The War in Iraq is Real

[anettenorge]

Dong20, though you and I may disagree on several things within your post, we do agree on others. Lovely post sir- and I read every word, but don't be surprised if it is ignored or chopped up and then you are later charged with having not said anything interesting or profound. In fact most people will go into it immediately trying to decipher if you are in essence 'for the war' or 'against the war' and ignore, the larger picture.

 

[dong20]

Dong20, though you and I may disagree on several things within your post, we do agree on others. Lovely post sir- and I read every word, but don't be surprised if it is ignored or chopped up and then you are later charged with having not said anything interesting or profound. In fact most people will go into it immediately trying to decipher if you are in essence 'for the war' or 'against the war' and ignore, the larger picture.

Agreement is optional for informed understanding, but understanding is mandatory for informed [dis]agreement.

I'm familiar with the salami methodology of citing for effect. It's water of a ducks back, or something.

 

[tripod]

Dong20, though you and I may disagree on several things within your post, we do agree on others. Lovely post sir- and I read every word, but don't be surprised if it is ignored or chopped up and then you are later charged with having not said anything interesting or profound. In fact most people will go into it immediately trying to decipher if you are in essence 'for the war' or 'against the war' and ignore, the larger picture.

They will first have to arm themselves with a dictionary.

Dong20 is probably the smartest person on the entire site... trying to understand him or decipher his reasoning would be akin to most men trying to suck their own penis.

And again, Annette... I am mouthy and didn't mean to imply that you were actually crazy, forgive me for being sophomoric.

 

[dong20]

... trying to understand him or decipher his reasoning would be akin to most men trying to suck their own penis.

Truth be told, I did try that once (I was probably drunk), and while I had a modicum of success it was damned painful.

 

[Flashy]

Flashy, you're right I should refrain from using the word liberal, even though I don't mind Fox news or talk radio being called conservative, because they are.

Liberals are in the majority (majority implies not all of them but most of them ok?) just a few lines away from name calling and personal attacks, it's a gang mentality, safety in numbers, and I strike out on my own and call out their beloved media establishment, I know I asked for it, I know what's coming no matter how reasonable I try to be.

The thought police are out in force on this website.

Anette, I understand your point of view, I am just saying that once certain buzzwords are used (from both sides) the shit starts to fly...for you saying "The Liberal Media" is sort of like when Liberals say "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy". It is just one of those things that will set off the other side.

I agree with many of your points about the media not showing the good things that have been done in Iraq, (and Afghanistan) and that is frustrating to me since it is not giving a totally accurate picture. As i said, i do not think that is necessarily a product of a "liberal media", but more a product of expedient "drive-by" news (which is pretty shabby IMO).

I am a very liberal person, but i would never vote for a democrat...there are also things that i tend to be more conservative about, i.e. miltary affairs, foreign policy, taxation etc...but I would never vote Republican.

you have legitimate points to make, but obviously, the second liberals and conservatives see each other, especially on a touchy topic like the war in Iraq, they go at each other teeth bared these days. (all are at fault for that, not you)

 

[Flashy]

dong makes far too much sense to be posting here...he should be banned before he gives this site a bad name.

:tongue:

 

[anettenorge]

Ok tripod I feel better about acknowledging you, since conceding that I am sane (gee thanks) despite disagreeing with you. That was a personal attack you let slip, not on the level of commenting on my picture, but you know it was and it only degrades the argument. We're all guilty of it sometimes, but nothing triggers it faster on this site than breaking away from the lefts talking points, believe me I know!

So my point is, you ask, about citing specific examples of blatant pep rally cheering against the president and his administration a media newsroom? Is that a trick question?

anyway... thanks for the engaging conversation people

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

This is coming from a Veteran's point of view. I'm going to bullet items so I don't end up typing 5 pages worth of opinion.

1) I served in a "pure combat unit" and with that said if anyone in my unit was happy to be going to war I wouldn't want to stand next to him in combat. Nobody "likes" war, we signed up to do our jobs.

2) I believe that going to war with Iraq was the right thing to do. Please read my entire explanation before hitting the reply button. :wink:

3) We should have finished/buttoned up Afghanistan first, our resources regarding personnel are stretched too thin.

4) The War would have been more excepted if Bush came out and said why we are actually going in. I'll list my reasons or what I believe next....

5) First it is about oil, yes people will make money off of it, but it was also to keep it and/or the money from it out of the wrong hands (terrorists).

6) Look at a map of the Middle East, we now have a footprint in Iraq and Afghanistan. What/Who is in the middle? This War is also about making and establishing a presence in the theatre. Again refer to my point #3, I think we just moved on Iraq too soon.

7) People are screaming blood for oil etc, have we been hit since 9/11? If you think we have not made a dent on their ability to carry out further operations by hurting them on their own soil you are delusional. Is there still a lot of work to be done, obviously. However, it is the job of the men and women that serve to protect the people that live in the homeland. And I would say so far we've done a good job at that. I am also not naive and understand that people have and will make money off the war and I know it's not us troops. This is not new to warfare. People made money during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc etc etc. This isn't news at all.

8 Coming from someone that has buried friends, I can still look at this semi-objectively. Yes any life lost is a tragedy, however we as a nation have become spoiled by the "push button" war of Desert Storm. Considering we have occupied a country the size of California the casulity list is not that extensive. 4+ years of WWII we had over 400K casulities. And people also forget that we lost a lot of people during the occupation of Germany post VE day, guerrllia warfare occured there too.

9 This next comment I speak from my experience and also know that I'm not speaking for every single person. The soldier on the ground/sea/air doesn't think about the politics that goes into these conflicts. They do two things, do your best to make sure you and your buddy come home safe, and two, takes pride in knowing you are keeping people at home safe and you are doing some good in the country you are liberating. Yes I look at Iraq as a liberation, as a whole people there are living better lives. You can't expect strip malls and movie theaters built and running in a couple years

10) By no stretch of the imagination do I think the Government has handled this perfectly. I say Government because I've said this before in another thread, Congress voted for the war, it wasn't just a Republican ideal. Democrats also sit on the Intel commitee that we got all those nice pictures of the WMDs that Colin Powell was showing everybody. But what do you think would happen if we didn't push the issue in the Middle East and we were hit here again at home? Granted it's speculation that something would happen, but what if it did? People would be screaming our Government isn't protecting us.

I don't think my opinion counts more than someones that wasn't there, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

 

[Flashy]

This is coming from a Veteran's point of view. I'm going to bullet items so I don't end up typing 5 pages worth of opinion.

1) I served in a "pure combat unit" and with that said if anyone in my unit was happy to be going to war I wouldn't want to stand next to him in combat. Nobody "likes" war, we signed up to do our jobs.

2) I believe that the War in Iraq was the right thing to do. Please read my entire explanation before hitting the reply button. :wink:

3) We should have finished/buttoned up Afghanistan first, our resources regarding personnel are stretched too thin.

4) The War would have been more excepted if Bush came out and said why were actually doing it. I'll list my reasons or what I believe next....

5) First it is about oil, yes people will make money off of it, but it was also to keep it and/or the money from it out of the wrong hands (terrorists).

6) Look at a map of the Middle East, we now have a footprint in Iraq and Afghanistan. What/Who is in the middle? This War is also about making and establishing a presence in the theatre. Again refer to my point #3, I think we just moved on Iraq too soon.

7) People are screaming blood for oil etc, have we been hit since 9/11? If you think we have not made a dent on their ability to carry out further operations by hurting them on their own soil you are delusional. Is there still a lot of work to be done, obviously. However, it is the job of the men and women that serve to protect the people that live in the homeland. And I would say so far we've done a good job at that. I am also not naive and understand that people have and will make money off the war and I know it's not us troops. This is not new to warfare. People made money during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc etc etc. This isn't news at all.

8 Coming from someone that has buried friends, I can still look at this semi-objectively. Yes any life lost is a tragedy, however we as a nation have become spoiled by the "push button" war of Desert Storm. Considering we have occupied a country the size of California the casulity list is not that extensive. 4+ years of WWII we had over 400K casulities. And people also forget that we lost a lot of people during the occupation of Germany post VE day, guerrllia warfare occured there too.

9 This next comment I speak from my experience and also know that I'm not speaking for every single person. The soldier on the ground/sea/air doesn't think about the politics that goes into these conflicts. They do two things, do your best to make sure you and your buddy come home safe, and two, takes pride in knowing you are keeping people at home safe and you are doing some good in the country you are liberating. Yes I look at Iraq as a liberation, as a whole people there are living better lives. You can't expect strip malls and movie theaters built and running in a couple years

10) By no stretch of the imagination do I think the Government has handled this perfectly. I say Government because I've said this before in another thread, Congress voted for the war, it wasn't just a Republican ideal. Democrats also sit on the Intel commitee that we got all those nice pictures of the WMDs that Colin Powell was showing everybody. But what do you think would happen if we didn't push the issue in the Middle East and we were hit here again at home? Granted it's speculation that something would happen, but what if it did? People would be screaming our Government isn't protecting us.

I don't think my opinion counts more than someones that wasn't there, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

Thank you for this brilliant post.

i agree with every bit of it.

Thank you for your service as well. :smile:

 

[hihosilver]

This is coming from a Veteran's point of view. I'm going to bullet items so I don't end up typing 5 pages worth of opinion.

1) I served in a "pure combat unit" and with that said if anyone in my unit was happy to be going to war I wouldn't want to stand next to him in combat. Nobody "likes" war, we signed up to do our jobs.

2) I believe that going to war with Iraq was the right thing to do. Please read my entire explanation before hitting the reply button. :wink:

3) We should have finished/buttoned up Afghanistan first, our resources regarding personnel are stretched too thin.

4) The War would have been more excepted if Bush came out and said why we are actually going in. I'll list my reasons or what I believe next....

5) First it is about oil, yes people will make money off of it, but it was also to keep it and/or the money from it out of the wrong hands (terrorists).

6) Look at a map of the Middle East, we now have a footprint in Iraq and Afghanistan. What/Who is in the middle? This War is also about making and establishing a presence in the theatre. Again refer to my point #3, I think we just moved on Iraq too soon.

7) People are screaming blood for oil etc, have we been hit since 9/11? If you think we have not made a dent on their ability to carry out further operations by hurting them on their own soil you are delusional. Is there still a lot of work to be done, obviously. However, it is the job of the men and women that serve to protect the people that live in the homeland. And I would say so far we've done a good job at that. I am also not naive and understand that people have and will make money off the war and I know it's not us troops. This is not new to warfare. People made money during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc etc etc. This isn't news at all.

8 Coming from someone that has buried friends, I can still look at this semi-objectively. Yes any life lost is a tragedy, however we as a nation have become spoiled by the "push button" war of Desert Storm. Considering we have occupied a country the size of California the casulity list is not that extensive. 4+ years of WWII we had over 400K casulities. And people also forget that we lost a lot of people during the occupation of Germany post VE day, guerrllia warfare occured there too.

9 This next comment I speak from my experience and also know that I'm not speaking for every single person. The soldier on the ground/sea/air doesn't think about the politics that goes into these conflicts. They do two things, do your best to make sure you and your buddy come home safe, and two, takes pride in knowing you are keeping people at home safe and you are doing some good in the country you are liberating. Yes I look at Iraq as a liberation, as a whole people there are living better lives. You can't expect strip malls and movie theaters built and running in a couple years

10) By no stretch of the imagination do I think the Government has handled this perfectly. I say Government because I've said this before in another thread, Congress voted for the war, it wasn't just a Republican ideal. Democrats also sit on the Intel commitee that we got all those nice pictures of the WMDs that Colin Powell was showing everybody. But what do you think would happen if we didn't push the issue in the Middle East and we were hit here again at home? Granted it's speculation that something would happen, but what if it did? People would be screaming our Government isn't protecting us.

I don't think my opinion counts more than someones that wasn't there, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

Well said Sir!

 

[invisibleman]

chocokittie, I was waiting for someone to answer for me or something else adolescent, when you going to call me names?

Flashy, you're right I should refrain from using the word liberal, even though I don't mind Fox news or talk radio being called conservative, because they are.

Liberals are in the majority (majority implies not all of them but most of them ok?) just a few lines away from name calling and personal attacks, it's a gang mentality, safety in numbers, and I strike out on my own and call out their beloved media establishment, I know I asked for it, I know what's coming no matter how reasonable I try to be.

The thought police are out in force on this website.

I wouldn't call you names.

But liberalism may appear in the majority as you say. That doesn't mean that we have power like in the poor rich minority of Conservatives.

Conservatives can throw "liberal" around like it is a bad thing. But liberals are not the source of America's problems. You should REALLY check yourself. Maybe you can listen to Michael Savage and Rush Limbaugh...or Ann Coulter --they can keep sensationalize and painting pictures of people...but that doesn't mean that they are valid sources of fact.

They feed on the public emotions and fear. I think that is the problem. A lot of sensationalized bullshit. Maybe that is the tool of disunification. A bunch of hype, hate and fabrication.

 

[DC_DEEP]

Choco, she is doing precisely what Shelby and Faceking always refer to as "playing the victim"... of course, they only point it out when it's one o' them liberals.

It's an old tactic, and about the only one the "conservatives" know how to use. Challenging that tactic only holds about the interest a 5-year-old has when he pokes a dead squirrel with a stick. He knows he's not going to get a response, but he does it once anyway, just to make sure.

And if anette won't address one specific question of mine, I'll ask anyone else who has pointed out that it's the military's duty to do what they are told. And I will go back to anette's analogy of the fireman.

When a person decides to become a firefighter, yes, he is aware that he may put his own life in danger. Fighting fires is his job. Does that still mean he should hold no animosity toward an arsonist?

I really do not see that as being much different than any servicemember or veteran feeling betrayed when sent to a war in which we have no business, commenced on false pretenses, and artificially extended to maximize profit.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Thank you for this brilliant post.

i agree with every bit of it.

Thank you for your service as well. :smile:

No thanks needed, most of us don't want it, however the occasional free beer is much appreciated. Not to mention some of your movie uploads in the other section

For the most part I don't get vocal on this issue because it's obviously a sensitive one. Once in a while if I'm out and someone is very vocal about their opinions and I can't help overhear I'll pipe up. I just get tired when people base their opinions on one or two things....

1) there is nothing else going on in the world so other than who controls the oil what other reason can it be

2) It's GW fininshing the job for his father.

If you and your loved ones were treated like Saddam was treating his people you would hope and pray someone would come rescue you as well. That is one thing I can vouch for, is how people there were treated there or under any dictatorship for that matter. I first served in the late 80s through early 90s and then was called back this time around. I've been around a little bit, including the Gulf twice and Bosnia. What people do to other people just, well, isn't pretty.

 

[D_Marazion Analdouche]

Choco, she is doing precisely what Shelby and Faceking always refer to as "playing the victim"... of course, they only point it out when it's one o' them liberals.

It's an old tactic, and about the only one the "conservatives" know how to use. Challenging that tactic only holds about the interest a 5-year-old has when he pokes a dead squirrel with a stick. He knows he's not going to get a response, but he does it once anyway, just to make sure.

And if anette won't address one specific question of mine, I'll ask anyone else who has pointed out that it's the military's duty to do what they are told. And I will go back to anette's analogy of the fireman.

When a person decides to become a firefighter, yes, he is aware that he may put his own life in danger. Fighting fires is his job. Does that still mean he should hold no animosity toward an arsonist?

I really do not see that as being much different than any servicemember or veteran feeling betrayed when sent to a war in which we have no business, commenced on false pretenses, and artificially extended to maximize profit.

I take it you didn't read my post, or just not have an opinion about it?

This is a link to an old analogy but a large portion of it rings true. It's too long to take up forum space, if you're interested read it.

War explained to an 9 year old. | Blogged Bull

 

[Flashy]

No thanks needed, most of us don't want it, however the occasional free beer is much appreciated. Not to mention some of your movie uploads in the other section

For the most part I don't get vocal on this issue because it's obviously a sensitive one. Once in a while if I'm out and someone is very vocal about their opinions and I can't help overhear I'll pipe up. I just get tired when people base their opinions on one or two things....

1) there is nothing else going on in the world so other than who controls the oil what other reason can it be

2) It's GW fininshing the job for his father.

If you and your loved ones were treated like Saddam was treating his people you would hope and pray someone would come rescue you as well. That is one thing I can vouch for, is how people there were treated there or under any dictatorship for that matter. I first served in the late 80s through early 90s and then was called back this time around. I've been around a little bit, including the Gulf twice and Bosnia. What people do to other people just, well, isn't pretty.

perfectly said...please consider the vids my beer to you :smile:

 

[faceking]

I like to think a society, albeit waning (and slightly dystopian), still exists.


Whether there is a liberal media bias or not (btw, there is bias to everything), you, and everyone else, have the ability to think independently. I assume. So what is the issue?

The problem with that... is there is a lot of dumb America that is spoon fed by the media. The mainstream media could make just about any issue to the forefront.

I do believe there is a media bias that is clearly liberal across radio and TV, it is clearly proven that the few right leaning outlets are all #1... with a country that is 50%.

Fox News has been number one, I think I just saw for 37 months. Reason being is it is the lone outlet, stacked against CBS, NBC, NPR, CNN, ABC.
Same for radio... Rush, Hannity have huge ratings because for decades the "everyday" major city radio talk shows have been predominantly liberal leaning.

 

[faceking]

Choco, she is doing precisely what Shelby and Faceking always refer to as "playing the victim"... of course, they only point it out when it's one o' them liberals.

It's an old tactic, and about the only one the "conservatives" know how to use.

A bit of credibility just went wawoosh... down the drain with that statement. Much less you've assumed I'm conservative. Strike two.

 

[Northland]

1) I served in a "pure combat unit" and with that said if anyone in my unit was happy to be going to war I wouldn't want to stand next to him in combat. Nobody "likes" war, we signed up to do our jobs.

2) I believe that going to war with Iraq was the right thing to do. Please read my entire explanation before hitting the reply button.

3) We should have finished/buttoned up Afghanistan first, our resources regarding personnel are stretched too thin.

4) The War would have been more excepted if Bush came out and said why we are actually going in. I'll list my reasons or what I believe next....

5) First it is about oil, yes people will make money off of it, but it was also to keep it and/or the money from it out of the wrong hands (terrorists).

6) Look at a map of the Middle East, we now have a footprint in Iraq and Afghanistan. What/Who is in the middle? This War is also about making and establishing a presence in the theatre. Again refer to my point #3, I think we just moved on Iraq too soon.

7) People are screaming blood for oil etc, have we been hit since 9/11? If you think we have not made a dent on their ability to carry out further operations by hurting them on their own soil you are delusional. Is there still a lot of work to be done, obviously. However, it is the job of the men and women that serve to protect the people that live in the homeland. And I would say so far we've done a good job at that. I am also not naive and understand that people have and will make money off the war and I know it's not us troops. This is not new to warfare. People made money during WWII, Korea, Vietnam, etc etc etc. This isn't news at all.

8 Coming from someone that has buried friends, I can still look at this semi-objectively. Yes any life lost is a tragedy, however we as a nation have become spoiled by the "push button" war of Desert Storm. Considering we have occupied a country the size of California the casulity list is not that extensive. 4+ years of WWII we had over 400K casulities. And people also forget that we lost a lot of people during the occupation of Germany post VE day, guerrllia warfare occured there too.

9 This next comment I speak from my experience and also know that I'm not speaking for every single person. The soldier on the ground/sea/air doesn't think about the politics that goes into these conflicts. They do two things, do your best to make sure you and your buddy come home safe, and two, takes pride in knowing you are keeping people at home safe and you are doing some good in the country you are liberating. Yes I look at Iraq as a liberation, as a whole people there are living better lives. You can't expect strip malls and movie theaters built and running in a couple years

10) By no stretch of the imagination do I think the Government has handled this perfectly. I say Government because I've said this before in another thread, Congress voted for the war, it wasn't just a Republican ideal. Democrats also sit on the Intel commitee that we got all those nice pictures of the WMDs that Colin Powell was showing everybody. But what do you think would happen if we didn't push the issue in the Middle East and we were hit here again at home? Granted it's speculation that something would happen, but what if it did? People would be screaming our Government isn't protecting us.

I don't think my opinion counts more than someones that wasn't there, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

Nicely stated, 98% agreed with (I rarely agree with everything).

Now, speaking as an actual Iraqi who has lost some family members (cousins and that sort), let me add, STOP BLAMING GEORGE W. BUSH for all of this. It was a long time coming and it built up over several years. Go back to the time to when the U.S.A. pushed the late Saddam Hussein into power. Go back even further and see other places and times when the U.S.A. has interfered in the day to day operations of Iraq. And not just the U.S.A., Great Britain did their part as well, along with a few other nations which had no right or justification to enter.

At the end of the day, George Bush and George W. Bush have just continued a long legacy of power play and murder. I do not have a rampant hatred for George W. Bush, he believed that this was the correct way to go. Why? Because of faulty information. Information which, for those who need to be reminded, was partially accumulated under previous presidencies (and not just Clinton and Papa Bush). These things build up and then when someone steps forward with the belief that there is indeed a need to set certain deadly actions into motion, that person is the one who is decried as the villain.

Weapons of mass destruction may well never have been found, there is however clear evidence that it was at the very least planned. There are receptacles in the ground to hold missiles-what? you honestly believe those were just to hold excess rain water or barley? Maybe stolen toys from ToysForTots or maybe that's where Waldo has been hiding. Saddam and his cohorts had quite a bit of time to remove any actual weapons prior to the inspections taking place which claimed there were none. Need I remind everyone of how long it took before those inspections were allowed?

And how about we all take a look-a real good hard look-at the number of underground tunnels and bunkers over in Iraq. Do you honestly think that it would not be possible to secrete chemicals and weapons in some of those locations?




Those who so desire, may now resume their generalized, misinformed and ill-informed, Bush bashing festival in the same way which is always done. {Keep in mind though (to quote some whacked out woman) "It takes a village".}

 

[tripod]

For the most part I don't get vocal on this issue because it's obviously a sensitive one. Once in a while if I'm out and someone is very vocal about their opinions and I can't help overhear I'll pipe up. I just get tired when people base their opinions on one or two things....

1) there is nothing else going on in the world so other than who controls the oil what other reason can it be

2) It's GW fininshing the job for his father.

Those two things don't concern me one bit and I am a flaming liberal.

If you and your loved ones were treated like Saddam was treating his people you would hope and pray someone would come rescue you as well. That is one thing I can vouch for, is how people there were treated there or under any dictatorship for that matter. I first served in the late 80s through early 90s and then was called back this time around. I've been around a little bit, including the Gulf twice and Bosnia. What people do to other people just, well, isn't pretty.

Well you have a point there...

We never invaded Iraq because of the plight of the Iraqi people though... that is nonsense, the U.S. has never cared for the plight of anyone outside of it's own borders. This country has strong isolationist roots. Saudi Arabia is about as nasty as a despotic middle East regime can be and we are their GOOD allies. It's not about how leaders treat their population... our foreign policy never has been about that. If that were the case, we would have gone in and rescued sooooo many people from their despotic rulers over the years and we did no such thing.

We allow the government of Sudan to militarily back the killing of thousands of innocent people... way more than Saddam ever killed (not including the Iran/Irag war).

 

[DC_DEEP]

Dong20, though you and I may disagree on several things within your post, we do agree on others. Lovely post sir- and I read every word, but don't be surprised if it is ignored or chopped up and then you are later charged with having not said anything interesting or profound. In fact most people will go into it immediately trying to decipher if you are in essence 'for the war' or 'against the war' and ignore, the larger picture.

You've said something similar, and done a bit of chopping on your own, quite a lot in this thread. I'll ask again, where do you get this knowledge, especially after only having been on this site for a few days?

What do you know that we don't?

So my point is, you ask, about citing specific examples of blatant pep rally cheering against the president and his administration a media newsroom? Is that a trick question?

anyway... thanks for the engaging conversation people

Why is it that if anyone says anything remotely negative about the current administration, it's "cheerleading", but if anyone defends illegal actions of the current administration, it's "patriotism?"

I take it you didn't read my post, or just not have an opinion about it?

This is a link to an old analogy but a large portion of it rings true. It's too long to take up forum space, if you're interested read it.

War explained to an 9 year old. | Blogged Bull

Yes, I did read your post - after I had hit the "submit reply" button. I don't always necessarily sit at the computer non-stop. Your reply was not there when I began composing that.

But I'll ask you - you didn't read my posts, either, did you?