This is worse than the nationstates forum

B_Gravedancer

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Thank you, everyone on this page. I couldn't have shown it as well without such examples.

Ironically, this post is about those who can't take criticism and flame in response to it, manlybanisters. Stop flaming
 

ManlyBanisters

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Thank you, everyone on this page. I couldn't have shown it as well without such examples.

Ironically, this post is about those who can't take criticism and flame in response to it, manlybanisters. Stop flaming

Don't assume to tell me what to do.

Don't assume you are right. No one here is flaming anyone. You are an over-sensitive soul, aren't you.

I repeat - Learn to take criticism.
 

Phil Ayesho

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I
I take it then that you do not consider the US to be the greatest civilisation in history?

And then there is the apparent anomaly of individuals with no limits on their power being lauded by history, Caesar, Alexander, Ghenghis Khan, the Pharoahs etc. Perhaps noone has got the balance right yet between authority and personal freedom.

Discuss :biggrin1:

Well- I think the America of the 40s thru the 80s was the most advnaced incarnation of the greatest civilization.

Looking aorund the world, what you find is that the most successful democracies... the only nations that really "get" the idea of maximum perosnal liberty COUPLED with maximum personal responsibility... are ALL former colonies of Great Britain.

It is not an accident that the nation that came up with the Magna Carta and the Scottish enlightment is the nation that has left the most enduring mark on places as diverse as Hong Kong and Boston.
( the Spanish, for example, never really understood the concept, and none of their former colonies are much more than states ruled by bribery and graft.)

I think the Critical Leap made by America was the end of aristocracy and the separation of church and State.

When you look at the America that wowed the world in WW1 and WW2- that helped rebuild the world after the war, and that has steadfastly pushed the world toward greater freedoms and better relations...

That was an America that had a very well balanced mix of socialized systems to meet the needs of the people, AND well regulated capitalism that encouraged enterprise and generated enormous wealth.

That was WHY iot was so successful...

However- since the re-emergence of "free market" lunacy and the co-opting of religious fanaticism that the republicans used to gain power... we have seen a marked decline in both American prestige, and American fortunes.
The willful muddling of religion into our government, and the insanity of unregulated markets has led us, and allowed us to lead the world to the brink of this disaster.

The real insanity is the same sense of moral certainty that marks ALL dogmas... bith religious and political.
The very idea that any ONE idea, be it capitalism, or socialism, or communism, is sufficient to make stable something as complex as the world economy is naive, sophomoric, ignorant, and plainly dangerous.

How much suffering ensues from certainty in the tenets of communism- or captialism? History is rife with it.


How much damage does it do to our national identity and sense of each other as fellow citizens when we DEMONIZE, with moral certainty, the beliefs of the Left or the Right?


We have allowed our national discourse to become polarized... allowed ourselves to be played like calliopes....

It is particularly bad when those who ARE conservative are so blinded by dogmatic association with one group as to be incapable of even recognizing when that group CEASES to be conservative in its actions.
it has gotten to the point of "free market" now being ASSUMED to be the cornerstone of what it means to be 'conservative"... rather than to have how conservative an Idea is be judged by its EFFECTS.


No- I do not admire the cultures of the Hun, nor imperial Rome.

Thus far- Western style democratic Republics in the Anglo/american mold are the freest and most tolerant societies earth has yet seen.


But we are still changing... the question is, into what?

Will be be an even freer, even fairer society?

Or will we allow the mean and timid temperaments of the fearful and hate filled drive the directions of this culture?

At some point in the near future, the world will have to come to grips with 11 billion souls ALL wanting a car, a house, a flat screen TV and a computer.


And come to grips with the limited resources, limited food and water, that will mean that there will be little place left for the people who want way more than their fair share.

Either the more affluent figure out a way to SHARE that affluence... or the teeming poor will simply come and TAKE it... as they did to Rome, as they Did to France...


Conservatives, today, live in the delusion that things can keep going this way for ever... that they can RESIST change...

But evolution drives those that can not adapt to extinction.

Can America Adapt to a fairer future where we DON'T take far more resources than is our share?


I don't know... I do know, with the example of long history, that if we can not stop the backwards forces of neo-conservatism...that America will cease to matter in the world... and that we will go the way of the dodo...
 
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Principessa

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Thanks for the advice. I'll reciprocate if I may.

Strongly disagreeing with someone is not flaming. Flaming is caused by the manner in which the protagonist makes their original point. If someone flames you when you have simply and uncritically made your point, then the issue is theirs not yours. However, I would say that the reverse has been the case with you.

I'm not being holier than thou, I have done and still do the same on occasion.
:cool:QFT!
The situation you mentioned with the issue being theirs is every situation i've been in. My threads are bogged down with people simply saying how dumb I am, and I can't get in a word edgewise without 10 more people spamming how I am stupid and my opinion is wrong and dumb.This is where the massive slant of the forum becomes an issue.
Bogged down? Hmm, if that many people called me dumb I'd either do more research on the topic or leave and go someplace where my opinions were appreciated. :cool:

Disguised flaming is still flaming
True, which is why I wonder why you are still here. Though to be accurate your posts are more trolling than flaming.

You seem to be under the impression that if you don't like the answer it is a flame and that if a person continues to argue his point in a thread it is a flame. You are wrong on both counts.

Learn to take criticism.
Well stated as usual.
 
D

deleted213967

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I don't know... I do know, with the example of long history, that if we can not stop the backwards forces of neo-conservatism...that America will cease to matter in the world... and that we will go the way of the dodo...


The continental Europe model you are implicitly advocating has admittedly helped smooth economic cycles: recessions have not been as harsh as ours, and social programs have protected the weaker to a greater extent, but then again growth has been anemic there for many many years and unemployment remained high (and underestimated by the use of bogus state-sponsored training programs).

Your call for more regulation is not opposed by anyone, including in conservative circles. Regulation acts like many drugs, the therapeutic dose is close to the lethal dose and side effects may be worse than the condition treated.

I believe everyone agrees both the US and the global capital markets need to be less leveraged, but the devil is in the details.

What specific regulations would you want?
 

marleyisalegend

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marley used something like penis based psychoanalysis on mesomeone over the internet, and I threw it pack in his face.

Nice try, it doesn't take rocket science to psychoanalyze someone as neurotic, delusional, ignorant, and narcissistic as you, I could catch that vibe if I read your posts with one eye closed.

I try to be a positive person. I'm sure you're an older guy so some may write you off as a lost cause but if you can pull your head from your rear end I'm sure that your mind can be put to good use other than being a tool for corporate America.

You're actually pretty boring and I haven't been paying much (or any) attention to your posts lately. Nice to say that my name is still in your mouth, can't believe I've left such a strong impression and I haven't even touched your dick yet. As if I ever would. I'd rather have a rhinoceros stomp on my testicles than have to spend a single waking moment anywhere near you.

You're pretty one-dimensional and boring and although your trolling guarantees a fair amount of attention, don't expect much more from me.
 
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Phil Ayesho

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The continental Europe model you are implicitly advocating has admittedly helped smooth economic cycles: recessions have not been as harsh as ours, and social programs have protected the weaker to a greater extent, but then again growth has been anemic there for many many years and unemployment remained high (and underestimated by the use of bogus state-sponsored training programs).


Once more- with feeling... Growth ONLY occurs when MARKETS grow.

When a nation has a stable population, like most of Europe- or even a DECLINING population, as in Italy... then they will have anemic economies.

America's economy grew in leaps and bound while it had HIGH immigration ( a growing number of consumers) Expanding availability to resources ( dropping prices for raw materials and food) and as long as it was penetrating new markets thru ever expanding electrical grids, railroads, highways and distribution systems.
We also grew a great deal when we were penetrating ever larger FOREIGN markets with good we exported.

But now- as with MOST of Europe, our distribution systems are optimal. Our entire nation well served by roads and power... the same stores in every damn mall.
In short- we no longer have a growing market here at home... with the exception of the rate at which our population increases ( mostly illegal immigrants )

A look at our last 20 years of economic growth will show that our growth in GNP precisely matches our growth in population.
Similarly, you will find that the European nations that are showing growth are only those who have allowed immigration in numbers that have had a net positive effect on their populations.

Our GNP DID see some growth beyond that of population as the US was the primary beneficiary of the development of the internet world wide... but this was the last time the US saw any significant New Markets overseas.

China is growing because they are in the process of building distribution systems in a nation of 1.4 billion that, until now, have largely had no electricity...no effective roadways... As they grow- more and more of their vast population become consumers... monetarily, this is the same as a growing population because it is developing NEW markets and tapping NEW sources of labor.





I am not kidding... Capitalism is a PONSI scheme. Believers seem to think it works by magic- or that wealth can be created out of thin air and avarice.

The mechanics of capitalism are well understood.
When you run out of GROWTH- in population or emerging markets... Capitalism CEASES to work.

The US has run out of growth. And our "free market" government, who do not even remotely understand capitalism, have done less than NOTHING to improve the ability of the US to export goods and services to those nations that DO have new emerging markets... India, China and Africa.

If it were not for Timber, Food, and Mineral extraction... those resources we are still world suppliers of...the US economy would have collapsed 25 years ago.


What specific regulations would you want?

Government needs to CONTROL and regulate the offshoiring of jobs...and the offshoring of investment capital.

It does us no good to lower taxes on the rich when they invest that money in Chinese jobs and Chinese production.

Government needs to control what the board members of a company can pay themselves. Wages have stagnated in the US... MOSTLY due to the corporate officers drawing enormous amounts out for themselves... The $80 million taken by the officers of AIG- divided into a workforce of 4,000 COULD have funded a $20,000 raise in salary...

Financial instrument's must be regulated to ensure folks are not playing fast and loose.
Deregulating mortgage lending was a cynical attempt to get better economic numbers by creating an artificial "growth" market in housing.
Not based upon real wages and people's real ability to pay... but upon the fact that LOTS of folks who can't afford to buy houses would buy houses if they could get a loan.

Encouraging Americans to do their 'patriotic duty" and SPEND money they don't have- going into debt... ALSO shows up as market growth in the GNP... but it is not real growth.,.. it is productivity BORROWED from future productivity... those debts have to be paid... by a future economy that is NOT going to be growing, either.

This is FALSIFYING growth... without real wage increases consumers can not afford to increase consumption.


The government should encourage immigration. That is real growth... the US trading on its better living conditions for real market growth..

The government should start a jobs program NOW investing in new energy infrastructure- you can not offshore a job pouring concrete in the US.

The government should offer the greatest imaginable incentives to NEW industries developing NEW clean energy technology... and implementing that technology... including 20 year legal monopoly in exchange for government control of margins. ( the same thing it did with power, telephone and Cable development)

The Government should push hard to make the US into the world's foremost technology exporter. And I don't mean fighter planes... IT should be US companies setting up clean power and clean water in India, in Africa, in China.

The Govenrment should offer subsidized tuition for ALL students going after technology degrees. Physicists, chemists, Biologists, Geneticists... and the government should invest heavily and remove religious obstructions to Biotech research....in this century, Biotechnology will become the largest industry in the world.

And foreign companies wanting access to American markets should be forced to EMPLOY Americans to get that access. This is what saved the US Auto industry... when duties on imported cars made it more cost effective for Toyota to build manufacturing plants HERE than to import.

There needs to be an education program to educate Americans of the REAL nature of capitalism... the real necessity for regulation of any complex system, so that we don't have the hysterical fear response to anything "socialistic"... and we build a greater awareness of Society AS a social compact.

-cause, seriously, if corporations ONLY benefit the few men in control of those corporations... then we can and should do away with them.

We need to educate our people to the idea that it is okay to get rich... if you get rich DOING GOOD. AND that all corporations serve the Nation and people FIRST, and profit second.


Civilization works best when we harness the power of individual self interest to the betterment of the entire community.