The UK by any other name

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by earllogjam, May 17, 2007.

  1. earllogjam

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    This may be a trite and inconsequential matter but it has always puzzled me why a country can refer to itself with 3 completely different names in the same language.

    Could someone satisfy my curiosity and explain the difference among these three and when and how to properly use them, are they interchangable?

    United Kingdom (UK)
    Great Britain
    England
     
  2. IntoxicatingToxin

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    I wonder if that's how the British feel... as far as "United States" and "America" is concerned.
     
  3. agnslz

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    I believe it goes like this:

    The United Kingdom is the nation.

    Great Britain is the island made up of England, Scotland and Wales.

    England is a country within the United Kingdom.

    I may be wrong, though.
     
  4. Blocko

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    Because, these actually refer to 3 different but overlapping pieces of geography.

    The United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It's a country and sovereign state.

    Great Britain is the largest Island of the British Isles and includes England, Scotland and Wales.

    England is a constituent country of the United Kingdom bordered by Wales and Scotland on the island of Great Britain.
     
  5. Freddie53

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    I'm from America, but I did teach social studies. The official title is or was when I taught school the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. England is a part of Great Britain along with Wales and Scotland. The United Kingdom also has as part of its sovereign territory Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands and several other areas throughout the world

    The Republic of Ireland which is in the southern part of the island is NOT part of the United Kingdom.

    When the colony of Jamestown was founded, Scotland and England were two separate sovereign countries. That changed at the death of Queen Elizabeth the first when the King of Scotland was also in line for the throne of England. The two kingdoms eventually merged but remain two separate regions called countries, but they are not sovereign countries. That is why in history the term England is used for the period of English history up until the time of Queen Elizabeth I death.

    In world language the term United Kingdom replaced the term British Empire during the 1950's as the Commonwealth was created replacing the Empire.
     
  6. Freddie53

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    Now can someone explain to me why it is the Netherlands sometimes and other times it is Holland, but the people are referred to as the Dutch.
     
  7. earllogjam

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    Boy Freddie, what's it like being a walking encyclopedia? Thanks, my curiosity is now over.

     
  8. Blocko

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    Dutch (ethnic group) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But essentially the area has had many different names pre and post the treaty of Westphalia.
     
  9. kalipygian

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    Jamestown was named after James I of England and VI of Scotland. The two kingdoms were in personal union, that is, same king, different governments through the 17th century, after James, King of Scotland and the cousin (once removed) of Elizabeth I, succeeded her in 1603. The term Great Britian gradually and unofficially came into use(Less Britain is the Duchy of Brittany, on the continent).The government of Scotland was in financial difficulties in 1707, and agreed to unite governments, it was from then officially the Kingdom of Great Britain. Brittanium is the ancient name, used by the Romans, of celtic derivation, Prythein is the welsh.
    In 1801, the government of the Kingdom of Ireland, conquered and reconquered by the English over the centuries, was combined, it was from then the United Kingdom of Great Britian. In the 20th century, most of Ireland became a self governing dominion, and gradually fully independant, the northern counties, with a large population of protestants, remains part of the UK.
    The formerly independant Principality of Wales (Cymru in welsh)is is the remnant of the celtic people who formerly also occupied the whole of England, before the Anglo Saxon invasions following the withdrawall of Roman troops. It has been united with the Kingdom of England around 700 years.
    There is also the Island of Man, formerly a Kingdom. There were once many small kingdoms, Kent, Wessex, Wight, Mercia, Deira, Anglia, York, Essex, Lindsey, Hwicce, Magonsaete, etc. were united in the Kingdom of England. Cornwall was not yet a part of the kingdom of England at the time of the norman conquest, it long kept it's own celtic language.
    The Channel Islands, Guernsey, Jersey, Alderney and Sark, are the remnants of the Duchy of Normandy, part of the UK, but not part of England, likewise the island of Lundy.
    Scotland, Wales, and Ireland were once also composed of many small kingdoms(sebregulae). The Orkneys were once part of the kingdom of Norway, and came to Scotland as a dowry.
    The Kings of England held the title Lord of Ireland, (though they usually didn't control more than a part) then from Henry VIII to George VI, King of Ireland.
    The royal lineage can be traced from the Windsors through the Saxe-Coburg and Gothas, the Hanoverians, the Stuarts, the Tudors, the Plantagenets, the Normans, Danes, and Anglo Saxons, the kings of Wessex, to the 6th Saxon invaders, Hengist and Horsa, to the god Odin.
    Under king Canute, the kingdoms of England, Norway, and Denmark were united. Under the Normans and Plantagenets, the Duchies of Normandy and Aquitaine, and the Counties of Anjou, Gascony, and Poitiou were united with the kingdom of England. The plantagenets (and to George III) claimed to be kings of France, and were on occasions recognised. Queen Mary I's husband Phillip Habsburg had the title King Consort of England, and was also King of Castile, Leon, Aaragon and Navarre(and later Portugal) and Duke of Burgundy, Brabant, Luxemburg etc. The Hanoverians were also Electors of Hanover in the Holy Roman Empire.

    To me, the term 'the British Isles' refers to all above (including Ireland) except the channel islands, it is a geographic/cultural term, not just a political one. Likewise 'british Literature' includes Irish.
     
  10. kalipygian

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  11. Lordpendragon

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    England is that part of the British Isles under illegal occupation by the Saxons (and Angles amongst other johnny-come-latelies, hence the name).
     
  12. kalipygian

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    Think there is much likelyhood of the Comes Littorum Saxonum expelling them from the Brittanic provinces anytime soon? (That Honorius was such a wus)
     
  13. Lordpendragon

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    We have a cunning plan. :biggrin1:
     
  14. B_big dirigible

    B_big dirigible New Member

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    I think Hengist and Horsa were the same guy, described in slightly different legends and conflated in a compilation by Bede or some such fellow who fell a bit short of modern standards of historiography. Seriously, who's going to give two sons the same name? Both mean "horse". The only sources for the period are Bede's Ecclesiastical History and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which isn't much.

    And I've never been able to identify a Teutonic tribe called "Angles". I suspect Anglo-Saxons just mean the Saxons in England, as opposed to the stay-at-homes back on the continent. The 5th century invasions were of Saxons, Jutes (from Jutland, ~ Denmark), and probably some Frisians.

    As for England, it's been going to hell since Harold Godwinson died. Phooey.
     
  15. Lordpendragon

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  16. Mr. Snakey

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    Do we have too much time on our hands? Tired of watching paint dry and waiting for Oprah to cry? LOL:tongue: :wink:
     
  17. dong20

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    Quite possibly, along the lines of Romulus and Remus you mean as mythical cultural icons? I don't think that's the case and I'm convinced there is some reality behind it. With Hengist being just a nickname I suspect that Bede's interperation was as you say.

    To give Bede credit I wonder (without the evidence of modern archeological technology) how accurate would a modern account of say Elizabethen England be if it were written today based largely on heresay and supposition.

    A Hengist is referred to in (among other documents) Beowulf, so it must be true.:tongue:

    They're still there, in what's now a part of Germany (since 1885 - formely Danish). Also it's a breed of pig, though I'm not sure if that's relevant.

    Don't forget; Gibraltar (disputed), the British Indian Ocean Territiory (also disputed and leased to the US) and the Antarctic Territory (also disputed) and the Falklands/Sandwich and South Georgia islands (seriously disputed). There are other small islands; St Helena, TDC etc I can't recall their exact status as dependencies/part of UK or if the BOTC act of 2002 applies to them?

    Don't let ManlyBannisters hear you say that!:tongue:
     
  18. Theunbroken

    Theunbroken New Member

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    United kingdom - all the islands that are around the main isle (including ireland)

    Great britain - England, scotland, wales

    England - the southern country of the brittish isle (also known as great britain)

    silly thing is but im from the uk myself and im even doubting myself.. the whole thing is pretty mad
     
  19. kalipygian

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    Gibar al Tariq is not forgotten, it is a crown colony, not part of the UK or British Isles, an overseas possession, since the war of the Spanish succession.

    The continental Anglia is in Schleswig.
     
  20. Lordpendragon

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    The Republic of Ireland is geographically part of the British Isles. If we understand British in it's Roman context, then my Irish cousins, will have less problem with that than thinking of just the English as British - ironically the English are not British in the truest sense.

    Incidentally - do you know the definition of a Welshman?

    An Irishman that couldn't swim.
     
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