Think-tank says 'downgrade Christmas'

[dong20]

I thought this sounded like a great idea, then I read the reason why.

Think-tank says 'downgrade Christmas' - Yahoo! News UK

While we're selling our national culture (rather, the tattered remnants thereof) down the pan, perhaps we should change the name of our country to doormat-land?

No, wait! According to some unelected think-tank (some members of which, I suspect were created and live in damp, low light environments) we're not allowed to have a national culture anymore. Problem solved.

I'm entirely in favour of integration, fair play and equality. However the concept of integration implies, well....integration, doesn't it?

There is an upside though; if there is a new bank holiday for every one that exists in the cultures represented in the UK I'd vote for it. I may never have to work again.

 

[SpoiledPrincess]

Couldn't agree more, we're not allowed to even pipe up about being walked all over.

In the name of tolerance we allow all sorts of liberties to people who join our country to partake of its benefits without wanting to become a true part of it.

 

[JustAsking]

I think the idea of a national culture is an adaptation of something more primitive. For the last 50,000 years up until a few hundred years ago, we evolved into social creatures who depend on a social group in order to survive. Tribes were the thing, and all of our social instincts have adapted to that.

In the past, tribes did have their own culture and it was an essential cohesive force.

Our problem is that in our practices, our population growth, and our technology, we have outgrown our tribal past. So we search for something "tribe-like" in order to cast our allegiance, and from which we derive our "identity context".

That actually worked for a while, in that up until the 20th century, people were not that mobile from country to country, so a national culture could evolve and be observed without much interference by large groups of foreigners. (Yes there have always been big perturbations on this, like the Romans conquering Europe, but then there were hundreds of years of stability in between).

I think through all this, we have not shed our need for being part of a tribe of some sort. But unfortunately, we are so mobile around the globe now that it is no longer practical.

So what we see here is a conflict between our tribal instincts and a highly mobile global population. This is a difficult social problem and at some point we will have to adapt to it.

America was a pretty good experiment in that regard. It set up a Constitution that tended to protect subcultures from other subcultures. So it worked ok as wave after wave of immigrants came over during the 19th and 20th centuries.

However, we now have a nation of relatively unhappy people, I think. Where there is no tribe to identify with, we either have a sense of loss of identity, or we create some artificial tribalness in order to identify with.

Sometimes that gets ugly. Lately, in our hour of fear, we see all kinds of concern about immigration laws, as if we have some kind of American culture that is being diluted. We see people trying to legislate English as the official language, etc. It is futile, and it will end very differently than the tribalists envision. We will either become very cosmopolitan or we will actually partition the country into different cultural areas.

In between, though, there will be lots of silliness and lots of ugliness.

 

[SpeedoGuy]

No, wait! According to some unelected think-tank (some members of which, I suspect were created and live in damp, low light environments) we're not allowed to have a national culture anymore. Problem solved.

A different problem over here. According to the sneers of some self-appointed old world elitists, the new world never had any culture so such issues don't come up.

 

[earllogjam]

A different problem over here. According to the sneers of some self-appointed old world elitists, the new world never had any culture so such issues don't come up.

Yes, SpeedoGuy, in the new world Christmas has been cleverly transformed into a 3 month long sales blitz. Hell, Xmas season, as it is called here began two weeks ago with winter holiday music in Macy's - nothing like Christmas in October.

In the place of old world elitists we have Madison Avenue executives who have molded the holiday into one large pot of gold, a quasi religious celebration of capitalism, much like the cleverly invented holidays of Mother's Day, Father's Day Grandparent's Day, Secretary's Day, and Valentine's Day.

Thank God Madison Avenue hasn't touched Thanksgiving.

 

[B_ScaredLittleBoy]

I've heard this before. If its about minorities not approving of Christmas. Fuck them.

I went to the Trafford Centre recently and a large area of it was SEALED OFF and only Muslims were allowed access to it. (It was for Eid).

I didn't complain.

Leave Christmas alone. Father Christmas is real! :tongue:

 

[chico8]

Sometimes that gets ugly. Lately, in our hour of fear, we see all kinds of concern about immigration laws, as if we have some kind of American culture that is being diluted. We see people trying to legislate English as the official language, etc. It is futile, and it will end very differently than the tribalists envision. We will either become very cosmopolitan or we will actually partition the country into different cultural areas.

In between, though, there will be lots of silliness and lots of ugliness.

I don't think our fear of the other is all that recent. The Chinese Exclusion Act of the 1880s was but the first anti-immigrant action in the US. It was followed up repeatedly through the early 1900s by quotas for other ethnicities.


I've read recently that people in the most diverse communities have less of an attachment to their "village" than people who live in homogenous communities. I think it's a basic human instinct to seek out those who most resemble us. There's a lot of comfort in being around those who share the same basic values. Traveling in a foreign country is always exciting but at the same time it's somewhat bewildering and generally a pleasure to find someone who shares the same sense of humor, the same cultural background, the same values.

Emigration is an ultimately an act of separation. Whether we emigrate from New York to California or from Chile to Canada. There are many communities in the US that have a Little Italy, a Chinatown, a little Poland, etc. It's inevitable and desirable that immigrants bring a part of their culture with them. However, forcing those who have nothing to do with a particular culture to honor an immigrant's holy days does nothing for the new community. If people want to preserve their traditions, culture or language, they have every right to do so. But forcing these on the new community is not the way forward.

 

[B_spiker067]

I think the idea of a national culture is an adaptation of something more primitive. For the last 50,000 years up until a few hundred years ago, we evolved into social creatures who depend on a social group in order to survive. Tribes were the thing, and all of our social instincts have adapted to that.

In the past, tribes did have their own culture and it was an essential cohesive force.

Our problem is that in our practices, our population growth, and our technology, we have outgrown our tribal past. So we search for something "tribe-like" in order to cast our allegiance, and from which we derive our "identity context".

That actually worked for a while, in that up until the 20th century, people were not that mobile from country to country, so a national culture could evolve and be observed without much interference by large groups of foreigners. (Yes there have always been big perturbations on this, like the Romans conquering Europe, but then there were hundreds of years of stability in between).

I think through all this, we have not shed our need for being part of a tribe of some sort. But unfortunately, we are so mobile around the globe now that it is no longer practical.

So what we see here is a conflict between our tribal instincts and a highly mobile global population. This is a difficult social problem and at some point we will have to adapt to it.

America was a pretty good experiment in that regard. It set up a Constitution that tended to protect subcultures from other subcultures. So it worked ok as wave after wave of immigrants came over during the 19th and 20th centuries.

However, we now have a nation of relatively unhappy people, I think. Where there is no tribe to identify with, we either have a sense of loss of identity, or we create some artificial tribalness in order to identify with.

Sometimes that gets ugly. Lately, in our hour of fear, we see all kinds of concern about immigration laws, as if we have some kind of American culture that is being diluted. We see people trying to legislate English as the official language, etc. It is futile, and it will end very differently than the tribalists envision. We will either become very cosmopolitan or we will actually partition the country into different cultural areas.

In between, though, there will be lots of silliness and lots of ugliness.

In this post you use the term evolve. Are you talking in a genes and evolution sense or about memes?

 

[Mr. Snakey]

Fuck the think tank

 

[agnslz]

I really don't see how this is such a bad recommendation or problem. I think any free nation that also fancies itself as being a place of religious liberty ought to be either willing to publically and officially celebrate all religious holidays or none of them.

 

[Drifterwood]

Fuck the think tank

Agreed. Add the new, don't destroy the existing.

 

[Mr. Snakey]

Agreed. Add the new, don't destroy the existing.

Im sick of Big Brother telling me what i should do and how should live and then they want to lable me too. Sad fact is people listen to this garbage. Like Lambs to the slaughter................

 

[Drifterwood]

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

I'm having a Jefferson day. :biggrin1:​

 

[Principessa]

I've heard this before. If its about minorities not approving of Christmas. Fuck them. I went to the Trafford Centre recently and a large area of it was SEALED OFF and only Muslims were allowed access to it. (It was for Eid). I didn't complain. Excellent Point! Leave Christmas alone. Father Christmas is real! :tongue:

I'm with you ScaredLittle Boy! I was in my 20's before I stopped going to the mall to have my picture taken on Santa's lap hahaha. Though as a Yank I reserve the right to call him Santa Claus. :smile:

 

[Mr. Snakey]

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."​

I'm having a Jefferson day. :biggrin1:​

I hear ya!:biggrin1: Well said.