To Marleyislegend

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by Wyldgusechaz, May 8, 2008.

  1. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

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    If you want to argue agains pure stats (as everyone here in the alternate universe of LPSG is wont to do), lets rumble.

    From MSNBC

    African-American women and where they stand - The Daily Nightly - msnbc.com

    I will highlight this quote:

    >>>
    Monday's installment will discuss African-American women's progress in the education field. Nearly two-thirds of African-American undergraduates are women. At black colleges, the ratio of women to men is 7 to 1. And that is leading to a disparity in the number of African-American women who go on to own their own businesses. Rehema Ellis will talk to educators, students and businesswomen about why this disparity exists.<<<


    SEVEN TO ONE!!!! Over all 67/33!! Plenty of black men with degrees??!! Bullshit. Call me a racist, call me anything you want but try to refute cold hard stats. Slowly but relentlessly black men are being marginalized because they are less capable with their lack of education of competing in todays economic high tech world. Demographers get excited when differences in the sexes approach 51/49, but 7/1?! 67/33? If black men don't kick into gear here quick and start getting well educated, then all we will see is more young black men incarcerated as they find it more and more difficult to make their way in an increasingly high tech world.

    BTW this also holds for all males as a group. Degree ratios of W59/M41 spell demographic instability.

    Let me piss off more folks here. Young men in America are abandoning their responsibility to make the most of themselves by not getting well educated. If you aren't well on your way to your life goal career by age 26-30, you are fucking toast for realizing your potential. Women are taking your place. Women are more persistent and goal oriented apparently and it is now showing in cold hard stats.
     
  2. marleyisalegend

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    so is every black woman after a black man??

    In my opinion

    5+million black men having graduated from college

    PLUS

    lesbians

    MINUS

    black women who prefer other races and don't date black guys anyway

    EQUALS

    a slightly more leveled playing field than the one you insist
     
  3. ManlyBanisters

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    Marley - check the threads started by this guy. You're arguing with a guy who tried to argue that men with smaller penises and races of men with smaller penises are more evolved than men / races of men with larger penises. Or was it bigger brains = smaller penises and therefore blacks are thick? It was some such bullshit - he was blown out of the water.

    He showed his true colours there and I expect he'll do so again... given enough rope...
     
  4. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    And since the 80s the western education system has been feminized to better accommodate the needs of females at the expense of the needs of males. The result is that males are more frequently seen as disruptive, hyperactive, and disinterested. The gender gap begins in elementary school and escalates as the level of education increases. It's not just black males either; it's all males in most westernized countries, not just the USA:

     
  5. inman69

    inman69 Member

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    That's it!
     
  6. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    And seriously, why do you think there's a lack of black men getting college educations? You think most black men wouldn't want a chance to go to college if they were in school systems that gave them better opportunities? You think all black men grow up wanting to be gang bangers, hustlers, basketball players and rappers?

    You're basically using a random poll to categorize an entire racial demographic. Before you dig yourself into a much deeper hole, stop here. Come at this using your head, not with a bloated statistic and a sweeping generalization.
     
  7. Wyldgusechaz

    Wyldgusechaz New Member

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    Well I will dig all the holes I want. But my stats are clear and they have an excellent control group: Black women!! You tell me why black women are getting degrees 2 to 1 over black men. Why do black women seem to do OK in the exact same education system? Maybe in your cosmos black women are separated at birth from black men and go thru a different education system but in the real world, their opportunites are exactly the same. And black women beat black men 2:1. Growing up in the same elemenatary school, junior high, and high school environment.

    And its not a fucking random poll. Its not even a poll. It is statistical measurement, but of course you don't understand that. It a plain counting of the # of graduates. Thats not a poll. IT IS A FACT. How can one argue against facts? Its not opinion. U tell me why black women get it and black men do not, at least in the percentages that are clearly documented.
     
  8. marleyisalegend

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    exactly. i'm not defending some black men's choice of failing to get educated, but in all fairness, there are STARK contracts to educated men and uneducated men. you may find a good portion of educated men come from well-do-do joan clever families where going to college is just as natural a process of life as having a baby or eating dinner. the "dumb men" you're referring to often grow up without their fathers, either not knowing who they are or they're incarcerated. they struggle with reading while their black mom is out shaking her ass at the club. they develop an off sense of the "natural order of life" because instead of living at home with mom and dad they're stuttled from grandma to aunt to uncle to grandma. this happens disproportionately to black boys. they get molested by the neighbor pedophile but never tell anyone because it makes them feel gay and our culture would tear them apart for "letting a man do that to him".

    in my opinion, the slavery and proceeding struggle for equality did for black men in america is like this kind of race:

    we started at the starting line, then got pushed a few feet back, got one leg chopped off, were blindfolded, and now everybody's criticizing us for not being able to keep up with the rest of the guys.

    like someone else said, do you think every drug dealer does it because they WANT to?? do all black criminals do so because it's more fun?? i'm not excusing their behavior or ignoring personal responsibility, but it's not like every brother in this country has trust funds and savings accounts they can tap into to PAY for college which is one of the most OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive things in this country. seriously, the packet for college financial aid is thicker than the one i use to file my taxes. black men have been EXTREMELY devalued in this country.

    off the top of my head, i can name 7 black boys i grew up with or around who were kidnapped, tortured, abused, molested. none of them got as much media attention as blonde haired blue eyed jean bonet ramsey or natalee halloway. as entertainers, black men are MORE likely to be put in the news for an arrest than for the charity foundation they start or for the countless hours they spend mentoring young children. look at porn. the black man is rarely ever the teacher, the doctor, etcc.. he's the sex-hungry mandingo warrior that only understands thrashing pussy. what you're doing with this thread is the same thing CNN does to muslims, painting an inaccurate potrait based on statistics that back up prejudices against black men. i could say all germans are extremists because there were thousands of nazi soldiers, but that's a terrible statement to make for the OTHER thousands that weren't.

    although EVERYBODY likes to point their fingers at dumb black men who end up in prison, on welfare, or without the college degree they can't afford, noone seems to be willing to examine WHY we're so off base. i would understand this argument if black men didn't have the mountain of obstacles that stand before them AS SOON AS THEY'RE BORN, but you're essentially yelling at one-armed cripple for not being able to make as many jumpshots as michael jordan (who spent his whole life practicing basketball). you're slapping a rape victim repeatedly and telling her to enjoy sex as much as the sex-guru who's been studying orgasms for years.
     
  9. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    The figure of 2/3 isn't all that far from every other racial demographic so to say that there's an enormous disparity isn't true if you compare females vs. males graduating college or higher.

    What is true is that blacks represent a higher proportion of low-income households in the United States versus all other racial groups. A disparate number of black households are low-income and people from low-income households are far less likely than people from middle or high income households to graduate college or graduate school but that doesn't statistically answer wyldgusechaz's question.

    Some interesting sociological work has been done to examine the other factors contributing to the disproportionate number of black females graduating. Among those factors considered are the disproportionate number of female-headed black households, a possible cultural prohibition on males doing well in school in some low-income urban communities, perceived and actual racial discrimination by education providers, and disparate attention being paid by educators to the needs of girls over boys. In each case, there have been studies which tend to support each of these theories to some degree though no single theory seems to override the others save that a critical factor of success seems to be the support and mentorship of an older person who takes a continued interest in the success of the black male student (Marilyn J. Ross, Success Factors of Young African-American Males at a Historically Black College, 1998).

    Wyldgusechaz's is a legitimate question despite my reservations about his motives.
     
  10. marleyisalegend

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    he's not asking a question, he's not concerned about the uneducated black men and solving the problem, he's talking about why its hard to get a smart black date
     
  11. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Finding a happy, well-adjusted, intelligent, attractive gay man is extremely unusual; particularly when they're young and haven't quite overcome all their issues. As blacks represent about 13% of all Americans, and half those are women, that just leaves about 6% of the population. Figuring that only 10-15% of all men in the US are gay, and of those, not all are out, then yeah, finding a well-educated, well-adjusted, intelligent, attractive black gay man is going to be more difficult simply because they're in a minority of a minority and, because of the greater prevalence of low income households within the black demographic, and because low income communities of all races tend to be less accepting of open homosexuality, the chances diminish further.

    On the other hand, out gays males do tend to be better educated than straight males of any other demographic, all other factors being equal. Given that, I would say that he's simply hanging out in all the wrong places or has traits that does not attract the type of man he's interested in. I know of one gay bar in NY that primarily draws a black crowd. Perhaps he should try one?
     
  12. ManlyBanisters

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    Well - the question was originally about a black woman having to date outside her race to have any chance of marrying someone as educated as herself. OK - it wasn't put in terms quite as absolute - but nearly.
     
  13. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh! Then yeah, statistically she'd nearly always have to date outside of her race if she's straight and if marrying someone as educated as herself is important. What matters is which is more important: dating within her race or marrying someone as educated. I believe, though I'm not certain, that the latter is more important to all women of various racial groups but don't quote me on that.
     
  14. ManlyBanisters

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    I would hope you are right - I know some couples who have an education disparity but it does seem to be an issue, more so if it is the man who is less educated*. On the other hand I know a fair few couples of different races and that seems to be much less of a point of contention.

    *Edit: I have noticed that different levels of education seem to be slightly less important / likely to cause problems in gay couples. That's just my experience of friends and friends of friends.
     
  15. marleyisalegend

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    EXACTLY. this entire argument is based on the notion that a college degree makes you "educated". technically yes but i know some post-grads who can repeat everything their teacher tells them, but put them out in the real world and they're awkard and their overducation causes them to form misguided opinions of different situations and people.

    (i.e. some people who know a lot about the extremisms of SOME muslims will tends to think that ALL muslims are violent and blood-thirsty and that violence and terrorism are in fact the objective of the muslim religion)

    i'll go on record as saying any day that a college education makes you no more educated than sitting in the garage makes you a car. to some degree, a college degree just means you know how to listen to someone and remember what they told you. it doesn't mean you know how to think for yourself or understand real life situations.

    one of the smartest people i knew was my great grandmother who never made it past 6th grade.
     
  16. jason_els

    jason_els <img border="0" src="/images/badges/gold_member.gi

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    Interesting point. I know quite a few couples where the wife is better educated than husband and it doesn't seem to make much of a difference but then I'm not privy to what happens when they're alone. I think, in these instances, what matters more is income disparity that favors the wife. Men still like to be the primary breadwinners because it's how we measure ourselves as providing for our family, which is our primary consideration in family making. When that disparity grows to the point that there's loss of financial control, then men tend to feel like hired bodyguards, handymen, and sperm depositors. It's important for women to make a man feel needed.

    Gay couples are very different, I admit this 100% and I think it's because men tend to be less class-conscious in purely social situations. Men either bond or compete. If they bond then it means there's a common ground that transcends money, which is how American men interpret class. Then there's the great sex. If a couple has amazing sex, that counts for a lot. Alas, we're simple creatures.
     
  17. cm70874

    cm70874 New Member

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    I am actually pretty excited to say this, but I agree with Marley on this one. I am not going to argue on how accurate or valid the statistics are, but did they by any chance include any extenuating factors. Paraphrasing Marley, did they know where these individuals grew up, what type families they came from (single parent, adoptive and so on) or if the thought of "college graduate" refers to an accredited university or community college. All in all, college isn't for everyone, you don't necessarily need a degree to get a good job, some fields have entry level positions that allow you to move up. So to make the suggestion that black men need to "kick it into gear", is blantantly uncalled for. What may seem to be a necessity to you, may not be to someone else.
     
  18. D_Gunther Snotpole

    D_Gunther Snotpole Account Disabled

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    From real curiosity, Jason, where do those figures come from?
     
  19. ManlyBanisters

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    I kinda agree and I kinda don't. It depends on the person, what they did in college and how they did it - or what they do to educate themselves if they haven't been to college. Certainly most of the well educated people I know are graduates - But I know a good few very intelligent people who never went to college too, I guess I consider them well self-educated - and I don't consider one better than the other.

    As yes, now you mention income disparity is involved in the couples who've had issues with a better educated wife / less educated husband. The man / man dynamics of a gay relationship are certainly different from the woman / man dynamics of a straight relationship. I think that men probably do overcome more differences by concentrating on their sameness in a way that men and women can't (or won't?).
     
  20. marleyisalegend

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    in my own personal experience, i was laid off recently and since then my boyfriend has given me zero grief about paying a majority of the bills, rent, cable, food, groceries, etc.. he sees that i'm TRYING to find work and makes allowances for that. i've seen several black woman who, as soon as the money is gone, they're having an affair with a wealthy rapper or a college proffessor. leaving behind the boyfriend who helped her pay for the salon she owns and fathered her two children. "UH UH, I NEED A MAN WHO GONE PAY MY BILLS, GET MY HURR DID"

    i wonder how black women would've felt if, during the underground railroad, black men had said "you're too slow, you're holding us back, i'ma go get me a white woman cuz they can afford cars. BYE BITCH!"
     
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