Thesis On Male And Female "sexual Cues"

Shofixti

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Hello LPSG


I would be happy to discuss this content with anyone who is interested. I've watched this video many times and let the suggestions and indications percolate for a while.

This content could be of use for men seeking to understand:
  1. The differences between male and female sexual arousal
  2. Why large penises may be of heightened interest to heterosexual men
  3. The relevance of Big Data analyses to understanding human nature
  4. The patterns of male and female fantasy and masturbatory activity
  5. One line of reasoning why transsexual portrayals are fascinating to men
Any perhaps many more.

Best,
Sho
 

Shofixti

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This might be a tough topic to crack - but what I really like about their methodology is that they deal with real world behaviours and choices people make rather than more careful, cautious and curated behaviours of people who know they're being studied. The story of sexuality they capture then is quite free-range, private and honest.
  • Their main metaphor is compare sexual tastes to flavours. Where the tongue has a limited set of cues (sweet, salty etc.) that combine for form every flavour profile available. To Ogi and Sai, sexual tastes are similar combinations of a small set of cues. It just happens that the cues they discuss from their research are very different between the genders.
 

Shofixti

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One of the key befuddlements this video seemed to answer for me is:
"How can heterosexual men climax while watching a large penis in most heterosexual porn?"
  • Sai and Ogi's answer: Because the only way a beta-male primate can breed is by watching the alpha-male's phallus to assess social and sexual cues, and by becoming so aroused when he sees the alpha is aroused that he would risk the violent repercussions of mating with a female in the alpha's harem.
    This pattern of surveillance, arousal and then sperm competition is a potent evolutionary package that tells a story of heterosexual male sexuality that is always attentive to the penises and sexual patterns of other men, as only the horniest of beta males would go and mate, therefore having horny offspring too
And that actually seemed a pretty comprehensive and compelling story.
 
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deleted1547822

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Thanks for the link. Once I saw how they got their data, I was hooked. I bought their book on Amazon. Absolutely fascinating.
 
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spaj8987

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First off, when it comes to people's preferences on trans porn, twilight and so on. No, there's no reason why they should feel ashamed for liking that content/people. They shouldn't face the kinds of backlashes they might face for it because we human beings should be more accepting.

With that said, oh boy are there so many issues with this. The first and pun intended the largest. That men in general search for dicks. As a straight man on this site. I've heard that one before. And heres the thing. Data can be misguided. Leading to it being incorrect. They say the search terms were for dicks more than anything else and i have to ask. Could that be for other reasons? If so shouldn't we be searching for more answers there before we then build theories around it?

Trends. They exist. The lgbtq community is still considered less than heterosexuals. There are also all kinds of different porn sites. One that comes to mind specifically because of this thread is pornhub. And the reason why it comes to mind is the fact that they've just released statistics on people's porn habits all over the world within their site. Now, if dicks were as searched for as the video said then we should of course find correlation between what was said and pornhub's totals.

Problem is. We don't.

The 2019 Year in Review – Pornhub Insights

The number one most searched for term is...amateur. Followed by alien, pov, belle delphine, cosplay, mature, bisexual, apex legends, asmr and then femdom. Where's the beef? This was only recorded searches for one year mind you but that's the entire top list. Where's the dicks? Where's the penis? Where's the cock?

Oh. I'm sorry. My mistake those weren't the top searches. These were.

Japanese, hentai, lesbian, milf, korean, asian, step mom, massage, anal, ebony, big ass, teen, threesome, anime, public, creampie, big tits, chinese, gangbang, latina, cartoon, indian and finally...FINALLY bbc.

And here's something the video didn't even try to address. Pornstars. People searched pornstars specifically.

The top three for women were lana rhoades, mia khalifa and riley reid. While for male pornstars the top three were jordi el nino polla, alex adams and owen gray.

Again. This is only one site but you'd think based on the what the video said that there would be some correlation there. There isn't.

Now. The most viewed categories. Japanese, lesbian, amateur, hentai, milf, ebony, anal, mature, threesome, big tits, popular with women, and finally...FINALLY big dick.

And just because. Lets look at the most searched for terms on pornhub gay. Korean, japanese, black, daddy, straight, asian, twink, massage, hentai, cartoon, gangbang, femboy and again...finally...FINALLY...bbc.

It's not until we get to the most viewed gay categories do we find a difference in where dicks of any kind are placed. Starting first as the most viewed category of....straight guys. Then working our way backwards it's daddy, bareback, black and then big dick.

When we get to age groups search terms spelling out dicks only account for age groups 55-64.

So here's what i'm wondering. How can the data be so skewed away from what was said in the video? Could it be that their methods were a little off? A bit skewed? Keep in mind i'm only paying attention to the video and not their book.

Could it be that the majority of people don't in fact focus solely on dicks when they're searching for porn? And leveling a good portion of one's argument on that isn't a good idea? I know, as a straight male, i've never in my life searched for dicks of any kind for the express purpose of seeing said dicks. I have though in the past typed in big dicks for the express purpose of seeing women's reactions to them because i was under the impression at the time that they received more pleasure from big or bigger dicks.

And once realizing that very little of porn is real stopped doing so entirely. And as the totals from pornhub would suggest started searching for more realistic porn in the form of amatuer stuff.

Now i could be wrong here but shouldn't something that was so important to their overall point be very easily correlated with other porn sites?

Also, trends. Isn't it a fact that the lgbtq community in general is very very very slowly becoming more and more acceptable by businesses and social groups? Could that be influencing search terms? As in the more acceptable it is to be of the lgbtq community the more relaxed people in the lgbtq community will feel with searching porn sites? While being a part of the lgbtq community is still not considered to be equal to being a part of the heterosexual community. Leading to more members of the lgbtq community to turn to porn rather than real life experiences out of the still present fear of being isolated? Meaning more searches on sites for lgbtq community related content?

When they divided up the data from these 40 different sites. Were there any attention paid to which way each site leans? If you were to take a survey of lpsg regarding how acceptable the lgbtq community is in general would the outcome be exchangeable with sites who have primarily heterosexual posters?

Even on the basis of the terms used. Isn't there a difference between a sexual cue and sexual inspiration? Isn't a cue just a marker for a reaction? And not an explanation of a persons entire sexual makeup?

Does a guy typing in big dick into a porn site automatically mean he isn't in fact straight? Or could it be that he did so for other reasons that still align with him in fact being straight?

Yeah.
 

Shofixti

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First off, when it comes to people's preferences on trans porn, twilight and so on. No, there's no reason why they should feel ashamed for liking that content/people. They shouldn't face the kinds of backlashes they might face for it because we human beings should be more accepting.

Totally with you on this. As a gay man I enjoy some transmen in porn - my body responds to them as men. And their genitals become this fuzzy site of possibility.

With that said, oh boy are there so many issues with this. The first and pun intended the largest. That men in general search for dicks. As a straight man on this site. I've heard that one before. And heres the thing. Data can be misguided. Leading to it being incorrect. They say the search terms were for dicks more than anything else and i have to ask. Could that be for other reasons? If so shouldn't we be searching for more answers there before we then build theories around it?

I agree that evolutionary stories can be 'just so' stories, but we can actually see present day primate troupes having this form of organisation.

I haven't looked too deep into sperm competition cues - but it seems compelling.

I mean, I can imagine (and have actually done so) asking straight men how they view their relationship to pornstar cocks, and ... I'm not sure their own account can or does tell the whole story.

Now, if dicks were as searched for as the video said then we should of course find correlation between what was said and pornhub's totals.

Problem is. We don't.

The 2019 Year in Review – Pornhub Insights

The number one most searched for term is...amateur. Followed by alien, pov, belle delphine, cosplay, mature, bisexual, apex legends, asmr and then femdom. Where's the beef? This was only recorded searches for one year mind you but that's the entire top list. Where's the dicks? Where's the penis? Where's the cock?

Yes. A deeper dive into their method may find an answer. It's possible an over-burdened theory meant they only sampled body part terms...?

So here's what i'm wondering. How can the data be so skewed away from what was said in the video? Could it be that their methods were a little off? A bit skewed? Keep in mind i'm only paying attention to the video and not their book.

There is a tight specificity to your critique, and this is good. But also, possible a bit one note?

Could it be that the majority of people don't in fact focus solely on dicks when they're searching for porn? And leveling a good portion of one's argument on that isn't a good idea? I know, as a straight male, i've never in my life searched for dicks of any kind for the express purpose of seeing said dicks. I have though in the past typed in big dicks for the express purpose of seeing women's reactions to them because i was under the impression at the time that they received more pleasure from big or bigger dicks.

I am actually quite curious about what happens if straight men find they are watching "...milf, ebony, anal, mature, threesome..." porn and the actor has a small penis, do they continue watching or do they revise the search parameters? How much dissatisfaction is associated with just happening on to porn that meets his search term but has <6" actors in it?
 
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Shofixti

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As a gay man part of this thesis that I find fascinating is that I really am more aroused by a hot working class man than I am by a wealthy, popular, affluent man who is less attractive, and I find simple manners more endearing than the arrogance of privilege.

And as much as the "feminine" cues can sometimes be arousing (perhaps caught up in the straight male fetishisation), at the end of the day surplus male desire directed at me is annoying. I only need enough desire directed at me to open up a sexual avenue for my release, accruing it in greater amounts of desire from other men seems like a waste of time.

I suppose LPSG itself is the exception to this rule - but that is because likes and comments are so mediated that they sit far closer to 'social media' pleasures, than relational or sexual pleasures.
 
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@spaj8987 FYI - the study was done in 2010. They used search engine data to see what people were searching for. Panty-less granny cheerleaders, hobo sex, etc... (obviously those weren’t the actual searches...). They also got search data from Pornhub directly. Keep in mind they’re trying to compress a 400 page book into a 20 minute talk.

I haven’t looked at the other thread yet, so if we’re still not talking... sorry
 

halcyondays

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It's an old story. Tristan and Isolde. Arthur and Guinevere. Antony and Cleopatra. Helen and Paris. The city of love is named after the guy. Every Harlequin bodice ripper ever written. Everything Danielle Steele. You know it's good if the cover is hot pink. ;)

Women want a hero not a zero.
 
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spaj8987

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Totally with you on this. As a gay man I enjoy some transmen in porn - my body responds to them as men. And their genitals become this fuzzy site of possibility.



I agree that evolutionary stories can be 'just so' stories, but we can actually see present day primate troupes having this form of organisation.

I haven't looked too deep into sperm competition cues - but it seems compelling.

I mean, I can imagine (and have actually done so) asking straight men how they view their relationship to pornstar cocks, and ... I'm not sure their own account can or does tell the whole story.



Yes. A deeper dive into their method may find an answer. It's possible an over-burdened theory meant they only sampled body part terms...?



There is a tight specificity to your critique, and this is good. But also, possible a bit one note?



I am actually quite curious about what happens if straight men find they are watching "...milf, ebony, anal, mature, threesome..." porn and the actor has a small penis, do they continue watching or do they revise the search parameters? How much dissatisfaction is associated with just happening on to porn that meets his search term but has <6" actors in it?

(Yes. A deeper dive into their method may find an answer. It's possible an over-burdened theory meant they only sampled body part terms...?)

I can agree with that. A deeper dive is necessary. Though i disagree that a connection between this and primates can be made. Given the complicated nature of porn in general along with the reasons why many people watch it.

(There is a tight specificity to your critique, and this is good. But also, possible a bit one note?)

I disagree that it's one note. In that paragraph maybe but the whole comment is the critique. Not just porn search terms but the branching out of porn search terms and why people use them. And there's also What i said about the kinds of people using porn (heterosexual vs homosexual and bisexual regarding social standards).

(I am actually quite curious about what happens if straight men find they are watching "...milf, ebony, anal, mature, threesome..." porn and the actor has a small penis, do they continue watching or do they revise the search parameters? How much dissatisfaction is associated with just happening on to porn that meets his search term but has <6" actors in it?)

Kind of brain tired from a few other brain busters today regarding people i know in person but i would also be curious about this.
 
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Shofixti

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I was following until I got to the part from Sai and Ogi about alpha and beta males. I thought they debunked the whole concept of alpha and beta males?

Good insights!
I think their use of these words is specific to other primate species and not meant to characterise humans? Where chimpanzees and gorillas show this trait, but bonobos invert it (female alphas)
  • Research in 2019 points to a slightly new explanation of testosterone in humans: namely, that testosterone sensitses men to social hierarchies and social status, and acts as a motivating force. We all have a general, folklore understanding that testosterone and violence seem to be correlated (such as the mythology of men's prisons), but the novel part of this research comes from data that shows a new pattern: when social status is determined by pro-social activity, men are more altruistic than women (I think this was likely an experimental game they were playing). So that's the hopeful message - that in the right contexts, men can create dominance hierarchies where altruism is the 'alpha' trait and not aggression.

  • The only other place I see alpha and beta males being talked about is in the Red Pill community, and usually these are to categorise men by their breeding strategy: do they find a mate through the exchange of resources (money, house), or do they find a mate by signalling social dominance and appealing to the suggested female cues Ogi and Sai put forth. Namely: dangerous desire, intense desire, hard exterior/warm interior, youthful energy and social popularity (all of which can be done without transferring an economic benefit to the woman). I think it is more digestible to use Alpha/Beta as a descriptor of mating strategy rather than of actually identity, aptitude or genetics (namely due to Red Pillers teaching each other these alpha-style social dynamics).

  • So, while I don't think Ogi and Sai meant to characterise men with these terms - I think their analysis of female erotic literature does leave some wiggle room for asking questions like "Why aren't accountants sexualised by women, but secretaries are sexualised by men?", or "Do accountants signify some kind of beta archetype while surgeons and cowboys and pilots signify some kind of alpha archetype?"
 
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Good insights!
I think their use of these words is specific to other primate species and not meant to characterise humans? Where chimpanzees and gorillas show this trait, but bonobos invert it (female alphas)
  • Research in 2019 points to a slightly new explanation of testosterone in humans: namely, that testosterone sensitses men to social hierarchies and social status, and acts as a motivating force. We all have a general, folklore understanding that testosterone and violence seem to be correlated (such as the mythology of men's prisons), but the novel part of this research comes from data that shows a new pattern: when social status is determined by pro-social activity, men are more altruistic than women (I think this was likely an experimental game they were playing). So that's the hopeful message - that in the right contexts, men can create dominance hierarchies where altruism is the 'alpha' trait and not aggression.

  • The only other place I see alpha and beta males being talked about is in the Red Pill community, and usually these are to categorise men by their breeding strategy: do they find a mate through the exchange of resources (money, house), or do they find a mate by signalling social dominance and appealing to the suggested female cues Ogi and Sai put forth. Namely: dangerous desire, intense desire, hard exterior/warm interior, youthful energy and social popularity (all of which can be done without transferring an economic benefit to the woman). I think it is more digestible to use Alpha/Beta as a descriptor of mating strategy rather than of actually identity, aptitude or genetics (namely due to Red Pillers teaching each other these alpha-style social dynamics).

  • So, while I don't think Ogi and Sai meant to characterise men with these terms - I think their analysis of female erotic literature does leave some wiggle room for asking questions like "Why aren't accountants sexualised by women, but secretaries are sexualised by men?", or "Do accountants signify some kind of beta archetype while surgeons and cowboys and pilots signify some kind of alpha archetype?"
The statement about men being more altruistic vis à vis high testosterone for social status paints a rather discouraging picture though. It implies that men engaging in altruistic/beneficial behaviors are doing it out of selfishness and self gain, not the good of all. Which is kind of what I suspected down deep. Unless I'm missing something here....

I suppose that, until they come up with new terms for the alpha/beta dichotomy, that's probably the easiest for most people to cogitate and process. Would those two happen to be well versed in behavioral anthropology?
 

Shofixti

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The statement about men being more altruistic vis à vis high testosterone for social status paints a rather discouraging picture though. It implies that men engaging in altruistic/beneficial behaviors are doing it out of selfishness and self gain, not the good of all. Which is kind of what I suspected down deep. Unless I'm missing something here....

Another fascinating take. My views on this:
  1. It's better to be motivated than unmotivated. The cost of stagnation for a tribe or community could be greater over time than the costs of just-a-little-bit-more activity, striving and status-seeking (especially where high status involves he who fishes and hunts the most).
  2. Is it really coherent to think that any human can be motivated by 'the good of all?'. It's something that is highly relevant to many things - namely environmental behaviours and leisure travel. Humans are very reluctant to have their consumer pleasures impinged on even as the Earth burns and churns, but, socially engineering environmentalism into social status could be one mechanism for change.
  3. Do you feel like you independently chose to join LPSG, a website oriented to large pensises - or did you find yourself motivated to by curiosity, drive, arousal, and an array of unconscious motivations that likely have a more evolutionary story behind them? :laughing:
I suppose that, until they come up with new terms for the alpha/beta dichotomy, that's probably the easiest for most people to cogitate and process. Would those two happen to be well versed in behavioral anthropology?
  • I guess the distinction is, if you're looking at a pool of men, one might be able to rate them on visually distinguishable social status, and then after observing them for a while behaviourally distinguishable social status, which I assume is an assessment most women are able to make, and which may be highly gradated. Perhaps it would take a lot longer to be able to make an assessment about economically distinguishable social status - and that's why faster judgements are shallower?
 
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ItsAll4Kim

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I was following until I got to the part from Sai and Ogi about alpha and beta males. I thought they debunked the whole concept of alpha and beta males?
Yeah, I will watch this at some later time, but as soon as I read posts saying they mentioned alpha/beta male, I pretty much lost interest.
 

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Yeah, I will watch this at some later time, but as soon as I read posts saying they mentioned alpha/beta male, I pretty much lost interest.

;) Yeah - I'm pretty sure the terms were used to describe great ape behaviour in primate troupes rather than to categorise men.
 
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;) Yeah - I'm pretty sure the terms were used to describe great ape behaviour in primate troupes rather than to categorise men.

If they weren't making a connection with human behavior, then why mention alpa or beta regarding apes?

In the second paragraph,:
"This pattern of surveillance, arousal and then sperm competition is a potent evolutionary package that tells a story of heterosexual male sexuality that is always attentive to the penises and sexual patterns of other men, as only the horniest of beta males would go and mate, therefore having horny offspring too"

...sure sounds as if they're referring to human, not ape, behavior.

And if they are referring to alpha/beta apes, the penis size of the apes is pretty much never the deciding factor in determining status. Physical strength is just about always the determinant. They're making a leap from alpha apes, which are stronger, to alpha humans, claiming penis size determines alpha status. Says who?
 

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I was following until I got to the part from Sai and Ogi about alpha and beta males. I thought they debunked the whole concept of alpha and beta males?

What they're saying is that the female cues determine which individual males are alphas and which are betas. Males themselves do not determine it but can attempt to affect it.

Some males are able to attract more females by meeting those cues. An extreme example is to become a rock star, athletic star or movie star and watch the groupies pile on. This satisfies the hero, troubled soul and popularity cues women desire. And if he's youthful and good looking the irresistible cue is satisfied as well--though as my mother/sisters/female friends said for years there's no such thing as an ugly millionaire. :cool:

Like most warm blooded vertebrate species what's happening in ours is female mate selection. Women choose men not the other way round.
 

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If they weren't making a connection with human behavior, then why mention alpa or beta regarding apes?

In the second paragraph,:
"This pattern of surveillance, arousal and then sperm competition is a potent evolutionary package that tells a story of heterosexual male sexuality that is always attentive to the penises and sexual patterns of other men, as only the horniest of beta males would go and mate, therefore having horny offspring too"

...sure sounds as if they're referring to human, not ape, behavior.
  • I guess my question for you is - do you perceive men as not existing within any dominance hierarchies of note? Because that would seem to resist a reading of LPSG as a place oriented to the status of the large phallus. I don't see how LPSG could even exist if there wasn't some signification of status in having-a-bigger-dong-than-the-next-guy
Yes, these are my words summarising part of their work from memory. In this summary I sort of mash up the terms as clearly, in today's society men are not actively watching each other's penises in real time (they are in practices such as 'dogging'). Perhaps I should have written something more like:

"as chimpanzees and humans share a common ancestor, and chimpanzee males have to navigate the potential for violence within their troupe, chimpanzee males must experience sexual motivation greater than the inhibition that comes from the threat of violence, or else they would never mate. This conflict will never transfer full formed into the modern man, but it is possible that elements of sperm competition arousal and phallus surveillance are carried over in part into conventional heterosexual expression"

However, can you really discount that through the abundance of pornography and through sites like LPSG, that men are not constantly surveilling the activity of other penises? Because they really seem to be doing just this, even if the penis itself is not the central point of their desire, it is a mating cue (as argued by Sai and Ogi).