The truth about Canadian healthcare

[faceking]

As the chief justice, Beverley McLachlin, put it, “Access to a waiting list is not access to health care” — and in Canada you wait for everything. North of the 49th parallel, we accept that if you get something mildly semi-serious it drags on while you wait to be seen, wait to be diagnosed, wait to be treated. Meanwhile, you’re working under par, and I doubt any economic impact accrued thereby is factored into those global health-care-as-a-proportion-of-GDP tables. The default mode of any government system is to “control health-care costs” by providing less health care. Once it becomes natural to wait six months for an MRI, it’s not difficult to persuade you that it’s natural to wait ten months, or fifteen. Acceptance of the initial concept of “waiting” is what matters. . .

 

[Gillette]

Last I checked... millions more weren't pouring into Canada.. or any other nation like the US for that matter.

America is still clearly the greatest nation on Earth. Otherwise, nations like Canada would be overwraught with immigration.

I am vehemently thankful for a private healthcare system.

And when precisely was the last time you checked?

I've no difficulty accepting that America has a larger number immigrants than Canada. Look at your advertising.

"Land of opportunity."
"Land of the free, home of the brave."
"We're #1!"
"Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses."
"Live the American Dream!"

Crown Royal is one of the best selling whiskey's in Canada. It's got great advertising and people buy it because they recognise it. It's not the most aromatic. It's not the most flavourful. It's not the smoothest. It's just the best known.

The pity of immigration is that people come to the States based on the "American dream" they were sold only to find with increasing frequency that the fine print reads "we don't want you here".

At any rate this tangent is unrelated to the thread. Keeping on topic, why don't you tell us what it is about the private health care system that you are so vehemently thankful for.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Yes, it makes sense. However, the problem that crops up time and time again are when the HMO denies coverage, then in turn the doctor denies treatment, because your provider doesn't approve this hospital or that drug or manages to label it a preexisting condition.

Well yes but like you said it's all about the individual. I would have to see a detailed plan on federal health before I personally would agree to it. Meaning, what's covered, what isn't when you can be denied etc. I'm not going to blindly say, "woohoo federal health care I'm in".

The crux isn't what you pay. You'll be paying whether through the companies you use now or through taxation to pay for a federal health program. You have paid, you are paying, you will pay. Only the how will change. Please put that issue aside.

Well it's hard to put it aside. That's the crux of the entire issue regarding Fed Ins. What is the tax hike going to be, what's the percentage based on income levels, how much more/less long term when you add up co-pays, prescriptions etc. It has everything to do with what you're paying.

Where is the money going to come from? The average health care costs about 13 grand a year I believe for a family plan, which your employer pays. Now you pay a % of that, ranges from company to company. If the average person gets taxed at a rate that it's until like April/May before they can start keeping their income as it is, where is the rest of that money coming from?

By having a federal or state run health care system every US citizen will receive the treatment they need at any hospital by any doctor regardless of whether or not the condition is preexisting.

That's a large assumption. As I stated, I would need to see the plan to get pushed through before I agreed with that. I would be shocked if some of the same contingencies that HMO use to get out of things are not also put into place.

For those who feel that the system as is is fine. For those who feel that "working harder" to afford a better HMO is the answer. For anyone who could watch some-one's child suffer from inadequate health care and think "not my problem".

That's why I said if should be an "option" if you need it for whatever reason it should be available to you. I just have less faith in government bureaucracy than I do the private sector. Then again I'm also a person that would rather invest his own social security dollars on my own than let the government hold it.

It's time to stop calling America "the beautiful", because that's about the ugliest attitude there is.

Dunno, somethings are messed up but I've been around and there still isn't a place I would rather be.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

The pity of immigration is that people come to the States based on the "American dream" they were sold only to find with increasing frequency that the fine print reads "we don't want you here".

As a whole I don't agree with this and is a little bit of a misleading statement. I also have an issue with people saying "it's funny how people complain about immigrants but almost none of us are from here."

The problem I have with immigration is the illegal ones. More than happy to welcome people in with open arms that go through the proper steps, being documented etc. I don't think that's a lot to ask.

 

[Gillette]

As the chief justice, Beverley McLachlin,

Of Alberta.

Very easy for Canadian myopia to miss the "when" they will receive it, and under whose discretion.

Much less how much it will cost those who don't need the basic needs. A la, the top 20% pulling the weight of the bottom 80%.

I'll bet that felt like a powerful statement when you typed it. Pity it doesn't make any sense.
Does basic need no linger mean what it's supposed to? Food, water, shelter. The top 20% don't need these? Cool.

Under the doctor's discretion. The government's only role is to pay the health care practitioners for services rendered to the patient. When. When you need it. And by need I mean need not want. This is the ugliness. The amount of money you are able to throw around does not make your life more important than some one elses. Your tennis elbow does not supercede the breathing difficulties of another man because your bank account has more zeroes.

 

[Qua]

The movie "Sicko" is very accurate.

No Michael Moore movie is very accurate. That's all I have to say on the subject, as I don't really know enough about the healthcare systems to comment.

 

[vince]

As the chief justice, Beverley McLachlin, put it, “Access to a waiting list is not access to health care” — and in Canada you wait for everything. North of the 49th parallel, we accept that if you get something mildly semi-serious it drags on while you wait to be seen, wait to be diagnosed, wait to be treated. Meanwhile, you’re working under par, and I doubt any economic impact accrued thereby is factored into those global health-care-as-a-proportion-of-GDP tables. The default mode of any government system is to “control health-care costs” by providing less health care. Once it becomes natural to wait six months for an MRI, it’s not difficult to persuade you that it’s natural to wait ten months, or fifteen. Acceptance of the initial concept of “waiting” is what matters. . .

For your information, I needed an MRI and waited about one hour for it at Lions Gate Hospital in North Vancouver. The next morning I had surgery. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Open up to some other possibilities and have a balanced view. No system is perfect or will perfectly meet the needs of all people all the the time. The status quo in American health care is not working, hasn't for some time and is it in need of some serious overhaul in terms of how it's paid for.

The administrative costs of health care in the US far outstrip those in Canada. Our socialised system is two times more efficient than the private insurance system in the US in dealing with admin costs. Overhead in the US Medicare system was 3.6% versus 11.7% for private insurers.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]U.S. Health Care Paperwork Cost Far More Thank in Canada
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]New England Journal of Medicine Study Shows U.S. Health Care Paperwork Cost $294.3 Billion in 1999
Far More Than in Canada[/FONT]

​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BOSTON-August 20, 2003-A Special Article published in tomorrow's New England Journal of Medicine finds that health care bureaucracy cost Americans $294.3 billion in 1999. The $1,059 per capita spent on health care administration was more than three times the $307 per capita in paperwork costs under Canada's national health insurance system. Cutting U.S. health bureaucracy costs to the Canadian level would have saved $209 billion in 1999.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The study was carried out by researchers at Harvard Medical School and the Canadian Institute for Health Information, Canada's quasi-official health statistics agency. The authors analyzed the administrative costs of health insurers, employers' health benefit programs, hospitals, nursing homes, home care agencies, physicians and other practitioners in the U.S. and Canada. They used data from regulatory agencies and surveys of doctors, and analyzed Census data and detailed cost reports filed by tens of thousands of health institutions in both nations.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The authors found that bureaucracy accounted for at least 31% of total U.S. health spending in 1999 vs. 16.7% in Canada. They also found that administration has grown far faster in the U.S. than in Canada. Between 1969 and 1999, administrative and clerical personnel in the U.S. grew from 18.2% to 27.3% of the health work force. In contrast, the administrative/clerical share of Canada's health labor force rose modestly, from 16.0% in 1971 to 19.1% in 1996. These labor force figures exclude the 1.65 million employees at U.S. insurance companies and agencies, as well as the small number of private insurance employees in Canada.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Overhead in Canada's provincial insurance plans, which provide most coverage, averaged 1.3% vs. 11.7% for private insurers in the U.S. and 3.6% for U.S. Medicare. Bureaucratic costs were also far higher for U.S. doctors and hospitals than for their Canadian counterparts.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] This study was conducted with grant support from The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. The Foundation does not endorse the analyses or findings of this report or those of any other independent research projects for which it provides financial support.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Drs. Stefffie Woolhandler and David Himmelstein, Harvard authors of the study, are both Associate Professors of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and co-founders of Physicians for a National Health Program, a 10,000 member organization that advocates for Canadian-style national health insurance in the United States.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.hms.harvard.edu/news/releases/0820woolhimmel.html
[/FONT]

 

[B_sugarandspice]

Yes, it makes sense. However, the problem that crops up time and time again are when the HMO denies coverage, then in turn the doctor denies treatment, because your provider doesn't approve this hospital or that drug or manages to label it a preexisting condition.

The crux isn't what you pay. You'll be paying whether through the companies you use now or through taxation to pay for a federal health program. You have paid, you are paying, you will pay. Only the how will change. Please put that issue aside.

By having a federal or state run health care system every US citizen will receive the treatment they need at any hospital by any doctor regardless of whether or not the condition is preexisting.

The article by the Albertan author is full of logical holes but he does capture the crux of the issue with this portion.


Egalitarianism for health care vs self interest. Call that self-interest or egoism rational if you wish but it's still self-interest.

For those who feel that the system as is is fine. For those who feel that "working harder" to afford a better HMO is the answer. For anyone who could watch some-one's child suffer from inadequate health care and think "not my problem".

It's time to stop calling America "the beautiful", because that's about the ugliest attitude there is.

This is so true.
I have always felt this way.
I am not even looking for free healthcare just better or adequate care.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

This thought just popped into my head. And no I didn't think it through before I decided to post.

How much of a difference between the US and Canada do you think the citizens will alter the overall cost of Federal Health Care?

Here is my meaning, we as a nation are, well, fat. Obesity and things such as diabetes run rampant through our adults and now our kids. Everyone is talking about how efficent the system in Canada is and the lower cost % wise etc. But you have to take into account the very big factor that the various health problems in this country is an issue.

If someone is disabled, really sick and cannot work, maintain health care on their own etc. I am more than happy to have my taxes go to those people in need. I'm not a philanthropist by any stretch of the imagination, but I do donate what I can when I can, even if it's just time.

However with that said. I have a very large problem for paying for someone that is taking 5 different meds a month only because he or she cannot stop shoving Whoppers in their face and washing it down with a 2 liter of Coke. Nevermind even suggesting a treadmill once in a while .

We have people that take advantage of the system as it is and people want to add to that? Again, I want every single man, women and child to be able to have help and insurance when they need it. But I wince at the thought of paying for someone that refuses to take care of themselves.

Here is a little anecdote for you. Granted I am assuming that certain procedures will still have to be covered on your own etc. But this is how shitty some of our programs are now.

I have a friend of mine, she has a sister that's obese. I'm not talking can't fit into the same clothes before she had kids either. I'm talking 280 pounds and eats brownies for breakfast with 2 egg Mcmuffins all packed on a 5'4'' frame Obese. She is also on welfare because she doesn't want to work. Now she's finally upset about her wait, and get this, she's going to have her stomach stapled to lose the wait AND tax dollars are going to pay for the whole thing.

To get this done she had to show she could lose some weight on her own before they gave the ok. She lost like 30 pounds on her own, so we are not talking about someone with a health condition here. She just won't stop eating, so now we get to pay for this. The government is paying for this, this multi-thousand dollar procedure, we are paying for it just because she eats fast food 3 times a day.

Is this going to be the norm, of course not. However there are enough people here in the States that do milk the system for all it's worth. For a lot of people this is one of big issues with having a national health care system. How many more people are going to be added to the already crowded tit that is the American welfare program?:boobies2:

Now I beg people to read my whole post and understand that I am not saying this is what's going to happen across the board. I really believe we need health care for everyone, a lot of people could would benefit from it. Nor do I think everyone on welfare or assistance is milking the system. I want the people that struggle, single moms/dads, disabled, elderly, too sick to work, low income, whomever to get the help they need period. There is just a percentage of people I don't want to pay for and there needs to be a way to address this.

 

[Principessa]

The truth about American healthcare: 45 million uninsured. Is anything else relevant?

QFT!

Nope, nothing else matters.
For this to occur in an allegedly civilized nation is a travesty.

 

[erratic]

"Canadian myopia"?
Waiting six months for an MRI?
Someone's either working for an HMO or is talking out his ass.

 

[223790]

Last I checked... millions more weren't pouring into Canada.. or any other nation like the US for that matter.

America is still clearly the greatest nation on Earth. Otherwise, nations like Canada would be overwraught with immigration.

I am vehemently thankful for a private healthcare system.

You're completely wrong on this point. I have worked with immigrants in Canada for the last decade. Canada accepts close to 300,000 immigrants (and refugees) per year and there is a waiting list of over 900,000 that want to immigrate to Canada. Every year the line gets longer. Canada being an officially multi-cultural country with a strong economy, good government, little violence (due to strong gun control laws) and socialized health care attracts many immigrants every year.

On your second point, you must have amazing health insurance to feel so strongly about private health care. I hope they feel as strongly towards you when you need them and don't try to get out of paying your medical bills by labelling your condition as "pre-existing" or the treatment you need to save your life as "experimental". Otherwise, I hope you're not too attached to your house, assets and life savings because they will be gone in an instant.

 

[headbang8]

Many Americans look at healthcare in other countries around the world, and cannot believe it. Literally, cannot believe it. For so long, getting healthcare has been such a struggle for so many Americans, they find it hard to grasp that it's so easy elsewhere to be looked after when you're sick. There MUST be a catch. It can't be that simple.

Well, frankly, it's never simple to find a fair way to distribute scarce, expensive resources that figure in matters of life and death. But universal, central health insurance helps make it simpler not just for the sick, but for those who care for them. And it costs EVERYBODY less.

Many Americans resist allowing the government to fix the problem. Given the current government in the USA, I can't blame them. That's another issue. Healthcare is an infrastructure cost that raises the general standard of living in a community--the kind of thing that governments are for. A more urgent task for Americans is to fix democracy, not healthcare, and make broad changes that don't allow government to be manipulated, whittled down, and corrrupted--made alternately impotent or used for bad purposes.

Fixing US healthcare is urgent. Fixing US democracy moreso.

 

[mickswim]

the truth - they thicker up north ...

 

[mickswim]

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[mickswim]

divorced - widfowed - i like cars ...

 

[mickswim]

only 8 uncut

 

[mickswim]

Join Date: Aug 2007
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the truth - they thicker up north ...

 

[ital8]

I really hope our country can fix our health-care crises. I don't think anyone deserves to either lose their house or be in endless debt because they cannot afford their health-care bill. It's scary because people who have a full-time job are always in jeopardy of losing it, especially in this tumultuous economy and lose their benefits along with it. It should not be like this. Hopefully, our next administration will have the balls to fix it.

 

[2322]

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the truth - they thicker up north ...

only 8 uncut

divorced - widfowed - i like cars ...

the truth - they thicker up north ...

NEW

New to LPSG and I have to say it turns me on. Married uncut guy who would like to meet other str8/bi guys for safe exploring. Would like to hold another cock in my hand - the bigger the hotter. Uncut is always a plus since I have never seen another uncut cock up close.

i'm not i lied way back to icuii

:trink26: