Threat to British Freedom?

[eurotop40]

And the collapse of UBS, paying $780 million in fines for fraud, along with the Swiss government allowing the banking records of Americans to be examined is a sign the Swiss system is? The fact is, Switzerland got greedy and started playing with the derivative market it had traditionally shunned. Switzerland also made a huge mistake by going off the gold standard. Switzerland did one thing very well and it should have stuck to it. Now everyone's banking in Liechtenstein and you're left with wheels of cheese and cuckoo clocks.

You should never have let Phil Gramm into the country.

Careful to throw stones when you live in a glass house.

First of all please distinguish between UBS and the Swiss people. There is a wayyyy big difference. But of course UBS has become greedy, we are constantly told we have to do like the americans who have solely the recipe for success and happiness on earth.

 

[jason_els]

First of all please distinguish between UBS and the Swiss people. There is a wayyyy big difference. But of course UBS has become greedy, we are constantly told we have to do like the americans who have solely the recipe for success and happiness on earth.

And if all your friends told you to jump off the George Washington Bridge, that's a reason to do it? Ignore what the US and the EU tells you to do. Switzerland's independence and neutrality are the secret to its success. I hope the Swiss people realize this and demand a return to stricter banking regulations and privacy. The world needs one decent place to hide its money and I don't mean some silly banana republic in the Caribbean. The IMF and IBS will do everything in their power to bring Switzerland under its thumb. Don't let them or you'll lose your treasured independence and neutrality.

 

[deleted213967]

Don't let them or you'll lose your treasured independence and neutrality.

I take it you despise the IRS too...:biggrin1:

 

[D_Mansworthy Meatwrench III]

If you are not connected to the continental USA....
And you do not own nuclear weapons...
Or a military that at LEAST scares Canada...

Then nobody cares.
But give me my money I have banked with you "legally" first.
I have a shitload of Mason jars to bury now....
Thanks a lot, man.

Anybody got a backhoe for rent?

 

[eurotop40]

Switzerland's independence and neutrality are the secret to its success. I hope the Swiss people realize this and demand a return to stricter banking regulations and privacy. ...The IMF and IBS will do everything in their power to bring Switzerland under its thumb. Don't let them or you'll lose your treasured independence and neutrality.

Well, Jason, that's also what I hope. But at the moment it's only hope because we are under constant pressure from all sides.

 

[jason_els]

Well, Jason, that's also what I hope. But at the moment it's only hope because we are under constant pressure from all sides.

I know. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[798686]

Indeed it is very hard to see how a single currency can work without a single economic policy and a single government, and the whole Euro project seems to have strengthening the EU as a necessary consequence.

Exactly. It was designed primarily as a political venture for uniting Europe - and ex-Commission Chief Romano Prodi spelt it out very clearly by saying:

"(it is) not economic at all. It is a completely political step...the historical significance of the euro is to construct a bipolar economy in the world. The two poles are the dollar and the euro. That is the political meaning of the single European Currency. It is a step beyond which there will be others. The euro is just an antipasto."
[CNN Interview - January 1, 2002]

It can't work well without a single economic policy and government, and this is what's gradually happening by degrees. Common tax base is the next thing they're attempting to bring into being.

 

[eurotop40]

It can't work well without a single economic policy and government, and this is what's gradually happening by degrees. Common tax base is the next thing they're attempting to bring into being.

In Switzerland we have a Confederation of 26 States that are extremely autonomous (basically only the Army and the currency is federal) also in legislation, judicial system and fiscal matter (taxation changes even from town to town within each Swiss Canton), we speak 4 different languages and have 4 different cultures that are nonetheless becominge more and more geographically interlaced. Still, we have the Swiss Franc which works just fine.

 

[eurotop40]

As to freedom and democracy, please consider these pages:
Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Freedom House - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[jason_els]

Good of Switzerland to finally (1991 was it?) let women vote in all the cantons. Do they still do the sword voting thing?

 

[eurotop40]

Good of Switzerland to finally (1991 was it?) let women vote in all the cantons. Do they still do the sword voting thing?

You see how many countries advocate for themselves a high standard of freedom, democracy etc. when they do not realize that maybe they are not that free altogether. I am glad you picked this example. Long before 1971 (the year in which women got the right to vote at federal level) the Swiss have always been proud of being the land of true democracy just because we have this referendum and initiative system. But how democratic and free is a country in which half of the adult population is excluded from the political process? Now that also women are full political beings also in Switzerland, direct democracy is one of the reasons why many political parties say that we should not join the EU. This excuse was there also before 1971.

 

[Jason]

As to freedom and democracy, please consider these pages:
Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Freedom House - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Interesting lists. I note that several eastern European EU countries are listed as "flawed democracies". It hardly helps EU democracy that these are now contributing substantial numbers of MEPs.

It is a real challenge for the UK Conservatives when in order to avoid being a part of the monolithic Grand Alliance they are forced by EU parliament rules to join up with MEPs from other countries, which means they are forced to do business with some odd people from flawed democratic systems. And of course it is so easy for the press and everyone else to criticise.

The EU parliament is close to being a single party parliament, with the Grand Alliance as the single party. Anyone who disagrees with the Grand Alliance is marginalised, treated as a nut-case, excluded. The Grand Alliance is pushing through the Lisbon Treaty without a referendum of the people of Europe, knowing full well the people of Europe would reject it. Once through the Grand Alliance has greatly enhanced power, which is not founded on a functioning democracy. In most EU countries most people vote for parties that end up sitting in the Grand Alliance as a result of a grand stitch up by the Eurocrats. We aren't yet into the territory of a failed democracy but we are firmly in the territory of a democratic deficit. At the moment the tide is running strongly in the direction of giving greater power to the Grand Alliance (presumed first president Tony Blair as a reward for delivering up Britain) and moving further away from democracy.

Most people in Britain and I think in Europe too react with boredom to European politics. We are sleep-walking into a non-democratic authoritarian disaster zone.

 

[jason_els]

Save for the Helvetic Republic, Switzerland's democracy has held it safe while the rest of the world was going a bit nuts. I think joining the EU would be a mistake simply because the EU is turning into a Goliath of regulations, laws, and impenetrable bureaucracies. Europe needs at least one stable, modern, geographically safe, and fully-functioning country outside of the EU to act as a pseudo Hong Kong free of EU regulation. It's a very prosperous choice to make. Let's face it, the only other countries are the microstates which don't have the infrastructure to handle the advanced economic needs of corporations and individuals who wish to operate in an off-shore capacity. Switzerland has seen Europe rise from the middle ages, go through the ravages of war, descend, and ascend again, with relatively little problem. Switzerland is an island but it is not isolated from the rest of the world and if you can have the best of both worlds, why not keep both?

 

[798686]

In Switzerland we have a Confederation of 26 States that are extremely autonomous (basically only the Army and the currency is federal) also in legislation, judicial system and fiscal matter (taxation changes even from town to town within each Swiss Canton), we speak 4 different languages and have 4 different cultures that are nonetheless becominge more and more geographically interlaced. Still, we have the Swiss Franc which works just fine.

Dude - I don't think it's really comparable. The EU is made up of 27 nations with over 480 million people. The geographical area, variety of cultures and economic problems are that diverse that one currency and set of economic rules cant possibly hope to cater for all of them (without a single economic and political government).

Switzerland is a relatively small area with only a certain number of potential differences. The economic trends couldn't possibly be that diverse within that small region as to prevent the single Swiss Franc from working. It's just not the same as the whole EU area.

 

[eurotop40]

Dude - I don't think it's really comparable. The EU is made up of 27 nations with over 480 million people. The geographical area, variety of cultures and economic problems are that diverse that one currency and set of economic rules cant possibly hope to cater for all of them (without a single economic and political government).

Switzerland is a relatively small area with only a certain number of potential differences. The economic trends couldn't possibly be that diverse within that small region as to prevent the single Swiss Franc from working. It's just not the same as the whole EU area.

Yes and no. Nowadays you can laugh about the size of Switzerland, given fast transportation, the Alpine tunnels, phones, TV etc. Still, this system has been working for over 150 years (modern Switzerland was founded in 1848). Moving around Switzerland 100 years ago was similar to moving around Europe nowadays. Also economic policies are not something that has been existing for 10 years or so.

 

[798686]

Yes and no. Nowadays you can laugh about the size of Switzerland, given fast transportation, the Alpine tunnels, phones, TV etc.

Wasn't meaning to laugh about the size of Switzerland - I live in Wales myself, which is a very small country.

Was just saying I dont think the area is comparable to the whole EU in terms of differing economic stresses, etc.

 

[eurotop40]

No offense taken!

 

[Jason]

Switzerland being to the EU what Hong Kong is to China - an interesting concept.

 

[eurotop40]

Switzerland being to the EU what Hong Kong is to China - an interesting concept.

Well, it is a bit strange, agreed. But what about Delaware to the US and Jersey to the UK?

 

[jason_els]

Well, it is a bit strange, agreed. But what about Delaware to the US and Jersey to the UK?

Delaware is just another state. It has no corporate taxes and a very pro-business government complete with a court system exclusively for business disputes. Other than that, it's fully within the ability to be regulated by the federal government as any other state.

The US's main off-shore domicile is Bermuda and that has made Bermuda extremely wealthy with the highest per-capita income in the western hemisphere. There are others such as The Cayman Islands or The Bahamas, but they frankly don't offer quite the stability or security that Bermuda does. Corporations and individuals alike want to see their assets someplace very stable, prosperous, democratic, and not subject to coups or banana dictatorships. The Caymans have had political scandals, attracts drug dealer money, and The Bahamas are full of drug dealers. Bermuda is sane, convenient, rich, and under the full umbrella of British protection. It's a great deal for Bermuda and the Americans. On top of that, Bermuda's a great place to do business. It doesn't get terribly hot, is off the path of most hurricanes, you can enjoy a wonderful vacation when you go to visit your money or hold board meetings, and it's only 2 hours from New York.

What none of them have are the strength of secrecy laws which Switzerland recently had nor did any of them have a gold-backed currency as a hedge against inflation, which is now rampantly bordering on hyperinflation. The Eurorich may want to live in Monaco, but they prefer to bank in Switzerland. In the process, Switzerland has made itself very rich with one of the highest standards of living in the world all the while avoiding political quagmires and wars. If the system works, why screw with it just because of outside pressure? The EU might be able to pressure Liechtenstein and that country is still close to being an absolute monarchy where its laws could change at the whim of the Prince. It's business-friendly now, but there's no assurance of that continuing nor does Liechtenstein have the political presence to assure its prosperity in the face of defiance. Switzerland is large enough that it can. Nobody is going to embargo the Swatch Group or Novartis or cheese.