This Stimulus Package is going to be an Absolute Disaster

Flashy

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...in its current form.

anyone who thought true "change" was on the way, sorry, but it is business as usual in D.C.

This is merely a "change" back to incompetent, pork barrel democratic party politics from incompetent pork barrel republican politics.


I honestly say, as an independent, i believed obama when he said that he was serious about spending money on infrastructure, on new environmental technology, etc...I strongly support that, and i hoped he would follow through on it...but this bill offers absolutely nothing new.

I honestly believe a stimulus package is both needed and crucial.

if i had a vote to give Obama, the democrats and the republicans on the right stimulus package, i would absolutely do it, as it is critical...

but come on...i have now been examining this bill for a couple of days, and and a very substantial portion of it is pure crap.

Aside from the really ridiculous provisions which have already been struck down thankfully, there are still 100s of billions worth of money that is simply money down the drain...

This is a critical stimulus package, yet there is nearly $150 billion in education spending in it!!! That is completely insane. What exactly do expenditures on school renovation, Head Start, Special Ed etc. have to do with Stimulus? Nothing.

They should be in an education bill sometime later and in the federal budget

This is madness...

I would be utterly thrilled if Obama and the democrats took that $150 billion in proposed spending over the next two years, and crafted a comprehensive, inovative and massive energy plan with it, designed to modernize our power grid, go solar, improve hydro power, wind power, and fund power and research, as well as begin working on new mass transit soultions involving modernzing bus fleets to electric models, and designing and funding in conjunction with private industry a new Mag-Lev rail system among many other cruical things at this critical juncture...I would be absolutely thrilled, and this would truly create real good jobs, in the construction, operation and research sectors...

The plan does have some components of that, but not nearly enough.

this bill as it is, is mostly crap, and it is a disgrace.

anyone who thought Obama and the democrats would be different from the old democrats, or the old republicans should disavow themselves of that notion right this minute. It is more of the same, in more charismatic packaging.

I did not vote for him, nor did i vote for McCain.

But i strongly support a stimulus package, and i honestly support every possible energy initiative, as well as tax cuts/credits for those folks who are really in trouble.

Head Start does not create good jobs.
Painting a classroom is not a good job.


this is bunk, and a disgrace, and not at all a surprise.

why on earth do people keep voting for these two despicable political machines whose only care is their own hold on power?

if we are going to spend an extra near 900 billion in debt, and the interest payments and drain it will cause, this damn well better be properly targeted on utterly crucial needs, not bullshit.

if this package is a fuckup, we will not recover from this for probably close to a decade.

if this package is a fuckup, it will destroy the Obama presidency.

Let's face it, for you Obama supporters, if the economy is even worse in 4 years than it is now, with this package having been passed as it is now, he will not be re-elected, because ultimately "It's the economy, stupid" (or a variation on that)

so, if not for national interest, at least for your own political interests and belief, wouldn't you want this plan to be as absolutely effective as possible?

There is plenty of time for education and other issues when it comes to the Federal Budget...


why on earth is his administration taking such an absurdly huge gamble on some extremely bad choices in such a large portion of this absolutely critical, as i think we can all agree on, and needed stimulus package.

I hate to say that a "defining moment" in his presidency can come so quickly, but this is the most massive stimulus/spending plan in American History.

if we are going to take on this much new debt, and we want to get the economy moving again, investing in absurd things that do not in fact move our economy forward is not exactly a smart move.

This bill is a disgraceful example that it is still very much business as usual, from both sides of the aisle.

the Congressional Budget Office numbers below, section by section, show an absolutely massive social spending bill, not a "stimulus package".

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9968/hr1.pdf


some lowlights:

● $2.8 billion to expand broadband Internet service in rural areas

● $3.0 billion for grants to improve the criminal justice system

● $2.8 billion for grants to extend broadband Internet services

● $20.4 billion for programs administered by the Department of Health and Human Services

● $20.0 billion to renovate elementary and secondary schools;

● $17.6 billion for Pell grants and other student financial assistance and facilities at
post-secondary institutions including federal student loan programs

● $29.1 billon for other education programs aimed particularly at elementary and secondary education.

● $11.1 billion for housing assistance programs administered by HUD; and
● $5.2 billion for grants to states and cities for activities related to community development.



and this is the bill in its entirety, which is nonetheless, a disgrace.

http://www.rules.house.gov/111/LegText/111_hr1_text.pdf

$1 billion for "periodic censuses"
$ 350 million for the "salaries and expenses" for the National telecommunication and information administration.

christ.




obviously, this will probably lead to another republican/democrat argument here, but can we all at least agree, that this plan is utterly critical to our nation, and niggling details aside, this bill should be used to *STIMULATE* the economy, not advance agendas?
 

ledroit

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I totally agree. I think we should cut the fed's interest rates to get capital flowing again.

No, wait a minute. Aren't they about 0% right now? So that won't work.

How about tax cuts for the rich, or more big bonuses to the fat cats?

No, wait a second. That's exactly what got us into this mess. Surplus cash for the rich so they could turn it into fake derivatives and inflated prices.

Hmmm. I think maybe we should do what the rest of the world is doing, for a change, and invest in things that can actually create wealth.

If I'm not mistaken, countries can actually do this, right? Instead of just investing in shock and awe military displays that do nothing except blow up money?

Well, I know that these "shock and awe" military frenzies also make stupid little politicos with no dicks suddenly feel powerful and manly, so I guess that's not nothing. It's a little bit like getting drunk or getting high on drugs. It's a fake, temporary escape from reality.

Hmm. But you can't really make that a way of life. So. What does that leave us with?

I think it's probably time to get back to work, America. Stop your posturing and posing. Produce something valuable. Work can actually be nice therapy when you've had a narcissistic overindulgence of any kind, I think.
 

D_Carroll Condomripper

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Take a basic intro to economics and you will see that investing in education is exactly that, an investment that will result in increased productivity by American workers ...yada yada yada ... larger GDP. Thats just shows you how long it will take to get out of the Bush mess, we are enlisting future graduates lol
 

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Me....i'd completely HALT all imports.{Sorry World....deal with your own situations.}
I'd take that mad money and dump into Our own economy by ramping up production and refurbishing all the factories that used to manufacture everything WE ever needed....Right Here.
I'm tired{and allways have been} of hearing "ITS a GLOBAL ECONOMY"
We have completely gotten our collective ASS's KICKED in that arena.
Most people under the age of 35 do not even KNOW the difference between domestically produced items from Foriegn anymore{Or Care}.
I tell you something else i would do to.....and most here won't like to hear this......I'd fucking re-neg on all of our foreign debt too.....just go ahead CHINA....and try and collect.
As far as i am concerned, the USA does not owe the world a thing.
 

TurkeyWithaSunburn

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I tell you something else i would do to.....and most here won't like to hear this......I'd fucking re-neg on all of our foreign debt too.....just go ahead CHINA....and try and collect.
As far as i am concerned, the USA does not owe the world a thing.
Wait a couple of years til the hyperinflation happens. We'll be a 3rd world country in no time becuase of years of politicians being doo doo heads and not knowing how to think :frown1:
 

Flashy

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I totally agree. I think we should cut the fed's interest rates to get capital flowing again.

No, wait a minute. Aren't they about 0% right now? So that won't work.

I did not suggest we do that

How about tax cuts for the rich, or more big bonuses to the fat cats?

No, wait a second. That's exactly what got us into this mess. Surplus cash for the rich so they could turn it into fake derivatives and inflated prices.

i never suggested that either.

Hmmm. I think maybe we should do what the rest of the world is doing, for a change, and invest in things that can actually create wealth.

Such as? Hmmm...renewable enrgy, solar energy, maglev trains, which i completely support.

repainting schools is not what will help us with those things

so what other things can actually "create wealth"?

we used to have a larger manufacturing sector, but as cheaper foreign workers are able to do the work at a cheaper salary, manufacturing is not the strong base it once was here.

Being a blue collar worker, in an advancing society is a ticket to an eventual deadennd, when those jjobs are either farmed overseas for cheaper, or automated etc.



If I'm not mistaken, countries can actually do this, right? Instead of just investing in shock and awe military displays that do nothing except blow up money?

there is no "shock and awe" military display in this package.

as for the "shock and awe" display, it actually was not very expensive at all...the occupation of the last 6 years is the expensive part.

Well, I know they also make stupid little guys with no dicks suddenly feel powerful and big, so that's not nothing. It's a little bit like getting drunk or getting high on drugs. It's a fake, temporary escape from reality.

whether or not you believed in military action in Iraq or not, the reasons had nothing to do with little guys not having dicks....aside from that, it also has nothing to do with this stimulus package.


Hmm. What does that leave us with?

I think it's probably time to get back to work, America. Stop your posturing and posing. Produce something valuable. Work can actually be nice therapy when you've had a narcissistic overindulgence of any kind, I think.

produce something "valuable"?

Like what? We already produce tons of "valuable" things and are a super exporter in certain industries.

American manufacturing is simply not what it once was, nor will it ever be again. Electronics, Apparel, Automobiles...we lost our edge a long time ago.

even many of our superexport products run at trade deficits,


semiconductors, aircraft, aircraft parts, aircraft engines and parts, organic/inorganic chemicals, plastics/resins, industrial machinery.

are the only industries which have run consistent surpluses in recent years

Cars, computers and their parts, wireless communications/broadcasting, pharmaceuticals, medicinal/botanical substances, heavy machinery/ trucks, telephone parts and appartus, auto parts, Iron/Steel industry have all been running at deficits...


there is plenty of "value" produced here.

the problem is not a question of value. the problem is a question of motivation and willingness. IMO
 

Flashy

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Take a basic intro to economics and you will see that investing in education is exactly that, an investment that will result in increased productivity by American workers ...yada yada yada ... larger GDP. Thats just shows you how long it will take to get out of the Bush mess, we are enlisting future graduates lol

repainting schools and investing in education are very different things though.


I attended an excellent private school, but ultimately, the schools physical plant was not exactly stellar or what contributed to my level of education.

seriously, how good does a classroom have to be for one to learn?

If a student does not work hard enough, or read at a proper grade level, does the new coat of paint on the walls make any difference?

All you really need to make a classroom is four walls, a desk and chair, a blackboard, and a teacher.

Hell, in spring, we used to have class outside on many days, on the lawn. What was nicer then sitting on the lawn with your class, having a discussion about english lit on a beautiful spring day? Ultimately, the learning is what you make of it (IMO)

when the american education system was at its "finest" i guess back in the 1960s and before, classrooms and schools were relatively spartan affairs....

long corridors and hallways with lockers, and relatively spartan rooms, with pictures on the walls and chalkboards, etc. and those seats with the desk attached to them.

ultimately education is about what you want to learn and how hard you want to study, not where you do it...

frankly, in america's classrooms, all you can really expect and that is needed is this:

- A seat with a desk
- Heat in the winter
- Air conditioning in the spring (even that is not necessary)
- Books
- A good teacher


being hooked up to the internet, and computer labs, are a relatively new phenomenon of the last 25 years or so.

Ultimately, student laziness and distraction is what has caused education to fall off IMO.

there were enough distractions when i was in my teens (1980s)...early video games, my stereo, TV etc...

i cannot imagine how tough it is today for kids, when you add in cell phones, texting, computers, online environment...

but ultimately, people must bear the responsibility for their own level of interest and work in education
 

mindseye

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All you really need to make a classroom is four walls, a desk and chair, a blackboard, and a teacher.

As a teacher who's sometimes received exactly that little support from my employer, I can assure you that -- yes, it's a classroom, but don't expect much from it.

You can teach science with just a blackboard, but students learn science better and remember it longer if they get to work with the principles hands-on. Our nation's school's science laboratories are woefully underequipped, and as a result, we're losing high-tech jobs to foreign competitors.

You can teach a foreign language with just a blackboard, but students will have a richer understanding of the language if they can hear it spoken by different people -- men and women of different ages, voices, and inflections -- so audiovisual aids definitely help.

You can teach English with just a blackboard, and your students might learn some grammar, but they won't have access to any of the world's greatest literature (unless, perhaps, it came pre-printed on the blackboard...)

You can teach mathematics with just a blackboard -- and while static drawings might help illustrate basic shapes like triangles and circles, or simple two dimensional graphs like y=3x + 4, students won't fully appreciate the applications of mathematics in motion: how parabolic models apply to ballistics, for example, or how hyperboloidal gears transfer the direction of an applied force.

Republican have underfunded education for ages -- No Child Left Behind made the situation worse, not better, by providing a mechanism for cutting funding from the very schools that are performing worst, hobbling them from making the very improvements to their programs that might enable to them to perform better.

Your overly simplistic approach to what constitutes a classroom is all too prevalent, and that kind of attitude will only succeed in making the next generation's economic situation no better than this one's.
 

BiItalianBro

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Pym: "Me....i'd completely HALT all imports.{Sorry World....deal with your own situations.}"

Makes sense in theory but it was tried 78 years ago with the Smoot-Hawley Act and did not work out so well. In fact it made things worse.

God knows I don't have the answer and i fear that allot of 'experts' dont either as they do not even have a grasp of the problem. Just my pithy .2; I agree that education is a long term investment that has been used as a political football for too many years....and we are paying the price today. The second leg is that yes, the USA does not competitively produce tangible goods...and an economic foundation built on consumption is a foundation built on quicksand. The third corner of the unholy trinity is having a fiat currency that derrives value from the issuance of debt.

This is a crisis that has been simmering long before allot of us were born. In simplistic terms, the 'American Way of Life" has been built on a pyramid scheme, with the buck passed to the next generation, for decades now. It is not limited to a President, or a Congress or a party...it is societal in scope. Where it gets really scary is that the rest of the world, wanting to join in on the party...adopted many of the same practices over the years.....and here we are :confused:
 

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Thanks Flashy... but I tried this another thread.... and kept getting the type of responses above... the, "funding education is a good long term investment".

Ahhhhhh, so it's a 10 year stimulus, not a 10 month stimulus. Guess I was wrong all along.

And how about the parks group w/ an existing 2B budget, getting doubled w/ another 2B. Doubling. That's stimulus? This was a boondoggle to rush in social/earmarked programs plain and simple.
 

faceking

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There's a great soundbite (can't find it anymore) that shows how Obama and Bush use nearly same rhetoric of "fearmongering" a la 'don't ask, just pass, we don't have time'. Curious if anyone knows where that is...

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
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Flashy

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As a teacher who's sometimes received exactly that little support from my employer, I can assure you that -- yes, it's a classroom, but don't expect much from it.

but that is the point...we should expect more from our students, not our classrooms.



You can teach science with just a blackboard, but students learn science better and remember it longer if they get to work with the principles hands-on. Our nation's school's science laboratories are woefully underequipped, and as a result, we're losing high-tech jobs to foreign competitors.

let me say, i am not referring to science students making do without Bunson-burners, beakers, test tubes, safety goggles, and all the important things that have to do with advancing science.

Nowhere did i say that, and i am not disagreeing that science is not imperative for schools.

but for the *VAST* amount of subjects not involved in the actual practice of science, i.e. English, Math, Social Studies, Poetry, etc. there are no physical tools required other than a textbook, a blackboard, a good teacher and interested students.

i am talking about repainting schools, and other such nonsense. much of this bill is not in fact targetted at buying new science gear, but trying to create jobs by changing the physical nature of the school itself...and that is very different...

If our schools are in need of better science gear, i am in your corner...let's address it and get it done...in an *EDUCATION* bill or the budget...*NOT* the most crucial economic stimulus plan of our time to re-invigorate our economy...that is totally different.

making sure 7th grader have the gear to dissect frogs, is not, in fact a vital economic stimulus factor...it is an *EDUCATION* priority.

A 7th grader using a bunson burner or dissecting a frog doesn ot constitute economic stimulus at all.

let's help those kids in an education bill...not in a stimulus package...it is a total waste.

You can teach a foreign language with just a blackboard, but students will have a richer understanding of the language if they can hear it spoken by different people -- men and women of different ages, voices, and inflections -- so audiovisual aids definitely help.

that is not the case. Most students these days can barely handle their first language let alone their second.

Many children today can speak spanish as a first language, and their understanding can come for non-spanish speakers interacting with primary spanish speakers here anyway. I took french for 6 years...not once did i ever have anything more than a good teacher (who was french), a textbook and a desk...even at a very fine private school. If we wanted to have a "richer" understanding, we would get projects where we would go and buy Paris Match magazine, and each of us would select an article to present...or the teacher would bring in some of her records (like Francis Cabrel or Johnny Hallyday)

today, every single one of those kids can go online and read a french article, listen to french music, without needing one more dime from the department of education...

if i had the internet when i was taking french, i would indeed have been exposed to alot more.

these kids can go online for that kind of enrichment.
they can each bring in to class an MP3 of a french song they like, and doubtless one kid in the class or the teacher has an MP3 player or a Laptop, that they can play it outloud for the class on...the government does not need to sponsor that.

hell, my teacher would bring in her own record player to play records for us...are you telling me one kid in the class or the teach can not bring in their MP3 Player with mini speakers? Or that one person does not have laptop on which they could watch streaming news from france etc?

I am sorry, we live in a much different age, and ingenuity in the classroom can be done with ease, without the government.


You can teach English with just a blackboard, and your students might learn some grammar, but they won't have access to any of the world's greatest literature (unless, perhaps, it came pre-printed on the blackboard...)


that is what *BOOKS* are for. I am not suggesting that kids not be given books, for god's sake.

If they want greater access to books, they can go *ONLINE*, something we could never have dreamed o back in the day...

they can go to a *LIBRARY* for other books not on the syllabus...

it is absurd to think they cannot.

I have never suggested kids don't need books. :rolleyes:


You can teach mathematics with just a blackboard -- and while static drawings might help illustrate basic shapes like triangles and circles, or simple two dimensional graphs like y=3x + 4, students won't fully appreciate the applications of mathematics in motion: how parabolic models apply to ballistics, for example, or how hyperboloidal gears transfer the direction of an applied force.

then go *ONLINE* most kids these days have a computer in their house.

None of the greatest mathemeticians in history had anything to work with other than basic pen, paper and a blackboard, etc.

the average kid in 9th grade algebra, who is not going to be a mathemetician or a scientist, who just wants to pass the course, does not need to understand how parabolic models apply to ballistics.


Republican have underfunded education for ages -- No Child Left Behind made the situation worse, not better, by providing a mechanism for cutting funding from the very schools that are performing worst, hobbling them from making the very improvements to their programs that might enable to them to perform better.

i do not care what the republicans have done, ultimately kids choose to learn or choose not to learn.

As i said, i went to one of the finest private schools in the country...and i hated every minute of it. You used to have to do 5-6 hours of homework every night....it was miserable drudgery, and i got B's, with an occasional A and an Occasional C....but when i wanted to learn something that was important to me personally, I pursued it on my own, by reading *After* school, by going to either the school library, or the public library.

I did not have the internet as most of us older folks like you and others here didn't.

In fact, kids today have ten times the advantage we had back then...if they are too lazy to take advantage of it, that is *THEIR* fault.

do you know how many times i was stuck on math, or science, or english etc., where if i could have had a computer with internet and simply pulled up the answers and done research it would have made my life a billion times easier? thousands upon thousands upon thousands of times...and that is the case for most of use folks over 30 or so.


Your overly simplistic approach to what constitutes a classroom is all too prevalent, and that kind of attitude will only succeed in making the next generation's economic situation no better than this one's.

maybe the next generation should work a little harder, stop text messagin and playing video games, and do their homework.

I am not saying schools do not deserve funding, i am saying that *NONE* of this belongs in an *ECONOMIC STIMULUS PACKAGE*, which happens to be one of the most important government spending packages we have needed in some time...

Painting a school is not a wie expenditure in this bill, and you should go back and re-read what i said, since i never suggested spending on education was not important, or needed...

i said it did not *BELONG* in a crucial economic stimulus bill....it belongs in an education bill at a later date. That is all.
 

Flashy

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You finally have an administration that is educated and Pro-Science and this is how you react? Atleast there trying to FIX bushes fuckups!

discussing education while using the wrong usage of "they're", is not exactly making your point.


Fixing fuckups is not the problem and you should realize the problem is that spending on non-stimulus items in a stimulus package is.

Spending on education can be discussed at a later date.

This plan is about saving and revitalizing the economy, not painting schools.
 

Domisoldo

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Isn't it vaguely ironic that much of this old-fashioned pork will end up enriching the very same construction contractors who raped us alive during the housing bubble?
 

mindseye

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but that is the point...we should expect more from our students, not our classrooms.

I say we should expect more from both. You've engaged in a long rant that I'm not going to bother to respond to point-by-point.

But if you're serious about expecting more from students, where are your equally long rants about recruiting teachers who can demand more from students? About moving away from bubble-sheet tests to more integrative evaluation techniques? About reducing class sizes? About raising standards for home-school educators?

You say you went to "one of the finest private schools in the country", that you hated it, and that you found school to be "miserable drudgery". It shows: your spelling and punctuation are atrocious. I usually don't harp on these things*, but it's relevant to this question: If one of the finest private schools in the country couldn't reach you, engage you, and give you a sense of pride in the craft of writing, then what makes you qualified to judge that other schools should be able to reach their students with just the barest minimum of funding and support?

The need for increased funding in education is critical. You argue that this funding won't augment the economy, as if new overhead projectors somehow built themselves, new library books appeared on shelves with the wave of a wand, or the new classroom buildings needed to move students out of trailers would spring fully-formed from the ground. People have to work to provide these things to schools, and so funding for schools will create jobs. Funding for education will immediately augment the economy, because schools have immediate (and dire) needs for spending that money.

*...while I was writing this paragraph, you posted this nitpick about someone else's writing, so now I don't feel so bad for having brought it up.
 
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D_Martin van Burden

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Schools need funding, period. Like it or not, we're in a global economy. If you're that resistant to the idea, then ask your clothing, electronics, communications, technology, automative, and food processing manufacturers to stop building up factories in areas of the world in which they are able to skirt minimum wage and safety laws.

This is coming from a guy who attended a middle school in which plaster regularly fell off the ceiling, threatening to conk one or more of us out. Thankfully, the damage was bad enough for officials to recognize that a new school needed to be built in its place.

For those of you who aren't wowed by needs for upgrading the educational curriculum, let me put it to you this way. Educational funding is down, way down. If you happen to be in a school relatively unfazed by this, you'll do fine; you always will. If you're in a district that has poor educational funding, not only are you bereft of materials and technologies that will help students succeed, but you are also subject to No Child Left Behind which will turn that resource molehill into a mountain of adversity. How about this example? Say, you're studying for the SATs, and you have one student who has access to testing materials and private, local tutors to help prepare for the test. Student B has a beat-up copy of the SAT manual, dated back a few years, with a number of pages missing. Aptitude differences aside, funding would at least even the playing field between the two students.

Because education has been gutted in this country, it affects students from kindergarten through high school. These kids might have dreams to attend college -- hell, nowadays, a Bachelor's degree just doesn't get you as much as it did 10-15 years ago. But if these students were gutted all along the formative years, and funding is tight at the collegiate level, and entrance standards become that more rigourous. If you're really want that axe to grind, then direct your resentment at the kids who had the material backing to bolster their grades, boost their test scores, only to get into college and drop out in a sea of beer and foolishness. Whether you are a gender or ethnic minority, it doesn't matter. If you're poor and had a hell of a time trying to make do in a district where education was expendable, books become a commodity, supplies become a commodity, and self-actualization becomes an uphill struggle.

I'm all for cutting. Just cut the shit that doesn't work, and don't pretend that things work when the advantaged few reap benefits. I don't care if businesses get a tax cut. Their "tax cut" is called "tax evasion." And before you cut education too short, maybe there are students out there who are utterly sapped because music and arts education has been scrapped out, because there aren't any after-school programs to rejuvenate and enliven their minds, and because teachers are so mentally exhausted with a lack of support that they just don't care anymore.