the truth

Phil Ayesho

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Sorry
this is nothing but desperate and vanity driven attempts to make Africa and Africans more important than they were. Its a political argument, not a scientific one.

You can correctly say that ALL human cultures are descendants from African ancestry... all human beings decedents of African forebears...

But most of the cited "connections" are, in fact, spurious.

Rome had existed for 300 years prior to its seizure of Egyptian wheat production. Prior to that time, it had simply bought the wheat.
Egypt, when Rome came knocking, had been ruled and dominated by GREEK culture for hundreds of years. IT was Greek culture that opened Egyptian production to the rest of the world.
And Egypt spent so much of its history under the rule of non-african invaders as to make any claims to "african" influence highly debatable.

The idea of African empires lasting longer than others is also a falsified claim based upon a re-definition of the concept.

Yes, certain ethnic african tribes have had continuous existence for thousands of years.... but only if you consider them linguistically.
That is, there are no African Tribes that can show a recorded history even remotely as long as, say, China.
And to consider modern day Egypt as the same "empire" as ancient Egypt is simply a geographical, rather than dynastic argument.

There have been people living on the Po river for 60,000 years.... that doesn't make them Italians.


African culture and african people have certainly had their share of influence on the rest of the world...
But no more than any other group of people.


This kind of book is pandering to feelings of racial inadequacy or racial superiority... its a "feel good" paean to bolster black ego that distorts and re-defines history to falsify a greater "black" contribution than real historical scholarship supports.

It is racist in its specific intent.
 
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Phil Ayesho

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PS--- I should additionally point out that REAL historians do not consider NORTH african civilizations to be , specifically, African in origin.

THey separate social development and influence along more sensible geographic lines than continental contiguousness.

For Example... ALL of the empires that grew up in the land area around the Mediterranean are related. Because the Mediterranean was a more facile connection than any overland routes... the Egyptians did not exist independently of the Phoenicians, The Minoans, the Greeks, The Perisans, The Hittites, or any other Mediterranean seafaring culture.

The Sahara fully separated these Mediterranean cultures from the sub saharan Tuareg and other great African empires....

Real historical scholarship looks at cultural developments thru actual spheres of influence... largely dictated by access to trade and to war.

The Continental connection is meaningless.
 
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D_Gunther Snotpole

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I would doubt it.
Why should we assume that the first monotheist would be known to history?

His General/Brother Tutmoses fled towards Israel after his death/overthrow. Of course - it wasn't called Israel then.

Are you trying to connect him with Moses? Because that's a wild guess.
The Wikipedia article even says that brother Thutmose died before Akhenaten ascended the throne. ("Akhenaten was not originally designated as the successor to the throne until the untimely death of his older brother, Thutmose.")
And the Wiki article on Thutmose mentions this: "The Moses' name is possibly a common element of Egyptian names (e.g. Thut-MOSE, "Son of Thoth," Ra-MOSE, "Son of Ra")."
 

mrpond

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history belongs to those who have the biggest stick in thier hand.....it is now slipping away from europe and usa to the far east... in a hundread years time it may slip into an african hand or into a south american hand
 

Drifterwood

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I am suggesting Rubi, that monotheism came from Egypt, that it was brought eventually to Judaism by a direct link through the name Moses who may have been connected with Atenism at a high level. As the article says there are many Moses, the one who died and ones who lived. There is no doubt that the Atenists had to flee - every record of their existence was expunged by the old guard once they regained control.

Phil. The North Coast of Africa is and always was part of the Mediterranean World, it's influence is no less than any other and in many ways more. Egypt is both part of Africa, the Mediterranean World and the gateway between Africa Asia and Europe. I am not disagreeing with you that this book may be somewhat pandering, but don't underestimate all the influence or the fact that geopolitically things weren't always the same.
 

dreamer20

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Egypt, when Rome came knocking, had been ruled and dominated by GREEK culture for hundreds of years. IT was Greek culture that opened Egyptian production to the rest of the world...

Greek culture did not supplant native Egyptian culture, as the Ptolemies supported time-honored traditions in an effort to secure the loyalty of the populace. In fact Greek and Hebrew cultures were formed from Ancient Egypt's civilization which existed 2,000 years before these later peoples. Both the ancient Greeks and Romans worshiped Egyptian deities.


Ancient Egypt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

mista geechee

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Sorry
this is nothing but desperate and vanity driven attempts to make Africa and Africans more important than they were. Its a political argument, not a scientific one.

You can correctly say that ALL human cultures are descendants from African ancestry... all human beings decedents of African forebears...

But most of the cited "connections" are, in fact, spurious.

Rome had existed for 300 years prior to its seizure of Egyptian wheat production. Prior to that time, it had simply bought the wheat.
Egypt, when Rome came knocking, had been ruled and dominated by GREEK culture for hundreds of years. IT was Greek culture that opened Egyptian production to the rest of the world.
And Egypt spent so much of its history under the rule of non-african invaders as to make any claims to "african" influence highly debatable.

The idea of African empires lasting longer than others is also a falsified claim based upon a re-definition of the concept.

Yes, certain ethnic african tribes have had continuous existence for thousands of years.... but only if you consider them linguistically.
That is, there are no African Tribes that can show a recorded history even remotely as long as, say, China.
And to consider modern day Egypt as the same "empire" as ancient Egypt is simply a geographical, rather than dynastic argument.

There have been people living on the Po river for 60,000 years.... that doesn't make them Italians.


African culture and african people have certainly had their share of influence on the rest of the world...
But no more than any other group of people.


This kind of book is pandering to feelings of racial inadequacy or racial superiority... its a "feel good" paean to bolster black ego that distorts and re-defines history to falsify a greater "black" contribution than real historical scholarship supports.

It is racist in its specific intent.

so im racist now? haha wow. cynics never fail to let you know they are present.

how " REAL " can a historian be if they dont consider north africa a part of africa. same continent as far as i knew. so phil, please inform me on you " REAL " historians.
 

Elmer Gantry

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There are certainly a lot of parallels with earlier religions to show that Christianity and Judaism are an amalgam. It's only the "true believers" that refute that these days. However, I don't think its' entirely true to attribute this as an African thing as the influences come from as far away as Persia to Spain and span 50,000 years of history prior to the time of Christ. Once upon a time, bad things would have happened to me for thinking that, let alone writing it for all the world to see.

Much of the African monarchs during the time of the Roman Republic weren't conquered as the Romans were more interested in trading with others than conquering them at the time. It wasn't until just before the time of Julis Augustus Caesar that they started to really expand the empire. Up until this time, the Senate were still debating about whether it was right or prudent to have so much land in the empire they already had.

Yes, he with the biggest stick writes history. I wonder what the 20th/21st century history books will say about us in half a millenia's time?
 
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D_Gunther Snotpole

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I am suggesting Rubi, that monotheism came from Egypt,
...seems to be true ...
that it was brought eventually to Judaism by a direct link through the name Moses who may have been connected with Atenism at a high level.
..."by a direct link through the name Moses..."
Sorry, me no capische.
But Moses himself did certainly come from Egypt; we all know that. But how far does that take you?
As the article says there are many Moses, the one who died and ones who lived. There is no doubt that the Atenists had to flee - every record of their existence was expunged by the old guard once they regained control.
They fled, and the Jews fled, and therefore they are the same peeps?
Could be.
A lot seems to be conjectural. The 'experts' really don't seem in too much agreement.
(I should fer-may la boosh ... coz I just have scattered notions, and I don't have the energy to attempt even a feeble bluff.)
 

Phil Ayesho

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so im racist now? haha wow. cynics never fail to let you know they are present.

Did YOU write the book?
I said the BOOK is racist in its intent. It seeks to "remedy" a potential racial bias in written history by presenting a polemic that is overly exaggerated in the opposite extreme.

how " REAL " can a historian be if they dont consider north africa a part of africa. same continent as far as i knew. so phil, please inform me on you " REAL " historians.

Try and wrap your head around the fact that, if you want to go by "continental" definitions... then Plains Indians are the same as Aztecs.

They are not... Not genetically, not linguistically, not culturally.


In studying history, the people who INTERACT with each other the most have the most cultural exhange. ( and the most genetic exchange)
Subsaharan africa was so geographically remote from northern africa as to have virtually no contact whatsoever except thru the Caravan cultures that acted as insulators.


It was not referred to as the "dark continent" because of the skin color of the people, but because almost no information ever came out of it.
The Romans called it Terra Incognita ... meaning land of which nothing is known.

If information didn't come out of subsaharan africa... then it could not have affected world culture.


Really... get off the racemobile and look at history honestly... It is NOT divided by continent ( which is a purely capricious designation that has no real relation to human migration... but by the geographic features of which continental separations are only a small part.

The Urals, the Hindu Kush, the Alps the Rockies... the Sahara and the Sonora... they form the real boundaries that separated cultures thru history.

And most bodies of water smaller than an ocean actually formed highways facilitating communication, trade, and empire.

Race has almost nothing whatsoever to do with it....
 
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dong20

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Sorry
this is nothing but desperate and vanity driven attempts to make Africa and Africans more important than they were. Its a political argument, not a scientific one.

I'm not sure I'd characterise it as desperate vanity. No more desperate or vain than the frequent desire by other cultures to deny (true or not) what's 'inconvenient', anyway.

You can correctly say that ALL human cultures are descendants from African ancestry... all human beings decedents of African forebears...

According to contemporary theory, pretty much.

...Egypt spent so much of its history under the rule of non-african invaders as to make any claims to "african" influence highly debatable.

That's a highly debatable conclusion as you say, it also depends on how far back one looks and what one wants to find ... There's a tremendous degree of racism in Egyptology. In case you hadn't noticed.

You should perhaps read (the late) Cheikh Anta Diop, James Gilbin, Ibrahim Nasreddin and others.

The idea of African empires lasting longer than others is also a falsified claim based upon a re-definition of the concept.

I agree. For example, one couldn't call Australian Aboriginal culture imperial in nature but it's the oldest continuous culture there is, I believe. I think one needs to toss the buzz words out the window sometimes.

Yes, certain ethnic african tribes have had continuous existence for thousands of years.... but only if you consider them linguistically.

You mean the Bantu language groups? Yes, they've been around a long time, perhaps 5000 years. But I agree it's scant evidence of tribal longevity in any sense we're meaning here.

That is, there are no African Tribes that can show a recorded history even remotely as long as, say, China.

If you mean written history, I'd agree. Traditional yardstick though it is. However the Nsibidi symbolic script, narrow in its use and indigenous to what is now Southern Nigeria dates back perhaps 1000 years and is still in use today. It was used less for the recording of history though, than code for secret societies!

But that would be a rather narrow and convenient requirement - there are other ways to 'record' history. The San (Bushmen) of South Africa date back 20,000 years and left evidence in the form of cave paintings going back 8000 years, perhaps more. That's broadly on a par with Chinese 'history' and they're also still around today, so I think they qualify, just.:smile:

African culture and african people have certainly had their share of influence on the rest of the world...
But no more than any other group of people.

One could argue they had the most influence of all. It depends on how one characterises 'influence' I suppose. In terms of recorded history, say the last 5,000-6,000 years or so I'd broadly agree. Africa has had a tremendous influence on more recent (500 years) though, and mostly for the wrong reasons.

This kind of book is pandering to feelings of racial inadequacy or racial superiority... its a "feel good" paean to bolster black ego that distorts and re-defines history to falsify a greater "black" contribution than real historical scholarship supports.

It is racist in its specific intent.

I'm sure you'll agree modern concepts such as Africa, Europe, China and such like are essentially meaningless in the context of early Human history - or rather its prehistory. In terms of global cultural influence 'Africa' has had it's highs and lows, perhaps more than it's fair share of lows, certainly it's tended to come off the worse in engagements with other more 'civilised' cultures in more recent times, although that's hardly unprecedented.

I tend to view this as an attempt at addressing an undeniable 'popular' ignorance viewed from a contemporary western cultural perspective, and like any such attempt it can't pull it's punches.

Is it simply racist propaganda - no I don't believe so. Does it rather overstate its case, I think that case could be made.
 

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I don't even see the purpose of such a post. Yeah, humans originated in Africa. But we are also descendants of the apes who have inherently light skin. You don't think our skin color was black from the moment we evolved do you? It was light colored and as the need for thick hair on our bodies was reduced those of us that lived in high temperature areas of the earth developed a strong dark pigment to protect our skin from the sun.

Either way, its an incredibly stupid argument. The only reason that racism exists is because people feel the need to focus so much on skin color rather than the fact that we're all equal human beings. Skin color and the origin of it matters not at all....
 

D_Biggo Mortensen

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I don't even see the purpose of such a post. Yeah, humans originated in Africa. But we are also descendants of the apes who have inherently light skin. You don't think our skin color was black from the moment we evolved do you? It was light colored and as the need for thick hair on our bodies was reduced those of us that lived in high temperature areas of the earth developed a strong dark pigment to protect our skin from the sun.

Either way, its an incredibly stupid argument. The only reason that racism exists is because people feel the need to focus so much on skin color rather than the fact that we're all equal human beings. Skin color and the origin of it matters not at all....

I'm sorry but what argumen is stupid? There have been several different arguments throughout the thread and only a select few were out of ignorance. Many of the points brought up were vaild. Surely you cannot mean that this entire thread is pointless. It is certainly a bit biased on both sides but neutrality is overrated anyway :p
 

Drifterwood

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They fled, and the Jews fled, and therefore they are the same peeps?
Could be.
A lot seems to be conjectural. The 'experts' really don't seem in too much agreement.
(I should fer-may la boosh ... coz I just have scattered notions, and I don't have the energy to attempt even a feeble bluff.)

This isn't my area either TBH. But I seem to remember that there is an anomaly between Jewish and Egyptian chronology around this time. There has been some scholarship to explain it. It was a time of monumental sea changes in the Eastern Med because of Santorini blowing up.

The question is whether the people who became known as the Israelites went to Egypt and then returned or whether they were from Egypt originally and fled. I haven't studied it enough to say, though there does seem a desire to play down African connections all round. Circumcision was certainly and originally an Egyptian practice.

Phil - the Western Sahara certainly is a formidale barrier, but the Eastern Sahara less so because of the Nile and the Red Sea. Don't forget the Nubians.