This is a "Real" Death Panel

Bbucko

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Health Care is a right?

Actually, it is recognized as a right. Any hospital that operates in the US and which accepts public funds of any type is obliged to provide emergency care, regardless of one's ability to pay. As a med student, I'd think you'd have known that.

Again, based on your posting history here, I'm going to suggest that you stick with research. Judging by the tone you employ, your bedside manner would leave much to be desired.
 

B_Nick4444

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Health Care is a right?


Where in the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments to the Constitution for those of you outside the USA or who went to public school in the USA) does it say that? Or anywhere in the Constitution? That is the document that decrees what rights we as citizens hold.

exactly
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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Health Care is a right?


Where in the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments to the Constitution for those of you outside the USA or who went to public school in the USA) does utit say that? Or anywhere in the Constitution? That is the document that decrees what rights we as citizens hold.

The preamble states that the union was created to provide for the general welfare of the people. That's simple. But since I'm sure you'll labor this point, we are a party to the UN declaration of Human Rights, and that is indeed the law of the land per the Constitution. You are aware of that, right?

As for living in a society and paying taxes, I have not problem. How about we agree that you and I (assuming you live in the USA) pay equally on a percentage of our income rather than a sliding scale based on what you or I make? That seems fair.

No, that does not seem fair. It looks as if we have to teach you some economics, as that is where you appear lacking.

We have a progressive income tax because that is fair. A flat tax is not fair at all, it's a handout to the rich, and a burden on the poor. That's because money has differing utility at various income levels. For instance, a poor person spends much of income purely getting by, so spending 25% of it on taxes is a huge burden, while a rich person is paying a much smaller percentage of his money on consumption, and can better afford to pay more. Food is expensive for a poor person, and basically nothing for a rich one. That is why we have progressive taxation: The decreasing marginal utility of the dollar.

In more practical terms, we have already had such generous tax rates for the wealthy that money has become far too concentrated at the top, to the point where the wealthy can disproportionately influence the democratic process. If we were to tax the population flatly, we'd be unable to fund many needed services.

The flat tax is an unsound theory generally floated by the rich(Steve Forbes) because it benefits them, and those favoring small government, because that's all you can fund on it. It works because most people don't understand economics and it sounds "fair" at low information levels.

What is not fair is the present system where about half the population pays no income tax and about 25% of the population pays 75% of what the Fed collects.

No that is quite fair, and probably not progressive enough. The problem here is your ignorance of economics, not the progressive tax rate.

You also seem to have a bizarre view that the bottom portion of the country is paying no income tax because they're lazy or some other reason of choice, rather than the fact that this is a reflection of a highly top heavy distribution of wealth.
 

maxcok

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Health Care is a right?

Where in the Bill of Rights (the first 10 amendments to the Constitution for those of you outside the USA or who went to public school in the USA) does it say that? Or anywhere in the Constitution? That is the document that decrees what rights we as citizens hold.
Not in the Constitution, but in the very first document are Declared these fundamental principles on which our Republic is founded:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
I think the intent is pretty clear. I don't see how people can live safely, freely and happily without access to affordable healthcare, or live at all in many cases. If the American people - free from rightwing propaganda, scare tactics, and backdoor corporate influence - were allowed to decide for themselves, they would not only see universal healthcare as a fundamental right, they would demand it, just as citizens in most industrialized countries have.

BTW, I first became familiar with that document in public school, memorized it in fact. Fourth grade, if I recall.
This one too:
We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
I like this too: "No country can be strong if its people are sick and poor." -- Theodore Roosevelt

 
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D_Davy_Downspout

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I'm sure he's looking for a literal "healthcare is a right" line. Because the life and death of your fellow man is definitely where you want to be focusing on the letter rather than spirit of US law...
 

maxcok

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I'm sure he's looking for a literal "healthcare is a right" line. Because the life and death of your fellow man is definitely where you want to be focusing on the letter rather than spirit of US law...
If we based everything we did as a nation on a literal reading of the documents, we wouldn't have progressed very far, or perhaps even exist.
 

D_Davy_Downspout

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If we based everything we did as a nation on a literal reading of the documents, we wouldn't have progressed very far, or perhaps even exist.

Well going by the whims of a 200 year dead group of old white men is probably not always the best course. I mean, slaves and women with no vote was great, but then we changed it.

Maybe we need a healthcare amendment?
 

maxcok

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Well going by the whims of a 200 year dead group of old white men is probably not always the best course. I mean, slaves and women with no vote was great, but then we changed it.
The "whims" of the "dead white men" were intended as a foundation to build on, not a fait accompli. There was hardly unanimity among them either, not by a long shot. Nice try, but I'm not following you down that road.

Maybe we need a healthcare amendment?
You'd have as much chance of getting any progressive amendment through Congress (or the state legislatures) as you would sprouting wings and flying to Neptune tomorrow. We're half past the eleventh hour in a 30+ year systematic campaign by corporate interests to control the levers of power, to have free rein (or reign) to do as they please, and to manipulate every aspect of our consumerist lives. Look what they did to the healthcare bill. The only way to get out of the mess we're in is if there is a major organized pushback from the people against the corporatist agenda, a la the Wisconsin protests. But that would require the ignorant, gullible, entertained-to-death electorate to get educated, get motivated, get involved, and to get off their lazy asses and actually do something - like protest en masse and engage in civil disobedience. The first order of business would be to demand Congress and the Supreme Court put an end to all backdoor lobbying and special interest campaign financing, most especially corporate financing, which is the root of all the trouble. Other than moves by organized labor to protect their collective bargaining rights, which is vitally important, I'm not holding out much hope of that happening.
 
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phillyhangin

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But since I'm sure you'll labor this point, we are a party to the UN declaration of Human Rights, and that is indeed the law of the land per the Constitution. You are aware of that, right?
A tiny technicality: The UN Declaration of Human Rights was passed by the UN as a binding resolution, but it requires the ratification of the US Congress before it becomes domestic law. Unfortunately, Congress never ratified it, seeing it as an infringement of our sovereign rights (or some such), so it's not (sadly) the law of the land. However, as a binding resolution, all members of the UN are required to ratify it and to adopt laws that embody the principles of the DoHR, so technically, the US is in direct violation of the terms of its membership by failing to ratify and enact a duly passed binding resolution. This could, in principal, expose us to sanctions, but given our veto power, that's highly unlikely. (Isn't that convenient?)

The big irony is that America helped push through the DoHR, and then promptly chose not to ratify it when it passed. Another irony is that the US happily invokes human rights violations under DoHR against other countries even though it is equally guilty under a duly ratified international treaty (its decision to join the UN) for deliberately failing to ratify and enact DoHR. In fact, failing to ratify and enact DoHR is unconstutional, because by ratifying our membership in the UN, Congress made UN bylaws officially binding under the Constitution - including the part about ratifying and enacting binding resolutions.

Regardless of those technicalities, from a practical perspective, a healthy population benefits everyone, so even the most heartless, "self-interested" person should want to promote the public health if for no other reason than that it benefits them in the long run to do so. Unfortunately, as I mentioned before, many conservatives don't seem to take a "long run" view of things; it's all about short-term profits, even if the long-term costs far exceed those profits.
 

phillyhangin

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The only way to get out of the mess we're in is if there is a major organized pushback from the people against the corporatist agenda, a la the Wisconsin protests. But that would require the ignorant, gullible, entertained-to-death electorate to get educated, get motivated, get involved, and to get off their lazy asses and actually do something - like protest en masse and engage in civil disobedience.
It's happening on a small scale with various local goverments passing ordinances and such, but unfortunately, it hasn't coalesced into a larger movement, which is what is needed.

The first order of business would be to demand Congress and the Supreme Court put an end to all backdoor lobbying and special interest campaign financing, most especially corporate financing, which is the root of all the trouble.
Unfortunately, since corporations now effectively control the election process, that's unlikely to change from the top down; our only real hope is to force changes from the bottom up. I'm just not sure how effective we can be as long as corporations continue to claim rights - and courts continue to recognize those claims - based on misinterpreted precedents.
 

maxcok

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It's happening on a small scale with various local goverments passing ordinances and such, but unfortunately, it hasn't coalesced into a larger movement, which is what is needed.

Unfortunately, since corporations now effectively control the election process, that's unlikely to change from the top down; our only real hope is to force changes from the bottom up. I'm just not sure how effective we can be as long as corporations continue to claim rights - and courts continue to recognize those claims - based on misinterpreted precedents.
Well, I sketched out what would be required in the rest of my post you quoted and why I'm not holding my breath for the people to take the initiative. Sooner or later I expect there will be a systemic failure of significant proportion and subsequent collapse of the social structure, perhaps accompanied by disruption of infotainment media, that will shake people out of their somnambulance and force them into survival mode. Perhaps sooner than people think or expect.
 

phillyhangin

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Well, I sketched out what would be required in the rest of my post you quoted and why I'm not holding my breath for the people to take the initiative. Sooner or later I expect there will be a systemic failure of significant proportion and subsequent collapse of the social structure, perhaps accompanied by disruption of infotainment media, that will shake people out of their somnambulance and force them into survival mode. Perhaps sooner than people think or expect.
I agree. There was an interesting program called "Prophets of Doom" that aired recently on, I believe, the History International channel. It was a panel of six futurists discussing the issues that are facing us, such as peak oil, financial instability leading to total collapse, water shortages, collapse of the food system, terrorism, and so forth. The only one that I had to laugh at was the guy who claimed that "intelligent robots might rise up and destroy humanity," but everyone else on the panel pretty much shut him down by saying, "Dude, if any of the other things we're discussing happens first, your robot massacre won't happen."

Aside from robot dude (who did come to realize how silly his concern was), the rest of them made their cases for the most pressing problems facing us. The consensus eventually reached was that they're all the most pressing problem because they're all happening simultaneously. The solution they agreed upon was relocalization: local management of water resources, growing food near where it's consumed, building stronger local economies, and so on - all things that I've been advocating for years. Sadly, as the panelists pointed out, for many people, these problems are too big to wrap their heads around, so they end up not thinking about them at all - or worse, pretending that they don't exist. That's probably the main reason that taking effective action is so difficult. And that's also why I fear that some form of collapse is going to happen before people wake up.

At least I know how to garden and save seeds...
 

maxcok

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Sadly, as the panelists pointed out, for many people, these problems are too big to wrap their heads around, so they end up not thinking about them at all - or worse, pretending that they don't exist. That's probably the main reason that taking effective action is so difficult. And that's also why I fear that some form of collapse is going to happen before people wake up.
Well, as long as the people have their bread and circuses, what else matters?

At least I know how to garden and save seeds...
Are you planting turnips? Oh fiddle-dee-dee, I'll think about that tomorrow.
 

phillyhangin

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Well, as long as the people have their bread and circuses, what else matters?
True. At least we'll have the new season of American Idol to watch while everything's going down - at least until the power goes out.

Turnips are one of the few things I don't grow. Never sure quite what to do with 'em. :wink:
 

maxcok

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Turnips are one of the few things I don't grow. Never sure quite what to do with 'em. :wink:
They do quite nicely roasted along with other root vegetables in a balsamic marinade.

Or just brush the dirt off and gnaw on them raw straight out of the ground if you're desperate.
 

phillyhangin

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They do quite nicely roasted along with other root vegetables in a balsamic marinade.

Or just brush the dirt off and gnaw on them raw straight out of the ground if you're desperate.
I've done them in soups with varying degrees of success, but roasted with a balsamic glaze sounds pretty good. Other than soups, the only other thing that I could think of was to feed them to pigs - not that we're allowed to keep pigs here. :wink:

Maybe I need to carve out a little corner of my garden and see what I can do.
 

maxcok

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I've done them in soups with varying degrees of success, but roasted with a balsamic glaze sounds pretty good. Other than soups, the only other thing that I could think of was to feed them to pigs - not that we're allowed to keep pigs here. :wink:

Maybe I need to carve out a little corner of my garden and see what I can do.
They're remarkably easy to grow if you use good root crop techniques. The greens are quite nutritious and tasty slow cooked with a little ham hock and sprinkled with hot pepper vinegar.

I sometimes dice and cook the roots along with tart apples and a little sweet onion, then fold them into mashed potatoes, my version of Himmel und Erde. Top with sour cream and a dash of nutmeg. Sehr gut!

p.s. Just to be clear, you did get my tongue in cheek GWTW turnip references, yes?
......I wasn't necessarily advocating you actually grow them, not that you shouldn't.
 
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phillyhangin

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p.s. Just to be clear, you did get my tongue in cheek GWTW turnip references, yes?
......I wasn't necessarily advocating you actually grow them, not that you shouldn't.
Oh, I got it, I just didn't want to come back with any "As god is my witness..." lines. :wink: Besides, she wouldn't have known what to do with a turnip either if there were no one there to cook it for her.

I thought it was radishes, btw, but my memory is hazy. I grow those in abundance - the hotter the better!