This Stimulus Package is going to be an Absolute Disaster

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Flashy, Jan 30, 2009.

  1. Flashy

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    ...in its current form.

    anyone who thought true "change" was on the way, sorry, but it is business as usual in D.C.

    This is merely a "change" back to incompetent, pork barrel democratic party politics from incompetent pork barrel republican politics.


    I honestly say, as an independent, i believed obama when he said that he was serious about spending money on infrastructure, on new environmental technology, etc...I strongly support that, and i hoped he would follow through on it...but this bill offers absolutely nothing new.

    I honestly believe a stimulus package is both needed and crucial.

    if i had a vote to give Obama, the democrats and the republicans on the right stimulus package, i would absolutely do it, as it is critical...

    but come on...i have now been examining this bill for a couple of days, and and a very substantial portion of it is pure crap.

    Aside from the really ridiculous provisions which have already been struck down thankfully, there are still 100s of billions worth of money that is simply money down the drain...

    This is a critical stimulus package, yet there is nearly $150 billion in education spending in it!!! That is completely insane. What exactly do expenditures on school renovation, Head Start, Special Ed etc. have to do with Stimulus? Nothing.

    They should be in an education bill sometime later and in the federal budget

    This is madness...

    I would be utterly thrilled if Obama and the democrats took that $150 billion in proposed spending over the next two years, and crafted a comprehensive, inovative and massive energy plan with it, designed to modernize our power grid, go solar, improve hydro power, wind power, and fund power and research, as well as begin working on new mass transit soultions involving modernzing bus fleets to electric models, and designing and funding in conjunction with private industry a new Mag-Lev rail system among many other cruical things at this critical juncture...I would be absolutely thrilled, and this would truly create real good jobs, in the construction, operation and research sectors...

    The plan does have some components of that, but not nearly enough.

    this bill as it is, is mostly crap, and it is a disgrace.

    anyone who thought Obama and the democrats would be different from the old democrats, or the old republicans should disavow themselves of that notion right this minute. It is more of the same, in more charismatic packaging.

    I did not vote for him, nor did i vote for McCain.

    But i strongly support a stimulus package, and i honestly support every possible energy initiative, as well as tax cuts/credits for those folks who are really in trouble.

    Head Start does not create good jobs.
    Painting a classroom is not a good job.


    this is bunk, and a disgrace, and not at all a surprise.

    why on earth do people keep voting for these two despicable political machines whose only care is their own hold on power?

    if we are going to spend an extra near 900 billion in debt, and the interest payments and drain it will cause, this damn well better be properly targeted on utterly crucial needs, not bullshit.

    if this package is a fuckup, we will not recover from this for probably close to a decade.

    if this package is a fuckup, it will destroy the Obama presidency.

    Let's face it, for you Obama supporters, if the economy is even worse in 4 years than it is now, with this package having been passed as it is now, he will not be re-elected, because ultimately "It's the economy, stupid" (or a variation on that)

    so, if not for national interest, at least for your own political interests and belief, wouldn't you want this plan to be as absolutely effective as possible?

    There is plenty of time for education and other issues when it comes to the Federal Budget...


    why on earth is his administration taking such an absurdly huge gamble on some extremely bad choices in such a large portion of this absolutely critical, as i think we can all agree on, and needed stimulus package.

    I hate to say that a "defining moment" in his presidency can come so quickly, but this is the most massive stimulus/spending plan in American History.

    if we are going to take on this much new debt, and we want to get the economy moving again, investing in absurd things that do not in fact move our economy forward is not exactly a smart move.

    This bill is a disgraceful example that it is still very much business as usual, from both sides of the aisle.

    the Congressional Budget Office numbers below, section by section, show an absolutely massive social spending bill, not a "stimulus package".

    http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/99xx/doc9968/hr1.pdf


    some lowlights:

    ● $2.8 billion to expand broadband Internet service in rural areas

    ● $3.0 billion for grants to improve the criminal justice system

    ● $2.8 billion for grants to extend broadband Internet services

    ● $20.4 billion for programs administered by the Department of Health and Human Services

    ● $20.0 billion to renovate elementary and secondary schools;

    ● $17.6 billion for Pell grants and other student financial assistance and facilities at
    post-secondary institutions including federal student loan programs

    ● $29.1 billon for other education programs aimed particularly at elementary and secondary education.

    ● $11.1 billion for housing assistance programs administered by HUD; and
    ● $5.2 billion for grants to states and cities for activities related to community development.



    and this is the bill in its entirety, which is nonetheless, a disgrace.

    http://www.rules.house.gov/111/LegText/111_hr1_text.pdf

    $1 billion for "periodic censuses"
    $ 350 million for the "salaries and expenses" for the National telecommunication and information administration.

    christ.




    obviously, this will probably lead to another republican/democrat argument here, but can we all at least agree, that this plan is utterly critical to our nation, and niggling details aside, this bill should be used to *STIMULATE* the economy, not advance agendas?
     
  2. ledroit

    ledroit New Member

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    I totally agree. I think we should cut the fed's interest rates to get capital flowing again.

    No, wait a minute. Aren't they about 0% right now? So that won't work.

    How about tax cuts for the rich, or more big bonuses to the fat cats?

    No, wait a second. That's exactly what got us into this mess. Surplus cash for the rich so they could turn it into fake derivatives and inflated prices.

    Hmmm. I think maybe we should do what the rest of the world is doing, for a change, and invest in things that can actually create wealth.

    If I'm not mistaken, countries can actually do this, right? Instead of just investing in shock and awe military displays that do nothing except blow up money?

    Well, I know that these "shock and awe" military frenzies also make stupid little politicos with no dicks suddenly feel powerful and manly, so I guess that's not nothing. It's a little bit like getting drunk or getting high on drugs. It's a fake, temporary escape from reality.

    Hmm. But you can't really make that a way of life. So. What does that leave us with?

    I think it's probably time to get back to work, America. Stop your posturing and posing. Produce something valuable. Work can actually be nice therapy when you've had a narcissistic overindulgence of any kind, I think.
     
  3. D_Carroll Condomripper

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    Take a basic intro to economics and you will see that investing in education is exactly that, an investment that will result in increased productivity by American workers ...yada yada yada ... larger GDP. Thats just shows you how long it will take to get out of the Bush mess, we are enlisting future graduates lol
     
  4. pym

    pym New Member

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    Me....i'd completely HALT all imports.{Sorry World....deal with your own situations.}
    I'd take that mad money and dump into Our own economy by ramping up production and refurbishing all the factories that used to manufacture everything WE ever needed....Right Here.
    I'm tired{and allways have been} of hearing "ITS a GLOBAL ECONOMY"
    We have completely gotten our collective ASS's KICKED in that arena.
    Most people under the age of 35 do not even KNOW the difference between domestically produced items from Foriegn anymore{Or Care}.
    I tell you something else i would do to.....and most here won't like to hear this......I'd fucking re-neg on all of our foreign debt too.....just go ahead CHINA....and try and collect.
    As far as i am concerned, the USA does not owe the world a thing.
     
  5. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Let me know if anyone needs an umbrella, OK? :rolleyes:
     
  6. TurkeyWithaSunburn

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    Wait a couple of years til the hyperinflation happens. We'll be a 3rd world country in no time becuase of years of politicians being doo doo heads and not knowing how to think :frown1:
     
  7. lucky8

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    2012...
     
  8. Flashy

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  9. Flashy

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    repainting schools and investing in education are very different things though.


    I attended an excellent private school, but ultimately, the schools physical plant was not exactly stellar or what contributed to my level of education.

    seriously, how good does a classroom have to be for one to learn?

    If a student does not work hard enough, or read at a proper grade level, does the new coat of paint on the walls make any difference?

    All you really need to make a classroom is four walls, a desk and chair, a blackboard, and a teacher.

    Hell, in spring, we used to have class outside on many days, on the lawn. What was nicer then sitting on the lawn with your class, having a discussion about english lit on a beautiful spring day? Ultimately, the learning is what you make of it (IMO)

    when the american education system was at its "finest" i guess back in the 1960s and before, classrooms and schools were relatively spartan affairs....

    long corridors and hallways with lockers, and relatively spartan rooms, with pictures on the walls and chalkboards, etc. and those seats with the desk attached to them.

    ultimately education is about what you want to learn and how hard you want to study, not where you do it...

    frankly, in america's classrooms, all you can really expect and that is needed is this:

    - A seat with a desk
    - Heat in the winter
    - Air conditioning in the spring (even that is not necessary)
    - Books
    - A good teacher


    being hooked up to the internet, and computer labs, are a relatively new phenomenon of the last 25 years or so.

    Ultimately, student laziness and distraction is what has caused education to fall off IMO.

    there were enough distractions when i was in my teens (1980s)...early video games, my stereo, TV etc...

    i cannot imagine how tough it is today for kids, when you add in cell phones, texting, computers, online environment...

    but ultimately, people must bear the responsibility for their own level of interest and work in education
     
  10. mindseye

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    As a teacher who's sometimes received exactly that little support from my employer, I can assure you that -- yes, it's a classroom, but don't expect much from it.

    You can teach science with just a blackboard, but students learn science better and remember it longer if they get to work with the principles hands-on. Our nation's school's science laboratories are woefully underequipped, and as a result, we're losing high-tech jobs to foreign competitors.

    You can teach a foreign language with just a blackboard, but students will have a richer understanding of the language if they can hear it spoken by different people -- men and women of different ages, voices, and inflections -- so audiovisual aids definitely help.

    You can teach English with just a blackboard, and your students might learn some grammar, but they won't have access to any of the world's greatest literature (unless, perhaps, it came pre-printed on the blackboard...)

    You can teach mathematics with just a blackboard -- and while static drawings might help illustrate basic shapes like triangles and circles, or simple two dimensional graphs like y=3x + 4, students won't fully appreciate the applications of mathematics in motion: how parabolic models apply to ballistics, for example, or how hyperboloidal gears transfer the direction of an applied force.

    Republican have underfunded education for ages -- No Child Left Behind made the situation worse, not better, by providing a mechanism for cutting funding from the very schools that are performing worst, hobbling them from making the very improvements to their programs that might enable to them to perform better.

    Your overly simplistic approach to what constitutes a classroom is all too prevalent, and that kind of attitude will only succeed in making the next generation's economic situation no better than this one's.
     
  11. B_FruitFly

    B_FruitFly New Member

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    You finally have an administration that is educated and Pro-Science and this is how you react? Atleast there trying to FIX bushes fuckups!
     
  12. BiItalianBro

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    Pym: "Me....i'd completely HALT all imports.{Sorry World....deal with your own situations.}"

    Makes sense in theory but it was tried 78 years ago with the Smoot-Hawley Act and did not work out so well. In fact it made things worse.

    God knows I don't have the answer and i fear that allot of 'experts' dont either as they do not even have a grasp of the problem. Just my pithy .2; I agree that education is a long term investment that has been used as a political football for too many years....and we are paying the price today. The second leg is that yes, the USA does not competitively produce tangible goods...and an economic foundation built on consumption is a foundation built on quicksand. The third corner of the unholy trinity is having a fiat currency that derrives value from the issuance of debt.

    This is a crisis that has been simmering long before allot of us were born. In simplistic terms, the 'American Way of Life" has been built on a pyramid scheme, with the buck passed to the next generation, for decades now. It is not limited to a President, or a Congress or a party...it is societal in scope. Where it gets really scary is that the rest of the world, wanting to join in on the party...adopted many of the same practices over the years.....and here we are :confused:
     
  13. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Flashy... but I tried this another thread.... and kept getting the type of responses above... the, "funding education is a good long term investment".

    Ahhhhhh, so it's a 10 year stimulus, not a 10 month stimulus. Guess I was wrong all along.

    And how about the parks group w/ an existing 2B budget, getting doubled w/ another 2B. Doubling. That's stimulus? This was a boondoggle to rush in social/earmarked programs plain and simple.
     
  14. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    There's a great soundbite (can't find it anymore) that shows how Obama and Bush use nearly same rhetoric of "fearmongering" a la 'don't ask, just pass, we don't have time'. Curious if anyone knows where that is...

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
     
    #14 faceking, Jan 31, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2009
  15. Flashy

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  16. mindseye

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    A "soundbite"? I'm not surprised.

    I've got a soundbite where Bush says he never stops thinking of new ways to harm our country.
     
  17. Flashy

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    discussing education while using the wrong usage of "they're", is not exactly making your point.


    Fixing fuckups is not the problem and you should realize the problem is that spending on non-stimulus items in a stimulus package is.

    Spending on education can be discussed at a later date.

    This plan is about saving and revitalizing the economy, not painting schools.
     
  18. Domisoldo

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    Isn't it vaguely ironic that much of this old-fashioned pork will end up enriching the very same construction contractors who raped us alive during the housing bubble?
     
  19. mindseye

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    I say we should expect more from both. You've engaged in a long rant that I'm not going to bother to respond to point-by-point.

    But if you're serious about expecting more from students, where are your equally long rants about recruiting teachers who can demand more from students? About moving away from bubble-sheet tests to more integrative evaluation techniques? About reducing class sizes? About raising standards for home-school educators?

    You say you went to "one of the finest private schools in the country", that you hated it, and that you found school to be "miserable drudgery". It shows: your spelling and punctuation are atrocious. I usually don't harp on these things*, but it's relevant to this question: If one of the finest private schools in the country couldn't reach you, engage you, and give you a sense of pride in the craft of writing, then what makes you qualified to judge that other schools should be able to reach their students with just the barest minimum of funding and support?

    The need for increased funding in education is critical. You argue that this funding won't augment the economy, as if new overhead projectors somehow built themselves, new library books appeared on shelves with the wave of a wand, or the new classroom buildings needed to move students out of trailers would spring fully-formed from the ground. People have to work to provide these things to schools, and so funding for schools will create jobs. Funding for education will immediately augment the economy, because schools have immediate (and dire) needs for spending that money.

    *...while I was writing this paragraph, you posted this nitpick about someone else's writing, so now I don't feel so bad for having brought it up.
     
    #19 mindseye, Jan 31, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2009
  20. D_Martin van Burden

    D_Martin van Burden Account Disabled

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    Schools need funding, period. Like it or not, we're in a global economy. If you're that resistant to the idea, then ask your clothing, electronics, communications, technology, automative, and food processing manufacturers to stop building up factories in areas of the world in which they are able to skirt minimum wage and safety laws.

    This is coming from a guy who attended a middle school in which plaster regularly fell off the ceiling, threatening to conk one or more of us out. Thankfully, the damage was bad enough for officials to recognize that a new school needed to be built in its place.

    For those of you who aren't wowed by needs for upgrading the educational curriculum, let me put it to you this way. Educational funding is down, way down. If you happen to be in a school relatively unfazed by this, you'll do fine; you always will. If you're in a district that has poor educational funding, not only are you bereft of materials and technologies that will help students succeed, but you are also subject to No Child Left Behind which will turn that resource molehill into a mountain of adversity. How about this example? Say, you're studying for the SATs, and you have one student who has access to testing materials and private, local tutors to help prepare for the test. Student B has a beat-up copy of the SAT manual, dated back a few years, with a number of pages missing. Aptitude differences aside, funding would at least even the playing field between the two students.

    Because education has been gutted in this country, it affects students from kindergarten through high school. These kids might have dreams to attend college -- hell, nowadays, a Bachelor's degree just doesn't get you as much as it did 10-15 years ago. But if these students were gutted all along the formative years, and funding is tight at the collegiate level, and entrance standards become that more rigourous. If you're really want that axe to grind, then direct your resentment at the kids who had the material backing to bolster their grades, boost their test scores, only to get into college and drop out in a sea of beer and foolishness. Whether you are a gender or ethnic minority, it doesn't matter. If you're poor and had a hell of a time trying to make do in a district where education was expendable, books become a commodity, supplies become a commodity, and self-actualization becomes an uphill struggle.

    I'm all for cutting. Just cut the shit that doesn't work, and don't pretend that things work when the advantaged few reap benefits. I don't care if businesses get a tax cut. Their "tax cut" is called "tax evasion." And before you cut education too short, maybe there are students out there who are utterly sapped because music and arts education has been scrapped out, because there aren't any after-school programs to rejuvenate and enliven their minds, and because teachers are so mentally exhausted with a lack of support that they just don't care anymore.
     
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