The War On Christmas

[2322]

This is in the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration:

...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

note that Creator is capitalized.

Also, in the Signatory section of the U.S. Constitution:

"Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven".

Not trying to nitpick you Jason, but these references appear to be to God.

The dating certainly does however the date isn't part of the Declaration. Look at the date itself. That's September, not July.

Creator is whatever you wish it to be. It could be a deity but could just as easily be your mother and father. That's the beauty of it in a country where so many different ideas of Creator were jealously held. Look at the paragraph itself, "we hold these truths to be self-evident," not something revealed by God. Indeed, the Declaration couldn't go anywhere near God because that would have introduced a massive can of worms including a possible defense for George III who was, "By grace of God, anointed king." Appealing to God would not do because it would make the argument relative.

The founding fathers were a diverse bunch and the Declaration as adopted is not the Declaration as written. The phrase, "endowed by their Creator," was added when Congress met in a committee of the whole to hammer out the details.

 

[vince]

This is in the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration:

...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

note that Creator is capitalized.

Also, in the Signatory section of the U.S. Constitution:

"Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven".

Not trying to nitpick you Jason, but these references appear to be to God.

It's true that the founders were Christian and refer to God in the documents. However they assign no role to religion or any god in the governance of the nation.

The next sentence in the line you quote from your Declaration of Independence is important to note- " that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,

Not by the grace of God.

"In this country it is admitted that the power to govern resides in the people themselves; that they are the only rightful source of authority. For many centuries before the formation of our Government, before the promulgation of the Declaration of Independence, the people had but little voice in the affairs of nations. The source of authority was not in this world; kings were not crowned by their subjects, and the sceptre was not held by the consent of the governed. The king sat on his throne by the will of God, and for that reason was not accountable to the people for the exercise of his power. He commanded, and the people obeyed. He was lord of their bodies, and his partner, the priest, was lord of their souls. The government of earth was patterned after the kingdom on high. God was a supreme autocrat in heaven, whose will was law, and the king was a supreme autocrat on earth whose will was law. The God in heaven had inferior beings to do his will, and the king on earth had certain favorites and officers to do his. These officers were accountable to him, and he was responsible to God." -Robert Green Ingersollhttp://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/

 

[slurper_la]

Thing is, a fairly large % of Limaugh's and O'Reilly's listening base is Christian. That said, another large % of listeners are not religious.

On the flip side, left-side show hosts such as Bill Maher use every opportunity possible to ridicule religion and those that have one. Maher even wrote a book about it in his latest PR stint.

If being religious provides a certain segment with hope and a set of values, why are the libs so intent on squashing and ridiculing that belief? Didn't our founding fathers include God in the Declaration and the Constitution?

I am not religious, but don't understand the need to ridicule those that are.

If some are offended by a Merry Christmas greeting, those people should not get vacation on Dec. 25th. So as not to be a hypocrite.

I would bet 99.9% of their listening base are Christian.

And there's a difference between ridiculing religion and ridiculing people who want to force their religion down everyone's throat.

you seem to be missing a point here: this isn't about people being offended by hearing "Merry Christmas", it's about Christian fundamentalists insisting EVERYONE say "Merry Christmas". They are the ones who want to stamp out the phrase "Happy Holidays".

 

[B_starinvestor]

The dating certainly does however the date isn't part of the Declaration. Look at the date itself. That's September, not July.

The Constitution was Sept 1787. Decl was July 1776.

Creator is whatever you wish it to be. It could be a deity but could just as easily be your mother and father. That's the beauty of it in a country where so many different ideas of Creator were jealously held. Look at the paragraph itself, "we hold these truths to be self-evident," not something revealed by God. Indeed, the Declaration couldn't go anywhere near God because that would have introduced a massive can of worms including a possible defense for George III who was, "By grace of God, anointed king." Appealing to God would not do because it would make the argument relative.

The founding fathers were a diverse bunch and the Declaration as adopted is not the Declaration as written. The phrase, "endowed by their Creator," was added when Congress met in a committee of the whole to hammer out the details.

I agree that it is subject to interpretation. My point from the earlier post was simply that the inclusion of God isn't indisputable in either document.

Happy Holidays!

 

[houtx48]

go celebrate christmas, chanica, festivius or what ever is your thing and tell the rightwing nutzzzzz to buzzzzz off.

 

[Calboner]

There is mention of, "Nature's God," (not man's god; a distinction important in a time when humans were believed to be above nature) and another, "... by their Creator," in the Declaration of Independence, but no mention of the Judeo-Islamic-Christian god.

This is in the 2nd paragraph of the Declaration:

...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

note that Creator is capitalized.

Yes, and so are the words "Rights," "Life," "Liberty," and "Happiness." What is that supposed to prove?

There is no mention of any deity in the Constitution.

Also, in the Signatory section of the U.S. Constitution:

"Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven".

I think you've got him there, according to the strict letter of what he said, unless the signatory section is not counted as part of the Constitution. But given that there was no calendar besides the Christian one that could practicably have been used, it would be ludicrous to argue that this constitutes some sort of endorsement of Christianity.

 

[Cockmo]

Merry Christmas everyone!

That's all I have to say!

 

[Notaguru2]

I celebrate Christmas and everyone who comes into contact with me, knows it. I am PRO-Christmas and I say it with a smile. If that offends you, then how can you expect me to be tolerant of things that you believe in?

By saying I am straight, does that offend gays? Likely, not. By saying you are a Muslim, does that offend me? No. If you wish me happy Hanukkah, does that offend me? No.

Separation of Church and State is an abused doctrine by non-believing, intolerant people that wish to suppress Christianity. The acts, in and of themselves, violate free speech and violate the protections given to religions under the First Amendment.

You don't have to believe what I do, but what is wrong with Good Will?

Oh.. and... MERRY CHRISTMAS! =)

 

[B_Nick4444]

I had a Hindu immigrant wish me a Merry Christmas yesterday

gives one hope

 

[Calboner]

"Hey there, Mr. Hinduist,
Merry fucking Christmas!
Drink eggnog and eat some beef
And pass it to the missus!"

--Mr. Garrison

 

[B_Nick4444]

Fedex guy just delivered some ties from Brooks Brothers

we had NO problem exchanging Merry Christmas with each other

 

[Notaguru2]

Fedex guy just delivered some ties from Brooks Brothers

we had NO problem exchanging Merry Christmas with each other

Did you answer the door with a boner again? lol

 

[B_Nick4444]

Did you answer the door with a boner again? lol

:redface:

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Nick4444, what did we tell you about giving out those BIG presents of yours? :biggrin:

 

[deleted15807]

People still shop at Brooks Brothers?

 

[leoboy63]

Wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" is offensive because it is making the assumption that someone is a Christian. Christmas only pertains to the Christian faith and has absolutely no relavance to a non Christian. Contrary to popular belief "Merry Christmas" is not the same as "Happy Holidays." If someone feels it shouldn't be offensive, then they have a total lack of respect towards anyone that is not of their faith.

And, Christmas is the relatively new holiday on the calendar. Solstice and Hanukkah have been around for far longer. So many Christians have the attitude that their faith is the only faith that matters- it really gets old.

And to the non practicing Jew who puts up a Christmas tree? Shame on you!

 

[B_VinylBoy]

Anyone who would get offended by someone telling them "Merry Christmas" needs to take it down a notch. Why do some religious people assume everything that doesn't align with their chosen faith to be an attack on their beliefs? How paranoid do YOU have to be to think everyone is against your religion? It's gotten to the point where I don't even want to say Happy Holidays anymore because now, the religious people who expect to hear "Christmas" or "Chanukah" or "Kwanzaa" or whatever get pissed off. As if I'm supposed to be able to look at every individual, guess which religion they belong to and adjust my holiday greeting to every person's needs?

"Merry Christmas", "Happy Chanukah" and "Happy Kwanzaa" are nothing more than simple greetings of good cheer during the holidays. And so what if you're not Christian, Jewish or whatever... In most instances, the person saying it is trying to be NICE!!! If you can't accept that, then stay locked up in your home throughout the holidays.

It's also the reason why I say "Christmahanukwanzakah" now. I'm sick of trying to be neighborly only to piss someone off because they're too caught up in their religious beliefs to accept a simple act of kindness.

 

[TomSchmo]

I wish everyone a Happy Festivus :biggrin:

 

[Calboner]

I wish everyone a Happy Festivus :biggrin:

Well, hasn't this been the thread for the Airing of Grievances?

 

[Redsquall]

I'm all for being inclusive, but I think everyone should be allowed to say Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, or whatever. Who really cares? If something as stupid as all of this really offends you, I think you need to take a serious look at your life.