The war in Iraq

D_Gunther Snotpole

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If one is true (Bush inherited a crisis that happened "only" 8 months in and can't be held accountable) the other can't be (Reagan accomplished something before he even took office).

I think such a statement is logical enough but not necessarily true.
Some things could take far longer than 8 months to gestate, and so a president only in office for that length of time might be partly off the hook.
The case of Reagan supposedly having an effect before he even held the powers of the POTUS is likewise possible, since it relies merely on the Iranians having certain beliefs in their heads about what Bonzo's friend might do, once his hands were on the levers of power.
Everything depends on the particular circumstances.
Of course, as you say, partisan biases shouldn't enter into this matter.
 

Phil Ayesho

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9-11 was not Clinton's fault.
Not Bush's fault. ( despite his admin's refusal to take seriously intelligence collected by the Clinton Admin)

The whole point of a sucker punch is that you are hitting a guy where and when he least expects it.


All the security measures in airports today are immaterial and un- needed..
no one will ever successfully take control of another airplane in flight.
At least, not as long as there are more than a handful of Americans aboard.

The only security measure needed is to tell passengers not to tolerate hijackings.

And the terrorists are done with planes... they are moving on to try and find our next blind spot... the area we are NOT watching, the vulnerability we have overlooked.



The real shame of Bush is that all the terrorists did was knock down two buildings.
It took BUSH to shred our constitution... to build the first American Gulag at gitmo, to make the actions of a few thousand jerks into the entire focus of the most powerful nation on earth.

It took Bush to take the worldwide sympathy for the US for the 9/11 tragedy and squander it into allowing the terorists to make us look exactly like the tyrannical, imperialist bullies thay have characterized us as.

It took BUSH and the republican party to CO_OPT the tactics of Terror to frighten the US populace into backing their fascist agenda.

The terrorists are winning this war, because Bush is giving to them exactly what they want... notoriety, relevance, and the focus of the entire US economy.

Bush has said that they "hate us for our Freedoms"- so his strategy has been to strip our freedoms away.

The US has lost prestige, money, lives, the respect of the free world,...
and all of this has been a dodge while the republicans have sold off US economic strength to enrich a handful of powerful and rich corporate friends.

Our constitution eroded, the separation of church and state- the most important single achievement of American democracy has been undermined...


While Cheney counts the 100 million he's made on Halliburton stock, and Haliburton takes the 20 billion Cheney gave them and moves their HQ to Dubai... so the US courts can not investigate them.

Sorry...
Iraq has been the most monumentally stupid and disastrous mistake in American history.
And the neocon fascists who have destroyed the republican party have done far more damage to this nation than all the terrorists in the world put together ever could.


And Americans idiotically wave their foam fingers and chant that we are number one... when there is practically no leading indicator in which we are in the top 10.
Our infrastructure crumbles, we hinder science education in favor of ancient fairy tales, we allow our economy to become a credit economy...we let the rich off of taxation and allow HMOs to strip the middle class of every cent they ever made...

we hire armies of mercenaries to do the jobs we no longer can bother to draft our own soldiers to do...

folks... this is the fall of rome, all over again...
this is the decline of the British empire...

Wake up... toss out the christian fascist right wing... demand politicians stop diverting your attention with bullshit issues like gay marriage and flag burning and terrorism and start demanding they PLAN FOR A FUTURE ECONOMY by funding biotechnology research... which will make electornics look like chump change in the coming century.

wake up... or kiss American dominance goodbye... it won't last long.
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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Rec,
A superb posting. I agree with all of it including the unfortunate duping of a fine American with many years of service, Colin Powell. They used him as the straight man in their conning of the American public and spit him out the other side.

I did have one thing to add about the StarWars project, though. I was never a Reagan fan, and I think he started one of the biggest divisions of culture in America in a long time.

As for SW, I am not sure if this was his idea, an idea from his staff, or neo-conservatism just getting lucky. But in my estimation, the StarWars project was one of the most successful military projects since the atomic bomb. Here is my logic:

First of all, the project was astonishgly ambitious. It required a number of technical innovations that did not yet exist at the time, and some of them may not even exist now. The probability of it working was pretty low if not zero. But the genius of the Reagan administration is the realization that "perception is reality". If you can get the general public to doubt science and engineering, you can also get them to expect things from it that are probably not possible.

So here is my version of the plan.
  1. Define an ambitious space based defense system that will make the US completely invulnerable to attack by ICBM. If you accomplish this level of defense, you rule the world because the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction would be defunct.
  2. Base the strategy on a series of necessary technical breakthroughs in a number of cutting edge areas that are very very ambitious. For example, massively parallel computing systems, languages and networks. Also, high powered laser technology, and radio communications.
  3. Start funding all the major defense contractors for projects related to StarWars, and fund every little company that also wants to contribute. The trillion dollars is really not a problem, because it will all go back into the economy anyway and whether SW is successful or not, it will have funded advances in military technology that ordinarily would have not been developed for decades.
  4. Foster endless academic and engineering debates at conferences and in the professional journals debating the various ways in which each breakthrough may or may not be established. Although you know that many of the breakthroughs won't be achieved, this step 4 is perhaps the most important part because if step 5.
  5. Leak a lot of information about SW to the Russians and know that naturally they will be studying all the technical journals.
  6. The Russians are now scared shitless because who would ever bet against the USA in areas like computer science, laser technology, and aerospace engineering. From all the activity in the journals and all the money being spent, the Russians will see a virtual tidal wave of activity that cannot be faked on such a large scale. Even if it looks iffy, the Russians cannot afford to gamble on the USA failing.
  7. Even wiith a faltering economy, the Russians now start work on their own similar project, and since they have some confidence in their own engineering prowess, they just start spending and spending on it thinking that they should be able to catch up. Additionally, the Russians think they know something more about certain particle beam technologies, so they think they can do an SW their own way.
  8. Ultimately, the Russians go broke never achieving anything that looks like it would work as an SW defense, all the while the furious development activity in the USA continues.
  9. Russia's economy collapses, the Berlin Wall comes down, and the East Germans trade in their Skodas for Mercedes.
  10. The US cancels the SW project and harvests the fruits of a trillion dollars of investment in computer, network, laser, and space technologies for the next 20 years.
By Jove, I think it just might work.

I appreciate your enlightend post, JA. Nonetheless, the alleged purpose of Star Wars was not fulfilled. There is no global ICBM protection system in place. It seems possible that Star Wars possibly helped usher the collapse of the Soviet Union. I don't think that this was really the American Government's design; It defeats the dog wagging theory.

I may have been too quick to blame the government for the inclination to wage wars. The Central Bank is more to blame--using the American Government as it's lacky.

"A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -- President Woodrow Wilson.

America has been taken over by money manipulators; an elite few who control most of the cashflow in the U.S. via the Central Bank. This bank controls interest rates and the money supply (inflation).

Many Americans, possibly most, seem to believe that the American Government is the body that gives money to the citizens. In fact, it’s The American Federal Reserve which supplies, and controls, all of the money in America.

The Federal Reserve is a private company. It make it’s own policies which are not regulated by the government. It loans money to the government at interest – interest which it determines itself. Basically put, the Federal Reserve has America by the balls.

"Under the Federal Reserve Act, panics are scientifically created." – Charles Lindbergh, Investor, Aviator

As you will, hopefully, read later, the Federal Reserve uses it’s economic influence to control the U.S. Federal government and her people. Nothing is more profitable for the American international bankers than war. It’s a tried and true tool for profit and control.

Since the inception of the Federal Reserve in 1913, America was involved in four major wars (WWI, WWII, Vietnam, and Iraq). The most lucrative situation for bankers to make money is war. It requires the government to borrow massive amounts of money from the Federal Reserve Bank.

The large banking interests were deeply interested in the world war because of the wide opportunities for large profits.” -- William Jenning Bryan, U.S. Secretary of State.

From the Sinking of the Lusitania, the Tonkin Destroyers, etc., we know that the American government brought itself into most of it’s modern wars -- if not all of them. The wave of public anger after events like Pearl Harbor and 9/11 brought on a lust for accountability, massive enlistment, and carte blanche permission for the government to create unofficial martial law.

Imagine J.D. Rockerfeller (A Federal Reserve member) making $1.9 Trillion from WWI. This is possibly the most profitable private venture in world history. The Rockerfellers also made a fortune in Vietnam by setting up arms manufacturing plants in Russia (to fight the Americans in Vietnam).

"Its preparations are concealed, not published. Its mistakes are buried, not headlined. Its dissenters are silenced, not praised. No expenditure is questioned, no rumor is printed, no secret is revealed. It conducts the Cold War, in short, with a war-time discipline no democracy would ever hope or wish to match." – President John F. Kennedy

The ultimate way to wag the dog is to create a war on terror. It's a surefire method to scare the public enough to invigorate their reactionary impulses. It’s the safest way to declare war on a faceless enemy. Cold wars can cause dangerous superpower posturing. Wars on terror are relegated to skirmishes.

"The entire U.S. ruling class, ruling elite, comes to see terrorism as the preferred means, indeed the only means, to provide social cohesion, to provide an enemy image for the society to keep it together [...] you have to have an enemy image in order to have a society…is a very dangerous thing, because it means the entire social order, the political parties, intellectual life, politics in general, are all based on a monstrous myth…" Historian Webster Tarpley

As G.. W. Bush said, "You can never win a war on terror." This sort of protracted warfare keeps the public afraid and the elite bankers richer. Elite terrorism provides social cohesion, and the Americans have tolerated the war for a surprisingly long time. Despite the popular desire for a troop pull-out, the U.S. government continues to terrorize it’s citizens to instill social order. Since 9/11, military spending in the U.S. has increased by 100 billion/year and much of the Bill of Rights has been subverted -- giving the government unprecedented powers. Americans should be outraged.

Is the Iraq war going badly? By sustaining it, the defence contractors get continual heightened profits, the Federal Reserve gets interest on 9 $trillion in US debt. Dick Cheney gets his Haliburtan profits, Bush’s family gets secured oil rights. Where is their incentive to stop the war? From the standpoint of the money barons, the Iraq war is a great success.

The philosopher Carl Schmitt claimed that the "friend-enemy" distinction is not only formative but constitutes the crux of national political existence – that an Enemy Image is a common tool used by oligarchical societies to control the people. Social order is based on the monsterous myth and those poor troops are losing their lives simply to make an elite few more rich and powerful. If you think that this statement is ludicrous, then ask yourself, "Why did American declare war on Iraq?"
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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From the Sinking of the Lusitania, the Tonkin Destroyers, etc., we know that the American government brought itself into most of it’s modern wars -- if not all of them.

What does the reference to the Lusitania mean, rec?
The Tonkin incident was fabricated, right?
But are you saying the sinking of the Lusitania is somehow a parallel situation?

The Rockerfellers also made a fortune in Vietnam by setting up arms manufacturing plants in Russia (to fight the Americans in Vietnam).

Do you have a source?
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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What does the reference to the Lusitania mean, rec?
The Tonkin incident was fabricated, right?
But are you saying the sinking of the Lusitania is somehow a parallel situation?



Do you have a source?

Absolutely. That was the point of my post. I believe that most, if not all, the major wars that the U.S. declared were implicitely provoked by the government in order to appease the Federal Reserve constituents.

Regarding the Lusitania:

This is a 1915 conversation between Col. Edward House, Wilson's top war advisor and international banker, and Edward House, Britain's Foreign Secretary:

Grey: "What will Americans do if Germans sink an ocean liner with American passengers on board?"
House: "I believe that a flame of indignation would sweep the US and that by itself would be sufficent to carry us into war." - House

I don't usually use a bibiography for my posts, but I try quote as often as I can... maybe too often.

Regarding Tonkin:

Even the NSA itself has admitted that Tonkin was a hoax.

"The reality of this second attack has long been challenged, and the consensus view now is that no second attack ever occurred. Even Secretary of Defense McNamara, who presented the evidence in to Johnson in the first place, now admits this. In late 2005, the National Security Agency declassified documents which conclusively show that there was no second attack. What remains are lingering questions over whether the false reporting was due to confusion or subterfuge, and if so on whose part." Source.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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more enlightened thinking by my favorite American-bashing Canadian bigot rec. Americans bombed Pearl Harbor. Americans assassinated Arch Duke Ferdinand. Americans were responsible for the moronic treaties imposed against Germany by European powers post-WW2. Americans invaded Kuwait. Americans staged the terrorist attacks of September 11th. Americans put the Germans up to declaring war on Poland. Americans were impressing themselves and forcing themselves to serve in the British navy circa 1812. No reason to dispute any of that. We're evil after all.
 

faceking

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more enlightened thinking by my favorite American-bashing Canadian bigot rec. Americans bombed Pearl Harbor. Americans assassinated Arch Duke Ferdinand. Americans were responsible for the moronic treaties imposed against Germany by European powers post-WW2. Americans invaded Kuwait. Americans staged the terrorist attacks of September 11th. Americans put the Germans up to declaring war on Poland. Americans were impressing themselves and forcing themselves to serve in the British navy circa 1812. No reason to dispute any of that. We're evil after all.


WOW...


WOW!!!! Nice epic post.


BTW: the mainstream lefty media (read as : CBS, NBC, NPR, CNN, ABC) isn't keeping ya'll up to date on how fucking well the surge is going (an idea McCain pushed Bush on for months).
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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more enlightened thinking by my favorite American-bashing Canadian bigot rec. Americans bombed Pearl Harbor. Americans assassinated Arch Duke Ferdinand. Americans were responsible for the moronic treaties imposed against Germany by European powers post-WW2. Americans invaded Kuwait. Americans staged the terrorist attacks of September 11th. Americans put the Germans up to declaring war on Poland. Americans were impressing themselves and forcing themselves to serve in the British navy circa 1812. No reason to dispute any of that. We're evil after all.

Gee. You know me too well. It's scary.

I don't hate Americans. I dislike their political system and it's manipulation of Americans and it's foreign policy.

Although there is some evidence that the Roosevelt government ignored many warnings of the Pearl Harbor attack, I never claimed that Americans bombed it. I never claimed that Americans killed the Arch Duke. I never claimed that America invaded Kuwait. I never claimed that America staged the 9/11 attackes, although as with Pearl Harbor, many warnings were ignored. I can safely deny all of you nonsense accusations.

Dude, You are the one who calls my country names. I have never called the U.S. a derogatory name. Do not call me a bigot.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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And Americans idiotically wave their foam fingers and chant that we are number one... when there is practically no leading indicator in which we are in the top 10.

This bugs me too, but at the same time, many other countries in the world do the same thing and with less reason. There are still quite a few measurable areas where the USA is in fact #1 (positive and negative, before the idiots feel the need to point that out). But to argue for something subjective like the quality of the entire country overall being superior to all other countries is, in a word, dumb. Particularly when many of these people have never left the country.

(thought they're not especially dumber than those who constantly berate the US and have never once stepped foot off their own respective continents)
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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Hey. Bigoted racist hopelessly biased and prejudiced hypocritical fuckwit. Yeah, you.

Your words:

Originally Posted by rec3000 http://www.lpsg.org/images36/buttons/viewpost.gif
From the Sinking of the Lusitania, the Tonkin Destroyers, etc., we know that the American government brought itself into most of it’s modern wars -- if not all of them.


 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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Hey. Bigoted racist hopelessly biased and prejudiced hypocritical fuckwit. Yeah, you.

Your words:

Originally Posted by rec3000 http://www.lpsg.org/images36/buttons/viewpost.gif
From the Sinking of the Lusitania, the Tonkin Destroyers, etc., we know that the American government brought itself into most of it’s modern wars -- if not all of them.



Hey egomaniacal, creepy, arrogant asshole... Are you claiming that America was completely innocent in every war that it was involved in? Are you claiming that every reasonable precaution was taken by the American government to avoid war? Are you claiming that America has never started a war against an innocent country? Wake up you fuckwit.
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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Hey egomaniacal, creepy, arrogant asshole... Are you claiming that America was completely innocent in every war that it was involved in? Are you claiming that every reasonable precaution was taken by the American government to avoid war? Are you claiming that America has never started a war against an innocent country? Wake up you fuckwit.

Do you get this show in Canada? I'm curious what you grew up watching that poisoned your brain.

I'm perfectly willing to accept blame where blame is due. You're the moron who shifts the blame for every one of your own failings onto other people. Every precaution? What precaution was America supposed to take to stop Serbian terrorists? What did Canada do to stop the invasion of Kuwait? You will shift blame to us for absolutely everything in any way you can because you are a bigot, plain and simple. Are we blameless? No. But that doesn't change the raw and savage stupidity and open naked ugly bigotry that come out in your posts when you say something so patently absurd, and further when you try to back it up and justify or rationalize it. I'm awake. I'll stay awake and I'll stay vital. You meanwhile can wither and atrophy in your growing bitterness as you waste away swallowed up in the shadow cast by your own impotence and irrelevance, lashing out at those who point this out. Enjoy that.
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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Do you get this show in Canada? I'm curious what you grew up watching that poisoned your brain.

I'm perfectly willing to accept blame where blame is due. You're the moron who shifts the blame for every one of your own failings onto other people. Every precaution? What precaution was America supposed to take to stop Serbian terrorists? What did Canada do to stop the invasion of Kuwait? You will shift blame to us for absolutely everything in any way you can because you are a bigot, plain and simple. Are we blameless? No. But that doesn't change the raw and savage stupidity and open naked ugly bigotry that come out in your posts when you say something so patently absurd, and further when you try to back it up and justify or rationalize it. I'm awake. I'll stay awake and I'll stay vital. You meanwhile can wither and atrophy in your growing bitterness as you waste away swallowed up in the shadow cast by your own impotence and irrelevance, lashing out at those who point this out. Enjoy that.


You obviously didn't read the earlier post in which I defended the US government. :smile:

You can paint me to be a monster all you want with your emotive rhetoric. I don't agree with organized hatred and I have often spoken openly against it in the real world and on this site. I have gotten grief from the libertarians on this site about my advocation of anti-hate laws. For you to post that video shows how little you know me.

Even when I provide proof, quotations, and bibiographical information, I still get called a biased liar who posts absurdities. I do not "shift blame." I give observations or opinions and attempt to back them up with facts.

By the way, if you call me a "racist" again, I can't tell you how much you'll be sorry.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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IFrom the Sinking of the Lusitania, the Tonkin Destroyers, etc., we know that the American government brought itself into most of it’s modern wars -- if not all of them.

Absolutely. That was the point of my post. I believe that most, if not all, the major wars that the U.S. declared were implicitly provoked by the government in order to appease the Federal Reserve constituents.

Regarding the Lusitania:

This is a 1915 conversation between Col. Edward House, Wilson's top war advisor and international banker, and Edward Grey, Britain's Foreign Secretary:

Grey: "What will Americans do if Germans sink an ocean liner with American passengers on board?"
House: "I believe that a flame of indignation would sweep the US and that by itself would be sufficent to carry us into war." - House

I don't usually use a bibiography for my posts, but I try quote as often as I can... maybe too often.

I don't think this does the trick.
House was only suggesting an obvious likely outcome of a German attack on a passenger liner. That doesn't mean that the United States was conniving to see that such a sinking came to pass.

Regarding Tonkin:

Even the NSA itself has admitted that Tonkin was a hoax.

"The reality of this second attack has long been challenged, and the consensus view now is that no second attack ever occurred. Even Secretary of Defense McNamara, who presented the evidence in to Johnson in the first place, now admits this. In late 2005, the National Security Agency declassified documents which conclusively show that there was no second attack. What remains are lingering questions over whether the false reporting was due to confusion or subterfuge, and if so on whose part." Source.

I know Tonkin was a hoax. I perhaps did not put that clearly enough in my early post.

Rockerfellers also made a fortune in Vietnam by setting up arms manufacturing plants in Russia (to fight the Americans in Vietnam).

This is the one for which I particularly need to see a source, rec, my man.
 

D_Gunther Snotpole

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Hey. Bigoted racist hopelessly biased and prejudiced hypocritical fuckwit. Yeah, you.

God, you're getting hot under the collar in a lot of threads lately, dude.
Sometimes it's kind of superb. Not always.
Now, what you say above seems, carrying understatement to an extreme, a bit overwrought.
Fine.
But what is that word 'racist' doing in the list?
(And for that matter, why do you call rec 'hypocritical'?)
 

B_NineInchCock_160IQ

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because I think race is a social construct. If someone else can make up races like "Asian" or "Caucasain" or "Hispanic" then I can make up a race called "American." In the post I deleted I explained that it basically boils down to grouping people together and being biased against the group, not necessarily bombing churches or burning crosses.

I called him a hypocrite because he preaches tolerance but is clearly biased against Americans. Backing it up with a source doesn't make your assertions unbiased. He also gets rushes in to defend his own country when he perceives her as under attack in any way, then calls me names when I get upset when far more heinous things are said about the USA and its inhabitants.

My reaction to his reaction was a bit overboard, granted, but I stand by the original response and think rec would have been much better served if he had just issued an apology instead of trying to justify such an absurd and obviously bigoted statement as it's probable that the American government is responsible for every war it has ever been in. On par with Mel Gibson's drunk rant about how Jews are responsible for all wars. How could such a statement be taken seriously? Unless by "modern wars" he means the last six years. Personally I think of all US history as modern history. The country's not that old. A lot of historians would call the American Civil War the first "modern war", but that still happened prior to WW1 and WW2.

My personal philosophy is that there is enough blame to go around in war for BOTH sides, more often than not. Though if there were EVER a justified war, WW2 was it, and Americans got pulled into that one due to no fault of their own. Citing revisionist histories about Pearl Harbor is such a low blow and totally irrelevant anyway. Americans didn't make Hitler. Americans didn't rape Nanjing. But still... somehow... WE'RE the bad guys in WW2? and EVERY conflict we've been involved in? Don't accuse me of making strawmen. I'm not. Follow the statement rec made through to its ultimate logical conclusion and that's where it leads. My pointing this out is entirely justified.

Then rec's response, insinuating that I ever claimed or believe that the US is faultless, is ridiculous. Look at my posts in this thread.. I obviously don't support the invasion and occupation of Iraq. And when it came to my list of causes for American wars, any astute student of history should notice those wars that are absent: Vietnam, Korea, Nicaragua, Panama, Spanish/American War, Mexican/American War, every military action ever taken against American Indians, Cuba, etc.
 

D_Tintagel_Demondong

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because I think race is a social construct. If someone else can make up races like "Asian" or "Caucasain" or "Hispanic" then I can make up a race called "American." In the post I deleted I explained that it basically boils down to grouping people together and being biased against the group, not necessarily bombing churches or burning crosses.
[...]
Using your own logic, this would make you a far worse bigot then myself. You've said hateful things about Canadians.