The witch-hunt against hillary

Trott.lint

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I'm not presuming to tell anybody anything, I'm stating my opinion as I see it. And if that's something you don't much like, then I guess that's your problem as many non-Americans I've met has thoughts/opinions on the U.S - many much less complimentary and probably a lot more inaccurate than mine. But it doesn't stop people from having them. That's what happens when you're the world superpower - with great influence comes people taking an interest in what's going down in your country, and having an opinion, whether it tallies with yours or not.

If you were to put a bar on all people posting things that you don't see as reflective of your reality, there wouldn't be much to debate and argue about.

Fortunately for all concerned, you don't have that power.
 

phonehome

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What I am asking is "as you see it" what have you seen that informs your opinion ?

You clearly think what you think and believe what you believe and that is all well and good but what lead you to think that and believe that?

I could opine about things in your country if I knew which one it was but if they did not square with your and most people in your countries version of reality you might want to know why I think what I do, beyond it being "just because" .
 

rbkwp

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always think of the illicit bj
thats what the name represents

cant tell me she just forgave and forgot
possibly did the forgiving for the love of the mighty USA, i think not

mind you in Barack Clintons favour, i dont recall him boasting
'we have the greatest military in the world'

btw
also think of emails .. like Clinton + emails
not a very bright light down under here ..
 

Trott.lint

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What I am asking is "as you see it" what have you seen that informs your opinion ?

You clearly think what you think and believe what you believe and that is all well and good but what lead you to think that and believe that?

I could opine about things in your country if I knew which one it was but if they did not square with your and most people in your countries version of reality you might want to know why I think what I do, beyond it being "just because" .

This is what informs my opinions: conversations with American friends and business colleagues of my father, who are Hispanic. My cousin's American husband, born to Mexican parents. Personal interactions with Hispanics in Florida, Texas and Oklahoma. First-hand observations of American Hispanics who I believe are essentially as conservative as the average conservative White American, but who are repelled by the anti-immigrant tone of Republicans, and therefore fall back to the more immigrant-friendly Democrats. Catholicism & a more conservative moral attitude overall may be the reason for this. And then the stats & voting records. I refuse to believe that 44% of a demographic would vote for something they naturally didn't gravitate towards - Bush in 2004. Those are the things that shape my opinion. They lead me to very strongly believe that a conservative Hispanic candidate for the Republicans, particularly one who is moderate on immigration, would severely damage a white Democrat.
 

phonehome

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Trott

Thanks for the reply

First I would say that if you listen to Marco Rubio lately and for a pretty LONG time now he is in no way "moderate on immigration" unless you define that as "Ok MAYBE we will let you stay but the odds of you ever being a citizen are slim and most lekley none" which is what most people hear Hispanics included when the hear "legal status" which the majority of "the base" still call "amnesty"

I guess we can agree to disagree on what was the source of the majority of that 44% that GWB got.

You think it is this "they are Naturally conservative" and they "graviated" toward the "compassionette conservatrive" version that Carl Rove came up with and marketed and I am not saying that may not have been part of it but I was here and got to see it up close a personal every day for years and I think the majority of it was personal loyalty to him as the Governor they had voted for twice which in no small part lead them to vote for him that first time and yes loyalty to his brother in Florida the sitting Governor who they had also voted for twice and lead to voting for him in Florida that first time which was just barely enough to win the state if he actually won it at all and after voting for him once it was easier to vote for him that second time and in 04 he was still saying and doing all the right things on immigration.

John McCain's version of conservatism was not that far off from GWB's, he had represented Arizona for years that should have counted for something with Hispanics and he had with Ted Kennedy tried to do immigration reform. He was not talking about building big huge walls and all the rest but yet he got as I recall 33% less, more than 10% less only 4 years later.

Why didn't the "graviate" to him? He was not "conservative enough? it was all Sarah Palin's fault or was it that not enough Hispanics were personally loyal to him and his brother?

I will end by saying that GWB's version of "conservatism" compared to the version being peddled now by every Republican running Marco Rubio included they are far far different.

And not different in a way "good way" good as in more likely to attract American Hispanics

Rubio may do best, better than Trump or Cruz but in my up close and personal quite informed opinion that saying what he is saying now even if he does not at all suffer from "Hispanic but---" syndrome he would be lucky to get back to McCains numbers and that will not be nearly enough and if he tries to change what he is saying "for the general" maybe I seriously doubt it but maybe he would get GWB's 44% but if he did "the base" will "stay home" and he will still loose..

Most people that have looked at the numbers now say that even if a Republican lets say Rubio some how some way got GWB's 44% that with today's demographics and demonstrated voting patterns even even if "the base" voted as they did even in 04 that would not be enough to win this year.

Either Clinton or for that matter Sanders would have to run a very "bad campaign"
 
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Trott.lint

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Sanders? You have to be joking!! If the U.S. votes for Sanders, well... That would be like the UK voting for Corbyn. Highly unlikely. And he might be more principled and ethical than Hillary, but honestly she'd be a better president.

Your arguments are all sound and I'm not disputing your facts. Obviously, as a U.S. Citizen, you are far more qualified to provide evaluations on the U.S. than I am. But I stand firm in my opinion that any Democrat candidate would be severely tested and possibly beaten by a Rubio candidacy. And that that would probably be down to the crucial Hispanic vote.

I don't think we'll ever find out though. If Cruz or Trump win, they'll be smashed by Hillary. I refuse to entertain the idea that Democrats are stupid enough to put Sanders up ahead of Hillary as their candidate.
 

tripod

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Sanders? You have to be joking!! If the U.S. votes for Sanders, well... That would be like the UK voting for Corbyn. Highly unlikely. And he might be more principled and ethical than Hillary, but honestly she'd be a better president. I don't think we'll ever find out though. If Cruz or Trump win, they'll be smashed by Hillary. I refuse to entertain the idea that Democrats are stupid enough to put Sanders up ahead of Hillary as their candidate.

This is backwards reasoning. The stronger candidate is less principled and less ethical? Do you have a moral backbone or do you hedge your morality and ethics based on what would benefit you the most? That's not a system of morality or a system of ethics... it's a system of pragmatism and self interest.

Sanders has some serious polls that show him as the stronger candidate against Trump or any other Republican... these are good polls and should not be ignored.

Sanders beats Trump by 13 points

Sanders beats Trump and Bush by landslide

Sanders will bring a unique but winning coalition of: Republicans, Independents, young people & progressives... that coalition will easily "trump" Hillary's coalition of: black voters, old liberal women & men and hardcore partisan democrats. Hillary is TOXIC to independents and Republican voters... progressives want nothing to do with her. Her coalition of blacks, baby boomer liberals and hardcore Democrat partisans will NOT be enough to win. Not only that, but if Hillary wins the nomination but gets beat in the general election... democrats will lose congressional seats in 2016 and lose again in 2020... those congressional and statewide electoral losses will give Republicans a majority in congress which will present itself with veto-prrof majorities that will last long into 2035. This will DESTROY the Democratic party.
 

Trott.lint

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^ Interesting viewpoint. I'm not a fan of Obama but God help you if you're faced with a choice between Sanders and Cruz/Trump/any other Republican nutcase aside from Rubio, Bush or Christie. Sanders was originally propped up as the anti-Hillary who couldn't possibly win, thus giving Hillary a clear run at the nomination. But so many are disillusioned with her that that move may backfire. In other words, the main reason Sanders is excelling is not because people want him to win, but because they want Hillary to lose. Not a good scenario, folks, however you spin it. The best option is Hillary versus Rubio - let the 'best of a bad bunch' slug it out.
 

temptotalk

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Evidently not.

You think both parties aren't as bad as each other?

Do you mean republicans and democrats? Cause if so...no. And especially not in this election. Don't get me wrong, it's still the lesser of two evils but when it comes to comparing the two...republicans make democrats look like a baseball field full of angels. It doesn't matter which republican you pick they all would possibly end up in jail if they were scrutinized half as much as democrats (in general). And when it comes to hillary clinton...yeah even a third of the criticism she got/gets would completely dismantle the political careers of all republican hopefuls.
 

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Do you mean republicans and democrats? Cause if so...no. And especially not in this election. Don't get me wrong, it's still the lesser of two evils but when it comes to comparing the two...republicans make democrats look like a baseball field full of angels. It doesn't matter which republican you pick they all would possibly end up in jail if they were scrutinized half as much as democrats (in general). And when it comes to hillary clinton...yeah even a third of the criticism she got/gets would completely dismantle the political careers of all republican hopefuls.

To an outsider, Tempted, the above is a partisan opinion without facts to back it up. Quotes 101 'I learned a long time ago that no one is innocent.'
 

temptotalk

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To an outsider, Tempted, the above is a partisan opinion without facts to back it up. Quotes 101 'I learned a long time ago that no one is innocent.'

Ya know. I've come to enjoy your posts. I highly doubt i would have ever been able to understand certain kinds of people if it weren't for you. Same goes for a few others who apparently hate me to no end. This is the only place i've ever been to where i've been called ignorant, a racist, and even threatened.

Oh and it's temptotalk not tempted but thanks for modifying the name. Would that be anything like changing the name of aca to obamacare? Or maybe reporting an anti-police brutality rally as an anti-police rally?

Funny isn't it? I ask you guys a question and then say...if so and all of a sudden i need facts to back it up even though you never asked for any. Instead you accuse me of not having facts to back up something that was meant as a general opinion until you replied. And you guys talk about spin ha!

Oh man i love it. How could you not? I say...both parties are evil but republicans are so evil (metaphorically of course) that they make democrats look like angels annnnnnnnnnnnnddddddddd it's a partisan opinion? lulz Need i remind you personally that a republican talked about murdering innocent civilians, putting muslims in camps and....well you know the rest.

Meanwhile bernie sanders got caught up in a useless email issue and hillary clinton is catching flak for donations. So Drifterwood which would you say is the lesser evil? Or do i have to present more proof in the form of links that you'll refuse to look at because it doesn't come from the guardian?

Or maybe we should let....the outsiders.....decide if my facts are right. Cause once again. Democratic presidential hopefuls are having problems with money and emails while republican hopefuls are inciting violence against muslims, talking about murdering innocent people and well give it time they'll say an do worse.

Now do me a favor. Take your cute little no one is innocent comment and re-apply it to what i said. Or maybe i shouold teach you what the meaning of lesser of two evils mean. :D

Ya know what. I'll just go ahead and give you the proof of what i'm talking about anyway.

Why the republican party doesnt appeal to people...

All the facts you need are in there. The posts are at about 1218 so you might wanna start reading now. To you know...save some time.

Cherry-O :p
 

Drifterwood

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The charge is that you are corrupt. What is you defence?

I am less corrupt than them.

You use this argument all the time. I respect the pragmatism, but at some point a community has to live by a higher standard.
 

keenobserver

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The charge is that you are corrupt. What is you defence?

I am less corrupt than them.

You use this argument all the time. I respect the pragmatism, but at some point a community has to live by a higher standard.

Ideally yes, but reality is what it is - the truly pure get crushed. Bad guys win. Less corrupt may beat really corrupt - it is not ideal, but it may advance more noble goals.
 
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Drifterwood

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Ideally yes, but reality is what it is - the truly pure get crushed. Bad guys win. Less corrupt may beat really corrupt - it is not ideal, but it may advance more noble goals.

Bernie for Democratic candidate then?

I had worked out this is where T was coming from. He does however tend to exaggerate to hyperbole, so it's hard to know the reality. His mindset is self perpetuating IMO, probably downwards unfortunately.

BTW, there are plenty of nice places in the middle, you don't have to be No. 1 to have a good life.
 

Trott.lint

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Ya know. I've come to enjoy your posts. I highly doubt i would have ever been able to understand certain kinds of people if it weren't for you. Same goes for a few others who apparently hate me to no end. This is the only place i've ever been to where i've been called ignorant, a racist, and even threatened.

Oh and it's temptotalk not tempted but thanks for modifying the name. Would that be anything like changing the name of aca to obamacare? Or maybe reporting an anti-police brutality rally as an anti-police rally?

Funny isn't it? I ask you guys a question and then say...if so and all of a sudden i need facts to back it up even though you never asked for any. Instead you accuse me of not having facts to back up something that was meant as a general opinion until you replied. And you guys talk about spin ha!

Oh man i love it. How could you not? I say...both parties are evil but republicans are so evil (metaphorically of course) that they make democrats look like angels annnnnnnnnnnnnddddddddd it's a partisan opinion? lulz Need i remind you personally that a republican talked about murdering innocent civilians, putting muslims in camps and....well you know the rest.

Meanwhile bernie sanders got caught up in a useless email issue and hillary clinton is catching flak for donations. So Drifterwood which would you say is the lesser evil? Or do i have to present more proof in the form of links that you'll refuse to look at because it doesn't come from the guardian?

Or maybe we should let....the outsiders.....decide if my facts are right. Cause once again. Democratic presidential hopefuls are having problems with money and emails while republican hopefuls are inciting violence against muslims, talking about murdering innocent people and well give it time they'll say an do worse.

Now do me a favor. Take your cute little no one is innocent comment and re-apply it to what i said. Or maybe i shouold teach you what the meaning of lesser of two evils mean. :D

Ya know what. I'll just go ahead and give you the proof of what i'm talking about anyway.

Why the republican party doesnt appeal to people...

All the facts you need are in there. The posts are at about 1218 so you might wanna start reading now. To you know...save some time.

Cherry-O :p

I don't neccessarily agree with your politics, oh tempted one, but you are funny as fuck! And for that, I thank you!
 
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keenobserver

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Bernie for Democratic candidate then?

I had worked out this is where T was coming from. He does however tend to exaggerate to hyperbole, so it's hard to know the reality. His mindset is self perpetuating IMO, probably downwards unfortunately.

BTW, there are plenty of nice places in the middle, you don't have to be No. 1 to have a good life.

Bernie, as much as I like him, simply cannot win a general election in the US.