tibetan uprising

kalipygian

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This is not just about religion, it's about politics. The D.L. is a political leader. Just out of curiosity, are there any Americans that would support a 'Free Alaska' or 'Free Hawaii"?

There are minority independence movements in each, they would not get a majority in a popular vote.

There is an Alaskan Independence Party, their view is that the ballot for the statehood referendum, by the UN charter, should have included an option for independence as well. They have candidates on the ballot at each election.(they are mostly right wing survivalist flakes) There was one governor elected who ran under their banner, he was a former governor and a Republican.

Alaskan Independence Party

I would be glad for Alaska to secede from the US and join Canada, perhaps nationalizing Exxon on the way.

The 1893 overthrow of the independent Hawaiian monarchy under Queen Lili'ou Kalani by a minority of American businessmen, and it's subsequent annexation by the US was entirely illegal. Today the percentage of people of even part native Hawaiian ancestry is small. It is hard to know what is fair, they should be included at least in the free medical care provided to Native Americans by the Indian Health Service.

Hawaiian sovereignty movement: Information and Much More from Answers.com

A better comparison might be to Puerto Rico, they have had the opportunity to vote to become independent, to become a state, or to remain a commonwealth.(an internally self governing territory)

China is a colonial occupier in Tibet.
 

SteveHd

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I am in support of a full scale boycott of Chinese products. Not only will I not watch the ''games'', I will boycott the sponsors (Canadian or other) and their products and will encourage others to do so.
I admire your sentiment but I can't see a such a boycott as being realistic. I feel bad for the people of Tibet but I've "written off" any likelihood of redress. I'm not being purposely callous, just realistic.

Most countries tend to reject outside meddling and even dislike outside advice. Here in USA, even though I don't like the "camp" at Guantanamo Bay, I get pissed off at foreigners demanding that we should close it.
 

kalipygian

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According to a story reported (in what is still tomorrow's edition here) of the online (London) Times, Gordon Brown has said he has obtained agreement with the PM of the PRC to dialogue with the Dalai Lama.

I will believe that when it actually happens.

The British PM will also be meeting HH when he is in London in May.

Http://www.phayul.com
 

Gonzo3

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Tibet: it takes two to start a propaganda war






With no foreign journalists allowed into Tibet, the Western media must rely on statements released by the Chinese government and the Tibetan government in exile (currently in India). The trouble is that neither can verify the claims they are making.
What we know for sure is that the wave of popular dissent has spread from the city of Lhasa beyond the Tibetan plateaux. Cameraphone footage of violent riots in Gansu province and reports of deaths in Sichuan and Qinghai unnerved Beijing to the extent that Prime Minister Wen Jiabao went on TV to accuse the Dalai Lama and his 'clique' of orchestrating the violence.
Admissions of domestic turmoil are rare on state television; the government is keen to paint the uprising in their own colours before 1.3bn Chinese people are able to come to their own


conclusions.
On the other side of the propaganda divide, organisations such as Students for a Free Tibet back up claims made by the Dalai Lama's exiled government that the number killed in the protests far exceeds Beijing's figure of 16 so far. Photographs of Tibetans with bullet holes in their necks have been distributed and used as evidence that hundreds have been killed by Chinese troops.
Although there is little doubt China is prepared to use lethal force to settle the matter, the media are wrong to depict the Tibetans only as hapless victims: films showing sword-wielding Tibetan mobs mugging Han Chinese (as well as Muslims) provoked the Dalai Lama to say he would 'quit' if the violence continued.
China's main concern is that the unrest will drag on through to the Olympics in August. Gordon Brown said on Wednesday that Wen Jiabao had previously told him he is open to a dialogue with the Dalai Lama - an unprecedented idea which may represent China's only bloodless path to a successful summer Games.
 

PussyWellington

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If anyone is interested in a different historical perspective of Tibet, read the article entitled "Friendly Feudalism - Tibet Myth" by Michael Parenti.

Quote:

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]T[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]o welcome the end of the old feudal theocracy in Tibet is not to applaud everything about Chinese rule in that country. This point is seldom understood by today’s Shangri-La believers in the West. The converse is also true: To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal régime. Tibetans deserve to be perceived as actual people, not perfected spiritualists or innocent political symbols. “To idealize them,” notes Ma Jian, a dissident Chinese traveler to Tibet (now living in Britain), “is to deny them their humanity.”65 [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]One common complaint among Buddhist followers in the West is that Tibet’s religious culture is being undermined by the Chinese occupation. To some extent this seems to be the case. Many of the monasteries are closed, and much of the theocracy seems to have passed into history. Whether Chinese rule has brought betterment or disaster is not the central issue here. The question is what kind of country was old Tibet. What I am disputing is the supposedly pristine spiritual nature of that pre-invasion culture. We can advocate religious freedom and independence for a new Tibet without having to embrace the mythology about old Tibet. Tibetan feudalism was cloaked in Buddhism, but the two are not to be equated. In reality, old Tibet was not a Paradise Lost. It was a retrograde repressive theocracy of extreme privilege and poverty, a long way from Shangri-La.[/FONT]

Friendly Fuedalism - The Tibet Myth

Friendly Fuedalism - The Tibet Myth
 

dong20

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According to a story reported (in what is still tomorrow's edition here) of the online (London) Times, Gordon Brown has said he has obtained agreement with the PM of the PRC to dialogue with the Dalai Lama.

I will believe that when it actually happens.

The British PM will also be meeting HH when he is in London in May.

Http://www.phayul.com

I'm not sure what you mean by "he has obtained agreement with the PM of the PRC to dialogue"? The British PM doesn't require anyone's agreement to meet the Dalal Lama, except the Dalai Lama's of course. Perhaps as a diplomatic courtesy.

The PRC would be very unlikely to agree to it any way in the sense we mean to agree. Given the PRC referred to the Dalai Lama as 'a wolf in monk's clothing' I imagine it would seriously chap their ass for Brown to even suggesting meeting him - remember Merkel's meeting with him last year? Besides, it's not an additional meeting, the meeting in May will be on his May visit.

Tibetans are allegedly being forced to denounce the Dalai Lama as a monster, perhaps this is the 'leniency' promised by Beijing. Puts me in mind of Kang Kek Iew (aka Comrade Duch).

Tibet: China 'ready for for talks with Dalai Lama' - Times Online
 

Gonzo3

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If anyone is interested in a different historical perspective of Tibet, read the article entitled "Friendly Feudalism - Tibet Myth" by Michael Parenti.

Quote:

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]T[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]o welcome the end of the old feudal theocracy in Tibet is not to applaud everything about Chinese rule in that country. This point is seldom understood by today’s Shangri-La believers in the West. The converse is also true: To denounce the Chinese occupation does not mean we have to romanticize the former feudal régime. Tibetans deserve to be perceived as actual people, not perfected spiritualists or innocent political symbols. “To idealize them,” notes Ma Jian, a dissident Chinese traveler to Tibet (now living in Britain), “is to deny them their humanity.”65 [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]One common complaint among Buddhist followers in the West is that Tibet’s religious culture is being undermined by the Chinese occupation. To some extent this seems to be the case. Many of the monasteries are closed, and much of the theocracy seems to have passed into history. Whether Chinese rule has brought betterment or disaster is not the central issue here. The question is what kind of country was old Tibet. What I am disputing is the supposedly pristine spiritual nature of that pre-invasion culture. We can advocate religious freedom and independence for a new Tibet without having to embrace the mythology about old Tibet. Tibetan feudalism was cloaked in Buddhism, but the two are not to be equated. In reality, old Tibet was not a Paradise Lost. It was a retrograde repressive theocracy of extreme privilege and poverty, a long way from Shangri-La[/FONT]

Friendly Fuedalism - The Tibet Myth

Friendly Fuedalism - The Tibet Myth
..............................Ditto.:rolleyes:
 

dong20

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..............................Ditto.:rolleyes:

Yes, but false notions of a 'paradise lost' isn't the issue. The issue is one of China riding roughshod over Tibetan sovereignty, and following that up by decades of cultural subversion. As I know I have already said.

It's not been an unilateral catalogue of doom for the average Tibetan especially those in rural areas. I doubt few, aside from the 'let's jump on the 'FREE TIBET'" crowd, would argue otherwise. But a few 'rights' do not negate a massive 'wrong'.
 

kalipygian

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I'm not sure what you mean by "he has obtained agreement with the PM of the PRC to dialogue"? The British PM doesn't require anyone's agreement to meet the Dalal Lama, except the Dalai Lama's of course. Perhaps as a diplomatic courtesy.

The PRC would be very unlikely to agree to it any way in the sense we mean to agree. Given the PRC referred to the Dalai Lama as 'a wolf in monk's clothing' I imagine it would seriously chap their ass for Brown to even suggesting meeting him - remember Merkel's meeting with him last year? Besides, it's not an additional meeting, the meeting in May will be on his May visit.

Tibetans are allegedly being forced to denounce the Dalai Lama as a monster, perhaps this is the 'leniency' promised by Beijing. Puts me in mind of Kang Kek Iew (aka Comrade Duch).

Tibet: China 'ready for for talks with Dalai Lama' - Times Online

The story (the link I posted went to the same story as the one you posted, but by a different route) reported that the British PM had announced that he had gotten the PM of the PRC to agree to dialogue with the Dalai Lama, I did not say that Gordon Brown said he had sought permission from the PRC to meet the Dalai Lama himself. That would would have been clear enough if someone read the linked report.

The railroad that has been built which connects Llhasa with the Chinese rail network enables rapid military deployment by the red army as well as exploitation of Tibet's extensive mineral, timber, and water resources. They plan on massive mining development. It also facilitates settlement of Chinese in Tibet. The Tibetians fear the same fate as Mongolians, becoming a minority in their own country. They are already a minority in their capitol and holy city.

Southeast Tibet, next to Arunachal Pradesh and Burma is rain forest.

All the major rivers of south Asia originate in Tibet. The Indus, Yarlung Tsangpo/Brahmaputra, Salween, Mekong, Yangtse, and Yalu.

The PRC has plans to build a dam on the Brahmaputra near the border with India that is supposed to produce more hydropower than the infamous three gorges dam. They also have plans to divert the waters northward to the dryer parts of China and Chinese Turkestan.
Without the agreement of the Tibetian people or the people downstream in India, Bangla Desh, Burma, Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam.

The Chinese have an extremely poor environmental record.

The Himalayas are very seismically active.

The official Tibetan viewpoint on their colonial exploitation:

Tibet 2000: Environment and Development Issues

China - India clash over Chinese claims to Tibetan water:

Japan Focus
 

dong20

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The story (the link I posted went to the same story as the one you posted, but by a different route) reported that the British PM had announced that he had gotten the PM of the PRC to agree to dialogue with the Dalai Lama, I did not say that Gordon Brown said he had sought permission from the PRC to meet the Dalai Lama himself. That would would have been clear enough if someone read the linked report.

I read the article. The stories are not at all the same, although they are related by general topic. That would have been clear if someone read the linked reports::biggrin1:

PM's pledge to meet Dalai Lama draws Beijing's ire | Politics | guardian.co.uk
Gordon Brown will meet Dalai Lama in London - www.phayul.com

I posted the other articles because they were both more detailed and added context to some points I was making.

As of the 'permission' - it was implied. What you wrote was:

...Gordon Brown has said he has obtained agreement with the PM of the PRC to dialogue with the Dalai Lama.

Well, I'm sorry to me that reads like implied permission. It may not have been what you meant but that's how it comes across.

The 'agreement' was by Brown to the Dalai Lama after a demand he do so from the leader of the opposition. Also, if you knew the two stories where similar (and therefore there was only the one meeting), why did you write: "The British PM will also be meeting HH when he is in London in May." ?

The also was why I commented, because in conjunction with 'agreement' I wondered if you had misunderstood the sitution. It's no big deal.

The railroad that has been built which connects Llhasa with the Chinese rail network enables rapid military deployment by the red army as well as exploitation of Tibet's extensive mineral, timber, and water resources.

The railway ran out at Golmud when I went! From there I took a very slow, very cold and rattly old bus. It took 30hrs to get to Lhasa. :cool:
 

B_Nick4444

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where is the USA's moral leadership?
why is the EU taking the lead there?


West protests as China threatens Tibetans
  • Story Highlights
  • NEW: Hundreds protest at China's embassy in London following Beijing's threats
  • China's state-run paper earlier declared intention to crush Tibetan uprisings
  • Chinese government releases list of "Most Wanted" protesters
  • European Parliament president suggests Olympic boycott if violence continues
(CNN) -- China's threats to crush the Tibetan uprisings were followed by protests in Britain and India on Saturday, while European politicians again raised the prospect of boycotting the Beijing Olympics if violence continues.
The Communist Party's flagship newspaper People's Daily urged "the shattering of the conspiracy and sabotaging activities of the 'Tibet independence' forces" on Saturday.
Beijing also released a "Most Wanted" list of 21 protesters as it seeks to quell the largest challenge to China's control of the region since the 1959 uprising.
But in London, hundreds of people protested outside China's embassy in a gathering organized by the Free Tibet Campaign, among other activist groups.
"The Chinese are worried about their public image, their global image at the Olympics. We're worried about lives," Chonpel Tsering, a Tibetan who has lived in London since 1982, told The Associated Press.
"We know some have been killed and hundreds, perhaps thousands have been arrested."
Campaigner Matt Whitticase told AP that the protesters want the British government to force China to allow the Red Cross and the United Nations into Tibet.
He said the organizations should be allowed to give medical treatment to those hurt in the violence, and to objectively report on what was happening there.
Campaigners also want China to lift its ban on allowing foreign journalists into Tibet.
MP Kate Hoey, of Britain's ruling Labour party, was expected to address the demonstration when the march ended in Trafalgar Square, alongside the chairman of the Tibetan community in the UK, Sonam Frasi, and former political prisoner Ngawang Sangdrol.
Meanwhile, the president of the European Union's Parliament said Saturday that the region's countries should not rule out threatening China with an Olympic boycott if violence continues in Tibet.
"Beijing must decide itself, it should immediately negotiate with the Dalai Lama," Hans-Gert Poettering told Germany's Bild am Sonntag newspaper.
"If there continue to be no signals of compromise, I see boycott measures as justified."
France's foreign minister Bernard Kouchner has already this month backtracked from his suggestion of a boycott of the Olympics' opening ceremonies, saying that some economic decisions must be made "at the expense of human rights."
The games will be staged from August 8-24.
On Saturday in Dharmsala -- the seat of headquarters of Tibet's government-in-exile -- hundreds of protesters carrying Tibetan and Indian flags marched through the streets of the northern city to pledge their support to the Dalai Lama and voice their disapproval of China's crackdown in the region.
Many of the roughly 500 protesters were local Indian businessmen, shouting slogans like "Keep fighting Tibetans" and "Long Live the Dalai Lama."
"India has had a long relationship with Tibetans," Ram Swarup, a prominent local businessman, told AP. "We are concerned about what's happening in Tibet and are here to show our solidarity to the Tibetan people."
Beijing has smothered Tibetan areas with troops, cracking down after March 10 protests marking the anniversary of a failed uprising against Chinese rule turned violent four days later.
Beijing's official death toll from the rioting is now 22, but the Dalai Lama's government-in-exile has said 99 Tibetans have been killed.
The protests, which started in Lhasa on the March 10 anniversary of a failed uprising against Chinese rule, turned violent four days later and touched off demonstrations among Tibetans in three other provinces.
Beijing has portrayed the protests as having been instigated by supporters of the exiled Tibetan leader, the Dalai Lama.
"We must see through the secessionist forces' evil intentions, uphold the banner of maintaining social stability ... and resolutely crush the 'Tibet independence' forces' conspiracy," the People's Daily said in an editorial.
However, the United States on Friday joined the debate, with House of Representatives Speaker Nancy Pelosi -- a Democrat -- her support to the Tibetan cause on a visit to the Dalai Lama at his headquarters.
AP reported that she called China's crackdown "a challenge to the conscience of the world" and dismissed Beijing's claim that the Dalai Lama was behind the fighting as making "no sense." http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/tabs/video.gifWatch Pelosi speak out against China's actions in Tibet »
In response to worldwide criticism, Beijing has begun releasing tallies of statements of support from foreign governments and trying to get its version of events before the international community.
On Friday, authorities intensified a manhunt for 21 people accused of violence, posting their photos on major Internet portals.
The suspects are accused of endangering national security, and cited for beating, smashing, looting and arson. One was shown wielding a long sword, and another was a mustached man who had been shown on news programs slashing another with a foot-long blade.
Outside of Lhasa, Beijing has deployed troops across a wide area of western China, where more than half of China's 5.4 million Tibetans live, AP reported.
 

kalipygian

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A slight clarification of the media reports of the Dalai Lama's 'threat to resign', from his own homepage: (Does Jesus have a homepage? Sure would settle a lot of things:wink:)

CLARIFICATION

For those who don't follow the link, he asks reporters to not quote him out of context. Fifteen years ago he said that if a majority of the people of Tibet took up violence, he would cease to be their spokesperson to the world.

I've been reading a biography of HH; 'In Exile From the Land of the Snows', by John F. Avedon. My respect for him keeps growing.
 

SpeedoGuy

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where is the USA's moral leadership?

Asleep at the wheel, it would seem.

To my knowledge, no one in Washington has done anything more than mildly admonish China about the recent unrest and crackdown in Tibet. This, of course, is akin to waving a hanky in the face of tyranosaurus rex.

It'll be interesting to see if the EU follows through with its threats to boycott the Olympics.
 

Quite Irate

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This is one of those debates. My contribution is this: raise your hand if you've been to Tibet. If you're not raising your hand, don't post.