The war in Iraq

Rugbypup

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Thank you NIC.

My only frame of reference for this was a US work placement guy who open shouted about Saddam bombing the twin towers because he hated Americas love of freedom.

While i think you can be a little aggressive in first contact situations, you are clearly an intelligent guy and I respect that.
 

D_Roland_D_Hay

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There were a lot of us who felt that way, pup. But what happened was that the Bush administration pulled what I call a "McCarthy". And that is to whip up the nationalistic notions of the American people so strongly that to offer any dissent was considered "unpatriotic". In fact, GWB suggested that time after time.

Americans are very vulnerable to manipulation like this, and it is unfortunate that it is so easy to do. The sentiment was so strong that most elected officials voted the way the public sentiment was going.

A famous quote comes to mind:

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”​
A couple more quotes come to mind:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”​
“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”​
Can anyone identify who said these things?

I think you very eloquently answered the question that Rugpup posed.
 

SteveHd

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It's factually correct (UK soldiers did die) and he didn't say only, you did - he was writing from a UK perspective...:rolleyes:
I edited my post and changed to "You [RP] only mentioned: UK soldiers died ... very telling." The previous was badly worded.

RP, my apologies.
 

D_Roland_D_Hay

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Rug, I can't speak for all Americans, but I do believe that there was a frenzy of anti terrorism whipped up and many agreed it was a good idea to go to war at the time. However, that has changed over time and polls are showing that many Americans want our troops back.
 

Rugbypup

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I edited my post and changed to "You [RP] only mentioned: UK soldiers died ... very telling." The previous was badly worded.

RP, my apologies.

Thank you, however my statment said nothing more telling than the UK was lied to by the UK government on fales UK intel and UK soldiers died as a result.

I was speaking from a UK point of view.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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more of herr goebbels greatest hits (he really was a genius ahead of his time):

“Intellectual activity is a danger to the building of character”

“Think of the press as a great keyboard on which the government can play.”

“If the German people lay down their weapons, the Soviets, according to the agreement between Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin, would occupy all of East and Southeast Europe along with the greater part of the Reich. An iron curtain would fall over this enormous territory controlled by the Soviet Union, behind which nations would be slaughtered.”

"During a war, news should be given out for instruction rather than information."

"It is the absolute right of the State to supervise the formation of public opinion."

"Whoever can conquer the street will one day conquer the state, for every form of power politics and any dictatorship-run state has its roots in the street."


did you also know it was he that coined the term Iron Curtain?
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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Very close. The first one is Goering, and the last two are Goebbels.



whoops. well I didn't actually recognize the first quote and didn't mean to attribute both to Goebbels.

Read those quotes again and then watch this video of a GWB speech. The unimportant parts were edited out.
This can be done with virtually any political speech/interview/debate these days. They call it "staying on message," but obviously the technique is nothing that hasn't been around since at least 1938
 

Rugbypup

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Americans were told the same exact things that Brits were. This is why your question is so perplexing. see above edit.

The British were given a fair bit on Al Qaeda as a national security threat but nothing past a wooly comment of WMD about Iraq. The term 'war on terror' never sat well in the UK, presumable because it would lead to an open ended war.

I was assuming you would know all of that. So I was also assuming your question was not legitimate and was instead rhetorical and you were trying to prove some other point.

If i've learnt one thing it's never to assume how a nations media show them something deeply political. The build up to war was covered very differently in the UK and US. Plus if i was being rhetorical and thus a troll, I've would have been a lot nastier and left troll shit on the floor as i walked. lol
 

JustAsking

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My thanks also to JustAsking, I am very interested in how Americans saw and see all this.

Rugby,
America is a huge country made up of a large number of cultural groups and ideologies. Although there is a strong thread of nationalism here that can be easily invoked, there are also plenty of people who very quickly realized that the war was a sham.

I would say almost all of us average citizens were swayed by the arguments that Saddam had WMD and many of us believed what the administration was telling us about Iraqui links to terrorism.

But as the war unfolded, I think I can say that the country began to be divided into two camps. Those who watched each of the purported threats disappear day by day began to realize that the war was a sham. Another camp was so idealogically attuned to this administration and a kind of blind nationalistic zeal that they clung to all of the false claims for our needing to go to war like they clung to their religious faith.

Your example of the American worker saying that Iraqui terrorists bombed the WTC is a good example of the astonishing denial that most of those people were in for a very long time. I heard all kinds of illogical things from the very conservative people who lived here in the midwest where I live. For example, I would say, "I think this war was a mistake and it is actually increasing the threat of terrorism.". And I would get this response from a glazed eye zealot, "But then that would mean that our troops are dying in vain.". Now mind you, this was being offered as a kind of rebuttal to my concern. If you can catch the subtlety of this, it implies that the troops and the war, being sacred, are not open to any challenges from reality because that would take the war's name in vain.

For a long time if you made any kind of complaint someone would say, "You don't support our troops!". That worked for a while, until everyone began to see through that ruse. I used to counter that one with, "You just want to see our troops die needlessly."

Anyway, the blatant living in denial for most Americans lasted even up to the 2004 elections where it hadn't faded enough and John Kerry was not up to the task of winning the election.

These days, you will find plenty of people speaking openly about the fact that they were totally lied to about the war, that the war was a collosal mistake, and that we may have created much more terrorism than we prevented. Even many Republicans have lost faith with the Bush administration. You will notice that not one Republican candidate invokes GWB as an ally.

The times will change over the next year and after the next election we will start looking back and seeing how much of a nightmare this whole 8 years has been. Record national debt, stunningly incompetent gov't agencies, over half million dead in Iraq, a mideast that is more unstable than ever, and the world's most successful terrorist recruiting campaign ever (war in Iraq), totally funded by the USA at the expense of the lives of over 3000 of its children. In the meantime, Saudi Arabia, where most of the 9/11 terrorist came from are called our allies along with Pakistan where Al Qaeda has settled with immunity along its Afghan border.

Oh yeah, not to mention Afghanistan, under the US military's supervision, is now the worlds most prolific exporter of opium.

Two more of my favorite quotes:

"Mission Accomplished."
"Heck of a job, Brownie?"

Edit: Oh yes, and the media completely and totally dropped the ball on all of this. They were such cowards until they were woken up and galvanized by the aftermath of Katrina. Here is a video of a popular journalist in the immediate aftermath of Katrina, speaking the outrage that all Americans suddenly began to feel about how well the government was working. I think these few days marked the beginning of the end for Republican government in the USA.
 

Rugbypup

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Saudi is an allie because, and i hate to say this, it's the second largest exporter of oil to the US.

Likewise Afgan opium has been of much debate in the UK because the UK uses if not wants it for the production of morphines for the NHS.

Leaving Pakistan, which is nuclear muslim nation and has a child llike temper in politics.

I find it all a little perverse.
 

JustAsking

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Oh yes, and the media completely and totally dropped the ball on all of this. They were such cowards until they were woken up and galvanized by the aftermath of Katrina. Here is a video of a popular journalist in the immediate aftermath of Katrina, speaking the outrage that all Americans suddenly began to feel about how well the government was working. I think these few days marked the beginning of the end for Republican government in the USA.
 

D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead

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Following up on what JustAsking wrote above, those two camps ... those basically in favor of the war, those basically against ... have not stayed static. If you track opinion polls since the US went into Iraq, there has been a steady and overall dramatic shift from the majority of people being in favor of what we are doing, to being overwhelmingly opposed.

You can also feel that "Supporting the troops" no longer means "supporting the incursion into Iraq." We have brave troops and deeply flawed leaders.

One bit of good news about the coming election is that of the three major candidates left ... Obama, Clinton and McCain ... none of them are likely to pursue as breathtakingly incompetent a strategy as Bush as pursued. Even the one supporter of the war, John McCain, is a former military guy and unlikely to use the military in ways it can not succeed. I disagree with Hillary's vote on the war, but I think she would surround herself with people who would be smart on both terrorism and the military, and not try and solve our security problems by attacking the one middle-eastern country that didn't have issues with Muslim extremists. And Obama has been against the war all along. So let's all hold out for George's Last Day, 1/20/09.