The war in Iraq

[Industrialsize]

hey, I posted that clip trying to help END a war not start one...

 

[Rugbypup]

You can never reach the end if you dont know the beginning.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

One reason for the GOP's obligation to start a wars is because their largest campaign contributors are usually arms manufacturers. From Lockheed to Northrop, The GOP can guarantee these business a long, protracted war. If there is no country that poses an appreciable threat, then one of the following must be done:

1. Wag the dog and construct an invisible enemy. Reagan was incredibly proficient at this -- getting Americans to spend $1 trillion on the Star Wars project to protect America from Soviet ICBMs. This venture was bogus and didn't accomplish anything. It astounds me that Americans were gullible enough to pay for nothing but $3,000 toilet seats. Since the budget was top secret, we'll never know who really got rich; It certainly wasn't the American people.
2. Choose a poor country with a small military on the other side of the world. Spin their appearance and make them into a threatening "rogue state." Of course, the Geneva convention and the U.N. won't permit the U.S. to attack for no good reason. Make some cartoon diagrams and get a credible looking guy like Colin Powell to claim that this small, poor country is a huge threat to the world.... and hope that France keeps quiet.

I am all for the Iraqi pullout, but I don't think that it will go smoothly; Saddam was a tyrant, but he used his iron fist to keep relative peace between the Sunnis and the Shiites. If the Americans pull out, there needs to be a U.N. peacekeeping force installed that will prevent an Iran-backed civil war in Iraq.

As thousands of Iraqi civilians die each month, Bush continues to insist that he knows exactly what he's doing in Iraq. Of course, he also said that the war would last "a few months," that the war was good for the economy, and that there were WMDs in Iraq. As he said himself, history will prove his laudability.

There were a lot of us who felt that way, pup. But what happened was that the Bush administration pulled what I call a "McCarthy". And that is to whip up the nationalistic notions of the American people so strongly that to offer any dissent was considered "unpatriotic". In fact, GWB suggested that time after time.

The undeniably illegal "Patriot" act was passed by browbeating the House. It's possibly the most unconstitutional act ever created, all done under the frenzied cloud of 9/11. I suppose in times of crisis a government can either protect it's people or take advantage of them.

I believe that McCarthyism only works with every second generation or so, and JustAsking's second quote seems to support this. Americans seem to eventually get wise to their subjugators and eventually turn on them -- whether it be Joe McCarthy, Jim Baker or George W. Bush. I doubt that Bush will face a significant backlash, but I'm sure, as with the aforementioned, there will be plenty of people asking, "What every happened to?" A few decades from now. Bush's approval rating is now 18%. This a record low for any president. He has ruined the Republican party to advance his own agenda.

Americans are very vulnerable to manipulation like this, and it is unfortunate that it is so easy to do. The sentiment was so strong that most elected officials voted the way the public sentiment was going.

Unfortunately Americans haven't learned much from McCarthyism. I wonder if it's even taught in public schools. How many livelihoods and reputations were immutably devastated from that witch hunt?

Yes, many in America openly opposed the war even from the very beginning. They were in the minority. The spinsters had done their job.

When Saddam was deposed and the Battle for Baghdad was over, their numbers grew.

Mission accomplished. That's when the troops should have been pulled out.

The Americans were sold on a quick and painless little war. Those who thought that it was a bad idea were ridiculed by the spinsters and were told this war might last a few months at most, that the country was so oil rich that it would pay for its own reconstruction, that the American troops would be greeted as liberators, and that once Saddam was out of the way democracy would flourish and all would be right as rain.

As the weeks and months dragged on public opinion turned increasingly more and more against the war. You can find charts that track this change. The 2006 mid-term elections, in which Democrats won significant victories in both houses of congress, was seen by most as a referendum on the war and the president and as evidence that the American people were now staunchly against both.

I didn't know you were so anti-American.




"The point is we have had a good battle plan, and it's a battle plan that will succeed." -- Colin L. Powell.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Did you mean to say infrastructure? I can't imagine anything destroying their reserves. Maybe underground nukes?

bombs. and yes, they're armed and ready.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

I didn't know you were so anti-American.

There are a good many things you don't know, but in point of fact, I'm not anti-anybody or pro-anybody, except myself.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

There are a good many things you don't know, but in point of fact, I'm not anti-anybody or pro-anybody, except myself.

You seem to be very pro-American to me. I don't know you, but I can read and, unless you are lying, your words tell a different story.

You are quick to accuse me of being anti-American. You are quick to verbally attack my country. I wish you would be honest with yourself.

 

[findfirefox]

There are a good many things you don't know, but in point of fact, I'm not anti-anybody or pro-anybody, except myself.

Being Pro-Self means that you are going to Pro-Whatever the hell helps you.

I choose to think thats a bit inaccurate on your part.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

Being Pro-Self means that you are going to Pro-Whatever the hell helps you.

I choose to think thats a bit inaccurate on your part.

So I'm self defeating? That implies that you know exactly what motivates me and what my goals are, which seems highly presumptuous. Or that you know what's best for me, also highly presumptuous.

You seem to be very pro-American to me. I don't know you, but I can read and, unless you are lying, your words tell a different story.

You are quick to accuse me of being anti-American. You are quick to verbally attack my country. I wish you would be honest with yourself.

I can explain this. You're wrong.

More specifically, you have pigeonholed me just as you probably pigeonhole most Americans, or perhaps as you pigeonhole anybody who disagrees with your point of view, or maybe even as you pigeonhole people in general. I can't say, I don't know you that well or follow your posts that closely, but you are most certainly nothing short of completely ignorant of who I am or what makes me tick.

As for attacking your country, I was attacking the idiocy of certain posters in that thread, which you got caught up in when you rushed in frothing at the mouth to defend Canada. I was being pro-rational-thought. You took an off-the-cuff remark and jumped down my throat about it and a back and forth followed that shouldn't have even involved you. If anyone was displaying irrational national pride there it was you, not I.

You assume that I am pro-US because I don't just flatly accept any bigoted thing that is said about the country or its people, which happens to include me by virtue of the fact I was born there. When someone says something outrageously stupid or unfair about "Americans"- which includes me- I correct them on it. Your personal biases against the country and the large chip you carry on your shoulder regarding your dislike of American foreign or economic policy make this seem like something it is not.

I'm actually quite fond of many different countries and cultures. It's not my fault that I was born here or that I carry a US passport. Morons grouping me and all other Americans together and collectively insulting them affects me more than it affects Canadians, naturally I respond more to it than you do and am more aware of it than you are. It doesn't mean I am pro-US. I'm far less patriotic than many of you imagine me to be. I'll argue for the stupidity of threads entitled "why X country is the best in the world" regardless of what variable X is, and I'll point out the double-standard when variable X is the USA or when variable X is any other country in the world when and where I see it, whether it offends your sensibilities or not.

 

[D_Tintagel_Demondong]

So I'm self defeating? That implies that you know exactly what motivates me and what my goals are, which seems highly presumptuous. Or that you know what's best for me, also highly presumptuous.



I can explain this. You're wrong.

I am not going to embarass you by quoting posts that you made in the previous few weeks and proving how horribly wrong you are. I'm here for you bud.

But keep up the good work

 

[findfirefox]

So I'm self defeating? That implies that you know exactly what motivates me and what my goals are, which seems highly presumptuous. Or that you know what's best for me, also highly presumptuous.

You pretty much said you are "pro-self", which is perfectly fine, everyone else. Very few if any people do not want whats best for them. Due to the fact you want the best for yourself (as do I) you should align yourself with the group (or in this case governments) most likely to suit your needs.

I'm really not sure why your considering this a bad thing...

Oh, and I don't think your masochistic (just yet). :wink:

 

[SteveHd]

hey, I posted that clip trying to help END a war not start one...

Many wars have been started accidentally. Shall we call this an "unintended consequence"? :smile:

bombs. and yes, they're armed and ready.

I simply don't believe that.

 

[B_NineInchCock_160IQ]

I simply don't believe that.

You may be right but it's generally accepted in the intelligence community that you are not. Of course, this isn't the best thread to be using the intelligence community for an appeal to authority.

You pretty much said you are "pro-self", which is perfectly fine, everyone else. Very few if any people do not want whats best for them. Due to the fact you want the best for yourself (as do I) you should align yourself with the group (or in this case governments) most likely to suit your needs.

I'm really not sure why your considering this a bad thing...

I don't think my needs align with the needs of any particular government.

I am not going to embarass you by quoting posts that you made in the previous few weeks and proving how horribly wrong you are. I'm here for you bud.

But keep up the good work

Knock yourself out. I'm so ready to get pwned again. are you 12?

 

[findfirefox]

I don't think my needs align with the needs of any particular government.

Now that may be true. :smile:

I could drag this on further, but its Sunday and I'm tired.

 

[D_Wilburforce Throttlebottom]

Give me a break,,,all you cry in your granola, America sucks types really have no clue about either war or human nature. Human beings have been fighting each other for eons. Its just the continuation of a political process by another means. The Islamo-facists who currently are stirring things up want what they want (a return to islam of all the lands ever conquerqued by muslims including a good portion of europe; the suborndination of women; & gasp the execution of homosexuals among others) The US & most of the rest of the world has a different view, & yes we are willing to fight against it.

So before you deride the greatest nation ever formed, consider that at the earliest, yes the earliest opportunity that these fanatics have to light off a nuke or other WMD in a Western city, they will do it. No negotiation, no warning no "lets all get along BS & talk about it at a peace rally/conference crap" They will do it, absolutly & without apology.

So go ahead get your panties in a ruffle, of course all nations lie you idiots, they have to they have people, interests, & security to protect.

And yes, the 18,19,20 somethings that fight for america & protect your right to hate it, love what they do. I mean where else can you get to kill the human debri that would kill all of us, our children & everything we hold sacred.

Go out & do something with your lives, make the world a better place by participating with your brothers in arms & quit your whining.

 

[Rugbypup]

Jesus Christ.... you child!

 

[dong20]

Jesus Christ.... you child!

Either a bannee or someone took one to many angry pills.

I didn't think humans had been around for aeons, so I more or less stopped reading at that point.

 

[Rugbypup]

It's so hard not ot bite them.

Comments like that either come from trolls and we all know you must not feed a troll, or from a seriousely uneducated person.

 

[findfirefox]

Give me a break,,,all you cry in your granola, America sucks types really have no clue about either war or human nature. Human beings have been fighting each other for eons. Its just the continuation of a political process by another means. The Islamo-facists who currently are stirring things up want what they want (a return to islam of all the lands ever conquerqued by muslims including a good portion of europe; the suborndination of women; & gasp the execution of homosexuals among others) The US & most of the rest of the world has a different view, & yes we are willing to fight against it.

Human beings have fought for eons, but does that really make it the best way to get all things done? You make your argument sound strange (and by proxy stupid) by pointing out obvious facts.

Are we really fighting the "Islamo-fascists"? I think that's a good portion of the argument. Are we fighting our real enemies or are we fighting some figment of the governments imagination.

So before you deride the greatest nation ever formed, consider that at the earliest, yes the earliest opportunity that these fanatics have to light off a nuke or other WMD in a Western city, they will do it. No negotiation, no warning no "lets all get along BS & talk about it at a peace rally/conference crap" They will do it, absolutly & without apology.

What makes this the "greatest nation" ever? As time continues I continue to doubt that statement.

You are quite sure of yourself aren't you? There is always some form of discussion between any group of more then one person before doing something...

So go ahead get your panties in a ruffle, of course all nations lie you idiots, they have to they have people, interests, & security to protect.

To what extent to our nations need to lie is also a good question. Should our government hide its true intentions are be flat out with its people? Should it be accepted that we are lied to?

And yes, the 18,19,20 somethings that fight for america & protect your right to hate it, love what they do. I mean where else can you get to kill the human debri that would kill all of us, our children & everything we hold sacred.

My uncle would beg to differ, being a Marine who thinks all of this is insane.

Then again he came from a liberal family in a liberal area...

Go out & do something with your lives, make the world a better place by participating with your brothers in arms & quit your whining.

Are you a military recruiter? Is shooting people and blowing others up really making the world a better place?

As a side note you should really through your posts through Microsoft Word and let it run a little spell check.

 

[Rugbypup]

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS! lol

 

[D_Wilburforce Throttlebottom]

Lol,,I am in the military, I don't have time for spell ck, & most of you are not worth the time to edit my posts for. That would be an assumption that I either cared what you thought, or wanted to impress you. Neither is true.

Go ahead & continue your little anti-military, hate america party. Feel free to tell each other how smart you are. The rest of us will do something about it & keep you free.

I hope you enjoy it, you can thank me later.

I'm out. Peace