Thousands at N Ireland peace vigils

jason_els

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Nicely wrote Jason. I have to say from what i've seen of the ORANGEMEN parades through Catholic neighborhoods........religion is part of the toubles for sure. I was a bit more versed back in the 80's when i was more interested in the subject. I think the British military police were the UDA? at the time. Anyhow......one of the best books on the subject that i own is called "IRELAND A TERRIBLE BEAUTY" by Leon and JILL{his wife} URIS. An incredible pictorial history of that country.

Thanks pym!

The Orangemen are following ancient parade routes that haven't changed in 300 years years. What has changed is the character of the neighborhoods through which the roads pass. Some of the neighborhoods are now strongly Republican and yes, strongly Catholic. Keep in mind though, there are Catholic Unionists as there are Protestant Nationalists. Not many, but some. The parades actually celebrate the defeat of James II (Stewart) by William of Orange at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 (hence, Orangemen and the color orange identified as a Unionist color). At the time, the religious difference was a big deal as there was no freedom of religion. People were supposed to be what religion the monarch was. Now the effect isn't so great as both the UK and Ireland allow religious freedom. I'm not saying it isn't there, it's just not the primary factor by a longshot.
 

D_Kissimmee Coldsore

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Thanks pym!

The Orangemen are following ancient parade routes that haven't changed in 300 years years. What has changed is the character of the neighborhoods through which the roads pass. Some of the neighborhoods are now strongly Republican and yes, strongly Catholic. Keep in mind though, there are Catholic Unionists as there are Protestant Nationalists. Not many, but some. The parades actually celebrate the defeat of James II (Stewart) by William of Orange at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690 (hence, Orangemen and the color orange identified as a Unionist color). At the time, the religious difference was a big deal as there was no freedom of religion. People were supposed to be what religion the monarch was. Now the effect isn't so great as both the UK and Ireland allow religious freedom. I'm not saying it isn't there, it's just not the primary factor by a longshot.
It shouldn't be underestimated though. From personal experience with both Northern Irish people of my age at university and Catholics/Protestants I know, the sectarian aspect is huge. You'll hear the Pope and the 'Ra mentioned in the same breath, and it's frightening. Now sure, these are the children of undoubtedly strongly unionist/republican or very religious families but nevertheless, the young yobbish guys growing up in that sort of environment attach the two and they are essentially the pool from which the new recruits to the RIRA/UFF come from.
 

Jason

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We've just had St Patrick's Day, and even President Obama felt moved to talk of his Irish ancestry. The Irish migration of the nineteenth century has meant that many people in America and in Great Britain have Irish ancestors, and on St Patrick's Day eveyone likes to feel a little Irish. It is indeed the day for "the wearing of the green".

But Ireland - all of Ireland - has two distinct traditions, and St Patrick represents only one of them. Unionists - the protestant tradition - are the other one. They are a minority on the island of Ireland but a majority in Northern Ireland. Within the Irish Republic (alone) they are a very small minority, but there are nonetheless Unionist/Protestant communities within the Irish Republic, particularly in the Ulster counties that are not part of Northern Ireland, in Dublin, and in some locations towards the south coast.

The achievement of the Peace Process has been to accommodate both traditions. The future may well lie in forging a brand new tradition.

Tradition in the Irish Republic (and among the Republicans in Northern Ireland) has been built around the image of "The harp that once through Tara's halls...", hearking back to an idealised Celtic golden age. The Unionist tradition has focused on "the sash my father wore" - the orange sashes worn at the battle of the Boyn by supporters of protestant William Prince of Orange. These are potent images, but they are also destructive. We need a new image for Northern Ireland and Ireland embracing both traditions, but also stressing the two communities working together. Curiously the present solidarity between the different communities might just be the beginning of a new tradition. The achievement of former enemies who hate the sight of one another standing together for the cause of peace reflects well on both sides. Northern Ireland is a model - perhaps the only model - of a peace process which broadly seems to have worked. We need this in Israel/Palestine. In Georgia. In Bosnia. In Sri Lanka. In Rwanda. In 101 other places. Northern Ireland leads the way. We need new songs and new legends to reflect this remarkable achievement. We need some new symbol for both sides to paint everywhere (a dove?). We need a new flag that both sides can fly. Perhaps someone could design something.

Most provocatively we also need some form of identity for the British Isles (UK+Irish Republic+Channel Islands + Isle of Man). Geography has always thrown these parts together. We need a British Isles identity which transcends the divides.
 

pym

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Hey Jason{not els} ....i noticed in your brief history of Ireland you did not mention Oliver Cromwell......
Oliver Cromwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In my recollection from casual studies. It would seem the "Troubles" for Ireland started with Him and the total sacking and murderous campainge he led....which led to the Ascendancy. I think the Ascendancy {settled English} are the progenitors of the protestants in the Republic.
I have read varying accounts of Cromwell over the years.....they differ too. I have come to believe that the English tend to gloss over him a bit.
What are your thoughts?
 

Jason

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Hey Jason{not els} ....i noticed in your brief history of Ireland you did not mention Oliver Cromwell......
Oliver Cromwell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In my recollection from casual studies. It would seem the "Troubles" for Ireland started with Him and the total sacking and murderous campainge he led....which led to the Ascendancy. I think the Ascendancy {settled English} are the progenitors of the protestants in the Republic.
I have read varying accounts of Cromwell over the years.....they differ too. I have come to believe that the English tend to gloss over him a bit.
What are your thoughts?

Living memory scarcely goes back before the 1930s, and almost no-one alive today can truly remember what it was like when the whole of Ireland was an integral part of the UK. The events which have shaped the conflict in Northern Ireland and the present peace process are events from the 1960s onwards. Today there is a whole generation of young adults who have no clear memory of the troubles. Give it another decade or two and most people will not remember the troubles. The most powerful source of popular feeling is what has happened to people and their families in the last decade.

Cromwell did some nasty things in Ireland - and in England, Wales and Scotland. He played a part in history as the guy whose faction executed a king and created a republic. But the idea that events that happened eleven or so generations ago explains the recent conflict is just not tenable. People don't live their lives according to what their great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather did. Do you know even the names of any of your ancestors this far back? This is a century plus before the 13 Colonies became independent. Rather both sides of the conflict have found figures from history, myth and legend to justify their view. So Cromwell is presented as a bogey man. The other side see William of Orange as a hero.

By the way the overwhelming majority of protestants in Ireland today are of Scottish descent - not English descent. Their accent is Ulster Scots, ie a Lowland Scottish dialect. The "plantation" of Ulster and other parts of Ireland was almost entirely by Scots. The Protestant Ascendancy was for a couple of centuries a feature of UK politics - the underlying logic was that it was impossible to give allegiance both to the Pope (in his role as a temporal prince) and to the King (of England, Scots and Ireland), and for a very long time there were laws which restricted the ability of Roman Catholics to play a part in public affairs. Yes this was a big issue in Ireland where a majority were RC, but it is not a unique Irish issue.
 

jason_els

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Jason's a godsend on this subject as he understands it so well.

I think it correct to say the modern age of The Troubles that saw the ascendancy of PIRA is what most people think of. Both sides appropriate heroes and symbols from ages ago to reinforce the sense that their side has a glorious history and shall surely prevail. These things serve to extend the conflict, to embed people deeper into it and thus cultivate patriotic furvor.

It's worth noting that when Britain decided to first send troops to Northern Ireland in 1969 following the Battle of the Bogside, both sides welcomed them with open arms. The Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) were distrusted by people on both sides for its partisan factions, disciplinary problems, and the gross mishandling of some unfortunate cases such as the 1968 civil rights marches where unarmed protesters were attacked. The RUC was also completely unprepared for armed violent conflict as it proved in the Bogside. The army seemed the answer.

It was thought the army would restore peace and order. That idea was promptly defenestrated when it became obvious to the republican factions that the army were not going to leave after a few months as had been promised by the British government. This is when Provisional IRA split from the IRA (not the so-called Real IRA) and things went downhill. In 1971, Westminster introduced internment. Internment was the ability of the government to hold whomever, whenever, and for however long the government wanted. In one night over 300 people were picked-up by the black mariahs and disappeared. It was noted that great majority of those interned were republican sympathizers, real or alleged. The protests against the government became huge and some people, again republicans, were killed.

And in light of that came the biggest fuse yet. Peaceful, unarmed republican demonstrators protesting internment marching on January 30, 1972 were fired upon by British troops who believed they were under attack. Inquiries have since suggested that there may have been a lone person who did fire a gun, but it must be noted that PIRA told people not to have weapons and anyone caught with one in the area would face some unsavory consequences. Sinn Fein wanted their peace marches to be peace marches. In any event, a massacre occured and 14 people were killed including children and bystanders. That's known as Bloody Sunday. An independent tribunal, now known as the Widgery Tribunal, found the soldiers largely blameless for shooting at unarmed protesters and yet another nail in the coffin of peace was countersunk as the Widgery Tribunal findings were held in disbelief by a very large population of people on both sides of the conflict who saw it for it was, a whitewash.

If people had been uncommitted up to that point, few were after it. The republicans saw themselves as victims, under the thumb of British forces who appeared to be taking sides in the conflict, and so protested to their homerule government. No use. Home rule was suspended later on in 1972 and northern Ireland came under the direct rule of the British parliament. That act angered many more republicans who now felt as if their political power had been taken away despite the fact that they were British, carried British passports, and paid their taxes to London.

Things just went from bad to worse after that.
 
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Jason's post reminds me of Morrissey's song "Irish Blood, English Heart." Have you heard it?

"I've been dreaming of a time when
The English are sick to death of Labour
And Tories, and spit upon the name of Oliver Cromwell
And denounce this royal line that still salute him
And will salute him forever"
 

jason_els

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Living memory scarcely goes back before the 1930s, and almost no-one alive today can truly remember what it was like when the whole of Ireland was an integral part of the UK. The events which have shaped the conflict in Northern Ireland and the present peace process are events from the 1960s onwards. Today there is a whole generation of young adults who have no clear memory of the troubles. Give it another decade or two and most people will not remember the troubles. The most powerful source of popular feeling is what has happened to people and their families in the last decade.

They do know the history though. Potato famine and, above all, the Black and Tans. When I talk to people about what they remember, they have a special place of hatred in their heart for the Black and Tans who had the power of summary death executions. I think if there's any one thing that drove the pre-60s republicans toward the IRA, it were these (as republicans refer to them) roving death squads.

Thank you for yet another excellent post!