Time for a Nancy Pelosi vindication thread? Looks like the CIA misled Congress

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Jul 12, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    I wonder where the darling Trinity is. For weeks and weeks "she" was posting link after link "proving" that Pelosi and dems "knew" about the CIA torture tactics, "were briefed on" waterboarding and other sundry Guantanamo programs... and Trinity spit on Nancy Pelosi, figuratively speaking, all while glorifying the dick Cheney.


    And now it is revealed...


    From the New York Times,

    Cheney Linked to CIA Concealment


    July 11, 2009

    The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency’s director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.

    The report that Mr. Cheney was behind the decision to conceal the still-unidentified program from Congress deepened the mystery surrounding it, suggesting that the Bush administration had put a high priority on the program and its secrecy.

    Mr. Panetta, who ended the program when he first learned of its existence from subordinates on June 23 {2009}, briefed the two intelligence committees about it in separate closed sessions the next day.

    Efforts to reach Mr. Cheney through relatives and associates were unsuccessful.

    The question of how completely the C.I.A. informed Congress about sensitive programs has been hotly disputed by Democrats and Republicans since May, when Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused the agency of failing to reveal in 2002 that it was waterboarding a terrorism suspect, a claim Mr. Panetta rejected.

    The law requires the president to make sure the intelligence committees “are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity.” But the language of the statute, the amended National Security Act of 1947, leaves some leeway for judgment, saying such briefings should be done “to the extent consistent with due regard for the protection from unauthorized disclosure of classified information relating to sensitive intelligence sources and methods or other exceptionally sensitive matters.”

    In addition, for covert action programs, a particularly secret category in which the role of the United States is hidden, the law says that briefings can be limited to the so-called Gang of Eight, consisting of the Republican and Democratic leaders of both houses of Congress and of their intelligence committees.

    The disclosure about Mr. Cheney’s role in the unidentified C.I.A. program comes a day after an inspector general’s report underscored the central role of the former vice president’s office in restricting to a small circle of officials knowledge of the National Security Agency’s program of eavesdropping without warrants, a degree of secrecy that the report concluded had hurt the effectiveness of the counterterrorism surveillance effort.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/us/politics/12intel.html

    --------------------


    From the Associated Press:


    WASHINGTON — CIA Director Leon Panetta has terminated a “very serious” covert program the spy agency kept secret from Congress for eight years, Rep. Jan Schakowsky, a House Intelligence subcommittee chairwoman, said Friday.


    “The program is a very, very serious program and certainly deserved a serious debate at the time and through the years,” Schakowsky said. “But now it’s over.”

    Under the National Security Act, Congress must, with rare exceptions, be informed of covert activities.

    Democrats revealed late Tuesday that CIA Director Leon Panetta had informed members of the House Intelligence Committee on June 24 that the spy agency had been withholding important information about a secret intelligence program begun after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

    Schakowsky described Panetta as “stunned” that he had not been informed of the program until nearly five months into his tenure as director.

    --------------------


    Let's reiterate:

    The CIA withheld information about a "very serious" secret counterterrorism program FOR EIGHT YEARS ON DIRECT ORDERS FROM FORMER VP DICK CHENEY -- all according to CIA Director Leon Panetta. And, by law, the CIA must disclose (for debate) the covert programs to leaders of both houses of Congress (as a form of "oversight").

    Which means the dick Cheney circumvented the law.

    And, oh, big surprise!, after weeks of making the rounds on every conceivable television news program (along with daughter Liz), suddenly both Cheneys are "unavailable for comment".
     
  2. Flashy

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  3. vince

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    Yes. I will not be surprised if Cheney was involved in duping Congress. I hope the old fart winds up in jail.

    However I think is a separate and until now, unknown program. It is not the torture policy that Nancy Pelosi claims to have been lied to about.
     
  4. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    From Politico.com:


    Jan Schakowsky: Dick Cheney's program validates Nancy Pelosi



    A top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee says the charge that then Vice President Dick Cheney ordered the concealment of an eight-year covert spy program from Congress offered validation for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.).


    “It certainly confirms her characterization of the level of openness the intelligence community and the CIA have given to Congress,” Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.) told POLITICO Saturday evening.


    Pelosi has come under fire from critics after asserting earlier this year that the CIA had misled her on its use of controversial water-boarding practices.


    In an article posted on its website Saturday, the New York Times reported that CIA Director Leon Panetta notified House and Senate intelligence committee members that Cheney ordered the concealment of a surveillance program from Congress.

    The article, sourcing the claim to "two people with direct knowledge of the matter," follows on the heels of reports last week that Panetta had told House Intelligence Committee members that the CIA had misled Congress for eight years about the program.

    Jan Schakowsky: Dick Cheney's program validates Nancy Pelosi - Alex Isenstadt - POLITICO.com

    --------------------



    There is a link that if the CIA is willing to "mislead" (ie, "lie" to) Congress - based on orders from the dick Cheney - they are certainly willing to lie to Pelosi about the torture program. The question is not "IF" the CIA addressed Pelosi, it's how exactly they misled her when they did get around to visiting her.


    Remember, the CIA is bound by law to disclose even covert operations to (at least) the leaders of both houses of Congress.


    What did they disclose? Does anyone here think they were fully UP FRONT with Pelosi about the waterboarding?


    The CIA director himself is saying that the CIA lied to Congress and to him.
     
  5. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    New on Politico:


    More Democrats call for investigating the CIA


    Calls for an investigation into the Central Intelligence Agency intensified this weekend amid revelations that former Vice President Dick Cheney ordered the concealment of a covert agency spy program from Congress.


    Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said that the Senate Intelligence Committee should “absolutely” investigate the program.


    "The executive branch of government should not create programs like these programs and keep Congress in the dark," Durbin said on ABC’s “This Week”. "To have a massive program that was concealed from the leaders in Congress is not only inappropriate, it could be illegal."


    More Democrats call for investigating the CIA - Alex Isenstadt - POLITICO.com



    --------------------


    The root of this problem seems to be that some LPSG posters (Trinity, faceking, the former starman, etc. -- and perhaps Flashy) believe that the executive office breaking the law during wartime is "Ok" because whatever needs to be done to keep the country safe, legal of otherwise, is justifiable.


    So, is breaking domestic and international laws during wartime justifiable?
     
  6. Phil Ayesho

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    Flashy- please stop talking out of your ass...

    She was not informed of torture. The CIA has been caught lying not only about what the briefings covered, but the very fact of the briefings themselves.
    They CLAIMED they conducted briefings that have been proven to not have occurred at all.
    So, when the CIA's own records of WHO they briefed and when are proven to be lies... on what basis can you accept their claims of what they briefed on?

    Pelosi was prevented by law from doing anything about it because she was not allowed to divulge the specifics of any briefing...

    However, I don't think you can say she didn't do anything about it in whatever way she was legally allowed...
    She did, after all, manage to get democratic control of the house back.
    She did, after all, work very hard to get the republicans shitcanned.
    And she is, after all the one who has called for investigations.


    And here we are' just a few weeks later and Pannetta is ALREADY having to fess up that the CIA DID lie to her and the other members they are required by law to inform.
    Suddenly Pannetta has to fess up to covert operations that CHENEY ordered the CIA to not reveal- which is, by the way, a crime.

    Suddenly Pannetta has to say that, while its not CIA POLICY to lie or mislead... in fact, we did and we do....?

    The truth is now rather clear.
    EVERY claim Pelosi made concerning the dissembling of the CIA to congress has been proven to be accurate.
    And Pannetta's claim that she WAS informed of waterboarding is based upon review of records kept by people that were ordered to commit crimes by the former VP.

    Sorry... but ANY claim made by Panetta in defense of the CIA has, at this point, been irreparably impeached.
    And Panetta has already admitted to a blantant coverup.

    At this point... the veracity of any document provided by the CIA is so suspect that a full investigation is called for.


    Fucking criminal neocon fucks.
    I think we can keep Gitmo open and simply re-purpose it as the federal prison specifically for the appointees and elected members of the Bush Administration.

    Cheney can have the cell with the best view.
     
  7. Flashy

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    obviously, phil, talking out of your ass is what you are good at, so let me tell this to you slowly.

    The breifing you are discussing, where she was not in fact informed, based on the CIA lying, was in September 2002.

    She *WAS* in fact, absolutely informed of torture in February 2003.

    there were no lies about that meeting in 2003...the reason we know it is true, is because she did not even bother to attend that briefing. Instead, she sent her national security aide, Michael Sheey, to the classified briefing of Jane Harman who was on the House Intelligence Committee who then informed her, absolutely, as documented meticulously in his and her ownb words

    Ipso Facto

    on what basis can i accept the CIA claims that they briefed Pelosi? gee, i do not know...ummmmm...how about this:

    maybe the fact that she and her staffer both admitted it


    so stop talking out your ass yourself Phil...you are either a liar, or did not care to learn about the february 2003 meeting

    maybe you should read these complete and total facts, then get back to me and admit you were wrong and you were in fact the one talking out your ass:


    At the same news conference where she accused the CIA of misleading her on the topic, Pelosi acknowledged for the first time that she knew in 2003 that terrorism suspects were waterboarded. She said she learned that from an aide who sat in on a briefing in February 2003.

    TheHill.com - Pelosi tries to backpedal on CIA criticism



    she was absolutely informed, by her national security aide, Michael Sheehy, who sat in on the classified briefing of Hoekstra and Harman by CIA officials, in February 2003, when they were informed of the EIT's having been used.

    you are either a liar, phil, or have not done your research on this particular aspect of the sequence of events.

    google - Michael Sheehy - Nancy Pelosi

    if my facts are not good enough for you.

    i will simply accept that this is an oversight on your part, that you likely will not bother to admit anyway...in lieu of believing that you'd deliberately lie about the 2003 meeting to make some cheap points.

    :rolleyes:
     
  8. houtx48

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    Flashy- please stop talking out of your ass..................don't worry it has laryngitis's of the hemorrhoids.
     
  9. Flashy

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    says the guy who just attempted to pluralize laryngitis :rolleyes:
     
  10. Dave NoCal

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    Actually, it was possessive. Oh well...
    Dave
     
  11. Flashy

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    indeed, dave my friend, it was..which just goes to show how ridiculous the attempt was in trying to make a word that has no plural, plural, and stumbling into the possessive :wink:
     
  12. sparky11point5

    sparky11point5 New Member

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    Well, what was ridiculous was the attempt to deflect the debate on torture by implicating Pelosi and other Democratic Senators. We have heard substantial evidence from individuals involved that there was a program of torture and a strategy to justify these crimes and later hide them. The CIA and the Bush administration have acknowledged the essential facts -- the methods of torture, time period, participants, and at least some of the detainees involved. We still need to know who was responsible in the administration, CIA, and private contractors.

    Instead of having this discussion, the Republicans attempted a 'poison pill' defense -- claiming that Pelosi and others knew about the torture and condoned it (or at least did nothing to stop it). The goal was to prevent further inquiry or debate by forcing the Democrats to help cover up the crimes based on concerns that the leadership is also responsible.

    The problem with this approach is that it has no 'end game'. I personally believe that the Democratic leadership knew some aspects of the torture program, but that the CIA obfuscated the extent of the practices. Yet, this really does not matter, since knowing of a crime is far less serious than committing the crime. I hope that Holder does appoint a special prosecutor then the public can know everything, including who ordered the program and who knew about it, whatever party affiliation.

    I find it shocking that we have progressed from: "we don't torture" to "we tortured, but it was necessary" to "we did not get any information but we were really scared" to "the Democrats knew" to ....

    Now it turns out that CIA dissembled. This is really no surprise, since secrets are their entire mission.

    Torture is wrong, no matter what, or why, or when. I really hope we can learn this as a country, with the harsh light of an investigation and prosecution.
     
  13. houtx48

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    what i can't hear you?
     
  14. vince

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    There's something I don't understand here about the CIA and the vice-president.

    Does the CIA answer to the VP? Where does the buck stop on this recent revelation that Cheney "ordered" the CIA the withhold information from Congress? Was he running somekind of rogue op? Or would the president (Bush) have known and approved?

    From what I remember from civics class, the VP has no authority whatsoever except in role as president of the Senate.

    So I don't get what all the clamor is over Cheney. Wasn't Bush the Chief?
     
  15. Flashy

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    so, apparently, the plan was to assassinate Al Qaieda Leaders and was never actually put into action...LOL

    "The plans remained vague and were never carried out, the officials said, "


    heaven forbid we put into place covert plans to attempt to kill al qaieda leaders and never carried them out

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/us/14intel.html?_r=1&hp
     
  16. sparky11point5

    sparky11point5 New Member

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    Correct me if this is wrong, but the Church Act forbids the US government from assassination. Although I cannot remember it this is anyone or just foreign "leaders".
     
  17. Flashy

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    just foreign leaders/heads of state/government officials (passed during the mid-70s IIRC, in response to the CIA involvements in the past of US sponsored coups/assassinations etc.) .

    terrorists are classified as enemy soldiers. Although there are question marks over international law and "targeted killings", Al Qaieda Leaders (and members and operatives) are not heads of state and are not safe under the guidelines passed in the 70s against assassination.

    from the linked article:

    That ban does not apply to the killing of enemies in a war, government officials say. The Bush administration took the position that killing members of Al Qaeda, a terrorist group that has attacked the United States and stated that its goal is to attack again, is no different than shooting enemy soldiers on the battlefield. The Obama administration, which has continued to fire missiles from Predator drones on suspected Qaeda members in Pakistan, has taken the same view.


    (obviously sparky, there are grey areas, but considering the history of covert operations against terrorists in numerous countries, i do not think there is anything that would ultimately stop the US or another country from undertaking assassinations of terrorists in other countries...i guess a good example of this would be the Mossad killings in Europe of those involved in the Munich Massacre and other members of Black September. I know the French and British have had numerous operations that probably are "black" enough against the IRA during that time, and the French vs Algerians etc...I would bet that the Russians, Germans etc. all have done so as well at various times. But who knows...it is a rather shadowy world.)
     
  18. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    This isn't a "misled"... poor title choice wording there.

    They just didn't tell Congress as they shouldn't. Imagine that mentality, and what the Dems of 2009 are going after.... circa 1942... the Euro coinage imprint would be all in German.

    Pelosi knew what was going on w/ the "torture" (which I could care less about)... so now the tactic is a deflection from the disaster that is the American economy w/ a record deficit that is expected to jump at least 60% in the course of a year... (picture an already steep chart, launching upward like the space shuttle). Anyways, the idea seems to be to find some illegality in what the CIA does in secret ops that Congress doesn't (and shouldn't) know about, and try to drag Cheney with it.

    The CIA was into place to do such ops. Putin has to be laughing his ass off... how do you say "pussies" in russian?

    Good luck.

    As Flashy put it heaven forbid we put into place covert plans to attempt to kill al qaieda leaders

    Can guarantee you the CIA is doing some funky stuff in Afghanistan amidst the collateral damage this is occurring Barrah's watch.
     
    #18 faceking, Jul 14, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2009
  19. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    I am learning as I go along, but here is a law the various articles keep referencing:

    The amended National Security Act of 1947 says the president should keep the intelligence committees “fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity.”


    The CIA is not a completely rogue operation. They are required under law to keep the president and at least 8 members of Congress (4 from each party) informed of all clandestine activity.



    --------------------

    Here's breaking news from earlier today:

    AP sources: House lays groundwork for CIA probe


    WASHINGTON – The House Intelligence Committee has asked the CIA to provide documents about the now-canceled program to target al-Qaida leaders, congressional officials said Tuesday. The move is a precursor to what will almost certainly become a full-blown investigation into the secret operation and why the program was not disclosed to Congress, said the officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

    CIA Director Leon Panetta told Congress on June 24 that he had canceled the effort to kill al-Qaida leaders with hit teams soon after learning about the operation. Panetta also told lawmakers that former Vice President Dick Cheney directed the CIA not to inform Congress of the specifics of the secret program.


    AP sources: House lays groundwork for CIA probe - Yahoo! News


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    Here's something else:


    Liz Cheney refuses to discuss father's role in CIA



    WASHINGTON (AP) — Vice President Dick Cheney's daughter Liz said Tuesday she doesn't believe her father did anything wrong in connection with a secret CIA operation that officials have said was designed to capture and kill al-Qaeda figures.

    At the same time, Liz Cheney accused House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and congressional Democrats of seeking to politicize lingering arguments over how the administration of former President George W. Bush conducted the war against terrorism in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

    Asked directly on MSNBC whether her father directed the CIA not to keep Congress fully informed about the secret program, Cheney said, "This is a classified program and he doesn't talk about classified programs."



    Liz Cheney refuses to discuss father's role in CIA - USATODAY.com


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    So, now let's see if I have this right. Cheney classifies a "CIA hit program". Then breaks precedent (and 2 or 3 laws) by not informing the 4 leaders of Congress -- and those heads of intelligence committees.

    And then Cheney and daughter (who has literally been whoring herself off to every available media outlet defending daddy the past several weeks) suddenly cannot speak about the issue -- because it's CLASSIFIED.



    What is the vice president doing at the dead center of CIA torture and assassination plots? Cheney has no authority to order the CIA to bypass congressional oversight (even if it's only to the Gang of 8).
     
  20. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

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    I'm thankful of the CIA's "hit program", and 8 years of safe soil.

    Keep up the good work folks.

    By the way, we're coming up on 6 months gone by with no OBL. How much longer?
     
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