Things That Confuse Me As A Gay Man.

Northerner2023

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So as I have said I am a gay man in my early 30s, and although I'm gay I have never been part of the gay scene or shall we say lived that lifestyle. I have worked with man gay men in relation to mental health and had my eyes opened to alot of things still many I can't get my head around. I have always found the behaviour of most gay men to be wreckless and risky which many are open about. The main one being their relationship with sex and their carefree approach to it in terms of safety. I have started to notice a vast increase in gay men pretty much advocating for bareback sex, even ones who are HIV positive most on ART and undetectable also many who are HIV and detectable but still engaging and many willing to engage (bug chasers), even when given the diagnosis they are still willing to engage in unsafe sex either it be undetectable or detectable. Why are so many gay men willing to engage in this? Most of it seems to be happening in gay saunas, dark rooms, or chemsex parties. Why has we not learnt anything that happened during the 80s. Of course not all gay men lead this lifestyle but the vast majority do. What are other peoples thoughts on this topic?
 

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Honestly, I think your post is littered with internalised homophobia. It's hard to draw any other conclusion when you suggest that dark rooms and chemsex parties are something the "vast majority" engage in. Your final statement was another strong indicator. Talking about "bug chasing" as if it's a common interest, and not mostly a niche online fantasy, was another strong indicator.

A significant minority of gay men never engage in anal sex, let alone seeking it out unprotected and high as a kite in a dark room.
 

chrisrobin

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So as I have said I am a gay man in my early 30s, and although I'm gay I have never been part of the gay scene or shall we say lived that lifestyle. I have worked with man gay men in relation to mental health and had my eyes opened to alot of things still many I can't get my head around. I have always found the behaviour of most gay men to be wreckless and risky which many are open about. The main one being their relationship with sex and their carefree approach to it in terms of safety. I have started to notice a vast increase in gay men pretty much advocating for bareback sex, even ones who are HIV positive most on ART and undetectable also many who are HIV and detectable but still engaging and many willing to engage (bug chasers), even when given the diagnosis they are still willing to engage in unsafe sex either it be undetectable or detectable. Why are so many gay men willing to engage in this? Most of it seems to be happening in gay saunas, dark rooms, or chemsex parties. Why has we not learnt anything that happened during the 80s. Of course not all gay men lead this lifestyle but the vast majority do. What are other peoples thoughts on this topic?
Your experiences are wholly based on your time as a health worker.
The majority of gay men do not live the sort of life you describe, a great many live under the radar.
As in so many other "random" facts it seems if a minority make a big noise then what they say is applied to the others.
 

Northerner2023

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Honestly, I think your post is littered with internalised homophobia. It's hard to draw any other conclusion when you suggest that dark rooms and chemsex parties are something the "vast majority" engage in. Your final statement was another strong indicator. Talking about "bug chasing" as if it's a common interest, and not mostly a niche online fantasy, was another strong indicator.

A significant minority of gay men never engage in anal sex, let alone seeking it out unprotected and high as a kite in a dark room.
NO internalised homophobia I just don't like many aspects of the community and how gay men behave. Yes many gay men not engaging is sex is correct but it's a small minority if this was the case the sheer amout of gay men would not have died. But bare-backing is very much glamorised in our community, and this is one aspect that frustrates me, we seek to learn nothing as a community from our past history.
 

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I find the same thing. But, it depends on where a person lives to some extent. I found the inner city attitude to be very much like what you said, saunas, risky sex, Grindr and drugs. This seemed to be wide spread and I hardly met a gay man who was not into this type of thing and just accepted this as normal. I was constantly shocked by how widespread it is. I agree with you For example, I overheard a sauna worker say that they had over 4,000 men visit in one weekend during a festival. Young guys come into this lifestyle and think that is normal. Only 25% don't get involved in anal sex was the last stat I heard. Those on anti viral tablets seem to be the worst and they feel protected and thus few limits, very risky. Sure, its not all but its what dominated gay men I met.
 

englad

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NO internalised homophobia I just don't like many aspects of the community and how gay men behave. Yes many gay men not engaging is sex is correct but it's a small minority if this was the case the sheer amout of gay men would not have died. But bare-backing is very much glamorised in our community, and this is one aspect that frustrates me, we seek to learn nothing as a community from our past history.

The last time I read any statistics on how many gay men never engage in anal sex, it was around a third. I wouldn't call that a small minority.... I haven't specifically checked what the percentage of gay men visiting dark rooms or chemsex parties, but I would imagine that it would be a far lower percentage than that. And it is frankly ridiculous to describe "anal sex" as "sex" (thereby implying that oral, frotting or mutual masturbation aren't sex, which is ridiculous), when it's the third most common form of MM sex after oral and mutual masturbation. It's laughable when straight people only refer to one type of sex as "sex", when gay men do that, it's even more ridiculous.

I'll provide an analogy. My best friend was a social worker for many years in a poverty stricken urban area in Scotland. She mostly dealt with domestic violence, heroin addicts, and custody. Can you imagine what it would sound like if she extrapolated her professional experiences as a commonality of experience for straight white working class people in Scotland, and then posted a thread asking why the vast majority of straight working class people in Scotland take heroin and keep getting pregnant until the state lets them keep the result?
 
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Northerner2023

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I find the same thing. But, it depends on where a person lives to some extent. I found the inner city attitude to be very much like what you said, saunas, risky sex, Grindr and drugs. This seemed to be wide spread and I hardly met a gay man who was not into this type of thing and just accepted this as normal. I was constantly shocked by how widespread it is. I agree with you For example, I overheard a sauna worker say that they had over 4,000 men visit in one weekend during a festival. Young guys come into this lifestyle and think that is normal. Only 25% don't get involved in anal sex was the last stat I heard. Those on anti viral tablets seem to be the worst and they feel protected and thus few limits, very risky. Sure, its not all but its what dominated gay men I met.
I applaud you for also being honest I don't think as gay men we like to talk openly about this side of the community. I don't think its black and white many behave this way for a plethora of reason, Depression is very high in out committee alongside substance abuse also loneliness plays a massive part in it. I also think now with social media young gay men think this is the norm. With your comment on gay me who are on HIV/AIDS medication ART'S I couldn't agree more, I see so many gay men who are on medication and are undetectable (not being able to pass it on), go on to still practice unsafe sex which I find frankly still incomprehensible considering the fact the caught HIV from practising unsafe sex, not realising that as many gay men don't you can catch secondary HIV which would be immune to any treatment you are on and will kill you. It's like what more of a warning do you need. Its like me putting my hand in a fire, getting third degree burns then going and putting my hand back in the flame. In the UK, the most recent estimate of the lifetime cost of managing HIV range from £73,000 to £404,300 per person.
Partying, Club Drugs, and HIV: A Gay Man Speaks Out - YouTube (a must watch one of the words greatest AIDS activist He formed positively healthy, which was the only charity for HIV positive gay men)

We need to talk about how Grindr is affecting gay men’s mental health - Vox
Why is the LGBTQ+ community disproportionately affected by mental health problems and suicide? | News and Events | Greater Manchester Mental Health NHS FT (gmmh.nhs.uk)
The Epidemic of Gay Loneliness - The Huffington Post
Gay men, sex addiction and the lack of true connection in the gay community - YouTube
 

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So as I have said I am a gay man in my early 30s, and although I'm gay I have never been part of the gay scene or shall we say lived that lifestyle. I have worked with man gay men in relation to mental health and had my eyes opened to alot of things still many I can't get my head around. I have always found the behaviour of most gay men to be wreckless and risky which many are open about. The main one being their relationship with sex and their carefree approach to it in terms of safety. I have started to notice a vast increase in gay men pretty much advocating for bareback sex, even ones who are HIV positive most on ART and undetectable also many who are HIV and detectable but still engaging and many willing to engage (bug chasers), even when given the diagnosis they are still willing to engage in unsafe sex either it be undetectable or detectable. Why are so many gay men willing to engage in this? Most of it seems to be happening in gay saunas, dark rooms, or chemsex parties. Why has we not learnt anything that happened during the 80s. Of course not all gay men lead this lifestyle but the vast majority do. What are other peoples thoughts on this topic?

Your extremely offensive, broadbrush of a thread attempts to paint an entire of class of people with certain behaviors/actions based on the your LIMITED exposure to a few gay men. Because in perspective, your experience is just that, yours.

The majority of gay people lead normal, everyday lives. We live our lives like the majority of straight folks do. Without drama.

With normal, everyday ups, downs and in between.

Some of us are married. Some of us are single.

Some of us are monogamous. Some of us are not.

Some of us like vanilla sex. Some of us like kinky sex.

But at the end of the day, the gay community is no different than any other community.

With normal, everyday ups, downs and in between.

And to try and shame an entire community based on a small sampling? That's bullshit. Pure, unadulterated bullshit. :poop: :poop::poop:

And thanks to both @englad and @chrisrobin for your reality checks!

Sometimes I have to wonder if some of my gay brethren do suffer from self-hate. This thread is riddled with it. :confounded:
 

Northerner2023

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Your extremely offensive, broadbrush of a thread attempts to paint an entire of class of people with certain behaviors/actions based on the your LIMITED exposure to a few gay men. Because in perspective, your experience is just that, yours.

The majority of gay people lead normal, everyday lives. We live our lives like the majority of straight folks do. Without drama.

With normal, everyday ups, downs and in between.

Some of us are married. Some of us are single.

Some of us are monogamous. Some of us are not.

Some of us like vanilla sex. Some of us like kinky sex.

But at the end of the day, the gay community is no different than any other community.

With normal, everyday ups, downs and in between.
And to try and shame an entire community based on a small sampling? That's bullshit. Pure, unadulterated bullshit. :poop: :poop::poop:

And thanks to both @englad and @chrisrobin for your reality checks!

Sometimes I have to wonder if some of my gay brethren do suffer from self-hate. This thread is riddled with it. :confounded:
If that's what you want to believe then so be it but don't say we are no different to any other community, no community is the same. The gay committee is vastly different to that of our heterosexual counter parts. I love being gay I just don't like or par take in some of it's less savoury parts.
 

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If that's what you want to believe then so be it but don't say we are no different to any other community, no community is the same. The gay committee is vastly different to that of our heterosexual counter parts. I love being gay I just don't like or par take in some of it's less savoury parts.
It's not what I want to believe. It's what I know. Nothing I said is not factual. And at my age, I know! :)

You seem to somehow enjoy foisting and justifying the behavior of a minority of gay folks onto the majority of gay folks. And that's simply nothing but a huge reach on your part.

It simply is not true what you have been saying in this thread.

And generally speaking, the gay community is not vastly different to that of the heterosexual community.

They too have their share of straights whose behaviors are similar to that which you seek to ascribe to all gay folks.

And you said basically this yourself: "I love being gay I just don't like or par take (sic) in some of it's (sic) less savoury parts".

I can assure you that the straight community suffers the same "less savoury parts".

But that doesn't fit your narrative here, does it? :confounded:
 

Northerner2023

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Because you say it's factual doesn't mean it's so you haven't provided evidence
Unlike me. Here in the UK Gay men are still presenting more with HIV than heterosexual men. Also as you stated you are old enough you would know that during the 80s if was primarily gay men that were dying of Aids much of it caught through gay bath houses as their are know in America. Have you read any of Larry Kramers work.
UK HIV Statistics | National AIDS Trust
 

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Because you say it's factual doesn't mean it's so you haven't provided evidence
Unlike me. Here in the UK Gay men are still presenting more with HIV than heterosexual men. Also as you stated you are old enough you would know that during the 80s if was primarily gay men that were dying of Aids much of it caught through gay bath houses as their are know in America. Have you read any of Larry Kramers work.
UK HIV Statistics | National AIDS Trust
You can't compare gays and straights in such a blanket way. There are obviously going to be differences just based on numbers, and that isn't counting homophobia, anti gay policy and terrible systemic sex education as factors.

You are ignoring history and sociology big time. And that's just ridiculous. You are whether you intend to or not slandering gay people as defective or sick or more prone to disease by default. STOP
 
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Northerner2023

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You can't compare gays and straights in such a blanket way. There are obviously going to be differences just based on numbers, and that isn't counting homophobia, anti gay policy and terrible systemic sex education as factors.

You are ignoring history and sociology big time. And that's just ridiculous. You are whether you intend to or not slandering gay people as defective or sick or more prone to disease by default. STOP
I can compare and i did
 

englad

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You can't compare gays and straights in such a blanket way. There are obviously going to be differences just based on numbers, and that isn't counting homophobia, anti gay policy and terrible systemic sex education as factors.

You are ignoring history and sociology big time. And that's just ridiculous. You are whether you intend to or not slandering gay people as defective or sick or more prone to disease by default. STOP

He is doing this for one reason, internalised homophobia. That's it. You were also right to bring up anti-gay policy and homophobia, when the HIV/AIDS pandemic, both the UK and US had very homophobic governments. Thatcher's government brought in the first piece of homophobic legislation (section 28, which banned local authorities from "promoting" homosexuality). Fortunately though and despite how homophobic they were, her government did try to tackle it more quickly than Regan's administration did, and particularly the health secretary, Norman Fowler, should be praised for his efforts:

Former health secretary Norman Fowler: ‘Some said those with HIV should be in isolation. Perpetually’

Because you say it's factual doesn't mean it's so you haven't provided evidence
Unlike me. Here in the UK Gay men are still presenting more with HIV than heterosexual men. Also as you stated you are old enough you would know that during the 80s if was primarily gay men that were dying of Aids much of it caught through gay bath houses as their are know in America. Have you read any of Larry Kramers work.
UK HIV Statistics | National AIDS Trust

I find it very strange the way you're bringing this sort of blanket comparison between gays and straights. But seeing as you wish to discuss the UK in particular. Here's a link to the findings of the royal commission, which is aiming to end new HIV transmissions by 2030:

What the data says – HIV Commission

1639850062142.png

1639850502831.png



You can see quite clearly that the group where new HIV infections are falling fastest are in MSM (men having sex with men), and that drop has been significant over the last few years. So, I wonder why you are grabbing a stick to beat your own community with, precisely. The reason how this has been achieved is effective safer sex education campaigns, and PREP and ART being free of charge on the NHS. You quite clearly have an agenda, and an ugly one at that.

A little note on the NHS, the financial cost of an HIV patient's treatment, firstly, it pales into insignificance compared to the cost of a covid sceptic on ICU (or the treatment of a whole bunch of other preventable diseases ), or the consequences of not paying for the HIV consequences in the first place. Secondly, that's not the bloody point of the NHS in the first place, it doesn't decide who "deserves" treatment and who "doesn't". The purpose of it, is that it is a tax funded health service that gives EVERYONE free healthcare at the point of issue and it was set up in the ashes of a devastating world war, and this is precisely why it is such a beloved and respected national institution.
 
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