliable birth control then you're often faced with co-payments for office visits and certain procedures. Not every insurance company completely covers hospital stay and post natal care. Three days after the birth of your child, they want you and your new baby to go home.

Here's what I love about my new insurance policy: I pay a reasonable deductible and they pay 100% for all preventative health care measures including pap smears, colorectal cancer screenings, mammograms, cholesterol tests, flu shots, osteoporosis screening, thyroid function, urinalysis, etc. An ounce worth a ton of cure and all that.

 

[morsecode]

Haha... I was thinking along the same lines... he was a little fucker! Didn't five guys in a speed boat take out a big warship eight years ago?

I believe so yes, it was an American one in the coast of Africa, if I remember correctly, but I don't know if those guys sunk it or just drove a big hole in it. In hockey terms Al McInnis would be the right man for that kind of job.

On topic, I emigrated to Canada from Venezuela, and of course the Canadian Health Care System is so much better, waiting lists are made on order of the severity of the illness. You don't have to be a Canadian citizen to have health care, I'm still a Permanent Resident and pay taxes and all, but if anyone is interested you should check the benefits by a provincial basis, as they are all different.

 

[Ethyl]

I think the Canadian government system only pays for prescriptions when a person is in a hospital.

If that's true then the Canadians must be paying quite a bit out-of-pocket for prescriptions in general.

 

[headbang8]

@big bull.

I'm shocked by that article you posted. The says that "egalitarianism" is an "impractical...moral code", one that's "flawed". I think we know where he's coming from!

The failure of Canada's experiment with socialist medicine is readily apparent: long waiting lists and wait times for specialized services, conveyor-belt treatment for routine services, chronic shortages of family doctors and hospital beds, gross inefficiencies, slow innovation, stifling and wasteful bureaucracies, warring “special-interest” groups, and the exodus of good doctors to greener, freer pastures.

Sounds like your average USA HMO to me!

Doctors come to the USA to climb on the gravy train that is the American health system. Like most other economic systems in the USA, it exists to redistribute wealth upward.

Britain's NHS is in crisis for the same reason many other national health care systems behin to crumble. The government tries to weasel out of its responsibilities by part-privatising the system. The notorious NHS Trusts, you may recall, just added a layer of business guys in sharp suits who need to be fed. That just results in more expense, failures in routine administration and less service.

BB, I'm really surprised that you could live in Australia and still be against a national health scheme. Medicare (as it's called in Australia) has plenty of glitches, and the feds in Australia treat the states (who actually deliver health care on the ground) rather badly. But it's a damn sight better than The system in the USA.

 

[Bbucko]

I think the Canadian government system only pays for prescriptions when a person is in a hospital.

I am certain that medications for chronic patients (diabetes, etc) are covered, as would pain medications and antiretrovirals.

 

[morsecode]

Out of curiosity, How's the Health Care System in Germany, headbang8?

 

[headbang8]

Oh, and the second article has a link. The British government determined that 62% of all trusts had a "fair" to "weak" use of resources in FY 2006-7. For an initiative that was introduced to get some private sector efficiencies into the system, this is shocking. Even more so when you consider that in 2005-6, the figure was 84%.