To my American friends.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by luka82, Dec 8, 2010.

  1. luka82

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    I come from the country that has perceived USA as the leader of the free world, at least since the Milosevic`s regime has come to an end in 2000. The leader of world`s democracy.
    But questions like "Don`t ask, don`t tell", gay teen suicides, the WikiLeaks affair (actually the attempts to shut down that site), The Mosque at Ground Zero, Iraq, Afghanistan- I`d say a mass anti-islam hysteria, has shed a different light on my USA perspective.
    I ask you people, do you feel like you are living in a free country?
    Are you free to say what you want and what you see as the truth without the system`s retaliation?
    Are democracy and human rights myths? Do they just serve to bring the regimes down? Do the countries that impose the question of Human Rights respect those rights themselves?
    PS There is a link on youtube where Rosie O`Donnell says on The View that all media in The USA are controled by 4 big companies. Is that true?
    I, personally, believe in human rights. I`m a pacifist. I survived war, bombs and all that shit. And I have seen what it brings. And I want to live in a free world.
     
  2. helgaleena

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    At the present time, corporations rule the world, Luka. But the governmental system in the United States still has many advantages compared to most others. Recently a Druid from Europe wrote in to another group I belong to, for Druids, amazed at the crazy things people in positions of leadership do here publicly. He asked, Isn't it illegal to spread hatred and bigotry?

    No, in the USA we are guaranteed freedom to be as stupid as we like, and hopefully make our absurdities patent enough to show. We still have a number of freedoms that are not yet widely available everywhere. But no, the freedom is not widely tested and has been eroded by the Patriot Act in the purported interests of 'national security'.

    I think you will find that all systems of government around the world are equally artificial constructs held in place by economic entities. That's been my experience.

    And yes, Rosie is correct. MCA Universal, Fox, Rupert Murdoch, and CNN are the most visible media controllers.
     
    #2 helgaleena, Dec 8, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  3. Countryguy63

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    Kind of a complicated answer for me.

    Free, yes...manipulated, YES :frown1:
     
  4. bigbull29

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    Muslims are treated better in the US than in other non-Muslim countrys in the free world (lived in France, UK and Australia). I will argue that for a lifetime (Canada does quite well, too).

    Europe is still very overtly racist towards Jews and Muslims, and other minorities, and still has so much progress to make in that regard. Don't go be pointing fingers toward the US? The pisses me off real bad.

    Muslims integrate into US society much better than they do in Europeans societies. That is a fact. What gives in Europe, or even Australia where they can't seem to do so?
     
  5. luka82

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    Helgs but over 600,000 dead Iraqi people and no weapons of mass destruction is not only stupidity it`s genocide.
    I was avare that my country was attempting to ethnically cleanse Kosovo, I was so ashamed, I still am. They didn`t have the right to kill people in my name. It` s something we still live with. Some sick bastards still think it`s the act of patriotism, and ignore the numbers of dead Albanians.
    The democratic goverment still has to cope with the horrors of our past.
    On the other hand 250,000 Serbs were cleansed from Croatia and the USA did nothing. Many of those people still live like refugees.
    Ethnical cleansing is ethical cleansing, death is death.
    My point is, if we have rules, why don`t we have the same rules for everybody.
     
    #5 luka82, Dec 8, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  6. luka82

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    Bull, with all due respect, I wasn`t talking about integration. I don`t know the statistics but I believe there is a bigger number of Muslims in France than in the whole USA?
    I`m not pointing fingers, I`m asking.
    I feel like after 9/11 there is/was a mass anti-muslim hysteria that is not justified. That is my perceptive, doesn`t mean I`m right. I really want to be proven wrong.
     
  7. helgaleena

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    That would be good, my tumbling friend. But do remember what the USA did to the Native Americans. Ethnic cleansing is still going on behind the scenes with Native women being involuntarily sterilized in BIA hospitals when they come in for other procedures. I know this from incidents in my own extended family, because I married a Native and have Native children.
    As long as the sovereign Nations within the USA stay relatively quiet and pay federal income taxes, they can get along.

    But recently the Iroquois Nations Lacrosse team was barred from international competition because they habitually traveled under their own passports, not USA passports. This is significant and chilling.

    Muslims may have it better here than elsewhere, but here is still not a paradise. Yet.
     
  8. D_Chaumbrelayne_Copprehead

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    I think you are right about the anti-Muslim feeling. We were attacked by Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who saw American as the originator of most of the evil in the world.

    We have our own fundamentalist Christian terrorists who do things like kill doctors who perform abortions.

    The problem is not the religion, or even the extremist ideas, but the actions taken.

    However, strange things scare people; people here are scared by Islam, which is still a very small religion (percentage-wise) in the US. They focus on the strangeness of it rather than the real villian (extremist terror). That causes us to spend time trying to keep a mosque from being built instead of attacking the real enemy.
     
  9. KTF40

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    I don't know if this will prove you wrong, but if you look at hate crimes committed in the United States, there were more hate crimes committed against Jews and/or Christians than against Muslims in 2008. Just something to consider when you use the term "mass anti-muslim hysteria".

    Surprise: More hate crimes against Christians than against Muslims | San Francisco Examiner
     
  10. luka82

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    This is what your article says KTF-
    After 9/11, there was a quick spike in anti-Muslim hate crimes — there were 28 in 2000, then 155 in 2002. In 2008, there were 123. Even one hate crime is too many,
    And then it says-but consider: Between 2 and 4 of every 100,000 Muslims was a hate crime victim in 2008. The murder rate in D.C. last year was about 24 for every 100,000 residents.
    I think this is a bias article. I would call growth from 28 hate crimes to 155 in two years- a huge problem.
    And by all means I do not justify crimes against Christians ( I am one) nor Jews.

    Edit-Please lets not turn this thread into one of those America Vs. Islam threads or something.
    I have never said Americans hate Muslims, in my language hysteria means unjustified fear. And that`s what I meant.
     
    #10 luka82, Dec 8, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  11. midlifebear

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    Helgaleena: Yikes! I worked in the Four Corners area for the BIA for VISTA (remember Volunteers in Service to America?) for 2.5 years, because evil faggots like me were not allowed to serve in the US Military. The daily horror of seeing how little respect the "white" Government of the USA had for the Navajos, Hopis, Goshutes, Utes, and Pueblans was unbelievable. And now the US Government gets it's panties in a bunch over the sovereignty of the Iroquois Nations Lacrosse team using their tribal pass ports? Significant and chilling is an understatement!

    We should talk. Seriously.

    Midlifebear :mad:
     
  12. Calboner

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    In my country, pandas are kept in zoos.
     
  13. luka82

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    Well, you see, they should be set free. After all, pandas are endangered :wink:
     
  14. B_mitchymo

    B_mitchymo New Member

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    PMSL :biggrin1::biggrin1::biggrin1:
    I'd say this was debateable. I'm not saying its wrong however.

    I think there are obvious differences between the USA and Europe. There is a closer muslim community in Europe, we have much smaller nations obviously and muslim communities can be dense compared to those in the US. This means it is easier for muslims to go about their own business and have no need to integrate as much. Where communities are smaller, there is a greater need to make friends with anyone to make life easier and less isolated.

    I don't know exactly how you mean muslims have integrated better in the US. Do they do things there that they don't elsewhere?

    This next point may or may not be another example. There are, in the UK, a number of faith schools, where muslims are taught in an environment which reaffirms their faith as opposed to teaching a national curriculum that all schools should ideally follow. One such school hit the headlines recently for using textbooks which taught that homosexuality was wrong. This promotes bigotry and is unacceptable. If muslims are going to hold such a view of homosexuality, its going to be difficult to integrate into a society which is tolerant and adopts a wholly different view of what homosexuality is.
    I don't know if the US has any schools where muslims may be being taught differently?
    Perhaps faith schools are less evident in the US? Are there any/many?

    On the last point you made about overt racism towards jews/muslims and minorities. I can't speak for other nations, but here, well, i've never witnessed anti-semitism or seen a racist who was ok with black minorities as long as they were'nt muslim, if you see what i mean, racists seem to be confined to a core group who are just bigotted through and through about anyone who doesn't fit their aryon ideal. (spelling???)
    And wherever racist groups march in this country, there appears to be an opposition rally marching against them.
    In the US however, those who are biggotted there seem to do things in a much more damaging way because they are more free to express themselves, they can be more open and so reach more minds. This either promotes their cause or offends many more who are confronted with it.

    Europe has a different approach than the US. I wouldn't say that either was failing. But for everyone in the US that says the European version is not as good, there would be a european saying the same about the US one.
     
  15. B_jeepguy2

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    Yes it is a free country in the respect that you are free to say, do, and believe whatever you want, however if what you say, do, or believe is outside the "mainstream" in the part of the country where you live you will be marginalized by society to some extent. For example, In some parts of the USA being openly gay and marching in a gay pride parade is totally acceptable while in the Bible Belt it could cause discrimination in employment, housing, and could even get you beat up or even worse, killed. If you express opposition to the wars in Iraq or Afganistan in a part of the country where most people have a family member serving in the military or working in defense related industries you would be viewed as a traitor. In other parts of the country you would be considered a patriot for expressing the very same views or attending a war protest.

    One reason for the Anti-Muslim bias in America is the fact that the zionist Jews have bought up nearly all of the media in the USA. Everything we see on televison, newspapers, in news magazines, etc. is generally biased in favor of Israel and usually portrays Arabs and Muslims as an uncivilized, barbaric, bunch of radical jihadis who beat themselves with chains, enslave their women, mutilate people for petty theft, and behead Americans. Their only ambition in life is to strap on a bomb and blow themselves up in a terrorist attack to kill Americans and Israelis in the name of Allah so they can have sex with virgins in heaven.

    After constantly seeing all of these news reports reinforcing the image of "Israel is good, all Arabs and all Muslims are barbarians," people start to believe it. I am not even talking about the right wing Christian fanatics in the US who diabolocly support Israel due to their religious belief that the jews are "God's chosen people" or some BS like that. These religious fanatics are also largely responsible for the continued marginalization of gays in the USA that you also mentioned.

    In addition to the news media, the zionist Jews have also bought many of our politicians through AIPAC, (the Israel lobby in Washington) and there are many people in very high places in the US Government who actually hold dual citizenship in America and Israel so which nation they really have allegiance to should be seriously questioned...but for some reason it is not. We certainly do not allow citizens of other nations like Japan, Germany, or France to hold national office or high level positions in the Pentagon, Department of State, CIA, and even the White House but there are Israeli citizens in all of these. Rahm Emanual, president Obama's Chief of Staff is an Israeli citizen and veteran of the Isreali Defense Forces. When my relatives in Germany ask me how the United States can continue to support Israel when the rest of the free world views the zionist state as a pariah for occupying Arab lands and murdering countless Palestinians over the last four decades I tell just them that the zionists own the US government.

    When 9/11 happend, it caused a great deal of patriotism and completely outraged Americans many of whom already had a dim view of Arabs from watching the mainstream media and the attack caused fear and Anti-Muslim hysteria in the USA which is exactly what it was intended to to by the people who planned it. A bunch of Muslims hiding in caves didn't destroy the twin towers or hit the Pentagon with whatever blew a small round hole in the wall and set it the building on fire. The FBI still won't release the security camera videos showing the "Boeing 757" that allegedly hit the Pentagon.

    Most foreign governments long ago concluded that 9/11 was an "inside job" but this was never reported in the mainstream media in the US except when the Iranian president (who is viewed as an idiot by Americans) said it at the UN and the US delegation got up and marched out. When the former president of Italy said it, the German minister of defense said it, and when Japanese goverment officials said, it never made the news in the USA.

    The small but increasing number of Americans who have enough sense to think for themselves and enough knowledge of physics to know that massive skyscrapers, buildings that were designed to survive plane crashes, category 5 hurricanes, and bombings do not collapse at free fall speed and turn to dust unless well placed explosives are used to remove the support structures. Those who doubt the official story that burning jet fuel melted the steel are marginalized as crazies and conspiracy theorists. Anyone who connects the dots and suggests that that some rouge elements within the US government may have had advanced knowledge of and did nothing, or may have been complicit in these attacks is considered un-patriotic. If someone even suggests that the Israeli Mossad may have been involved, which wouldn't be the first time Israel has staged a false flag attack agsinst the United States, they are immediately dismissed as an anti Semite.

    The war in Afganistan has absolutely nothing to do with fighting terrorism or finding Bin Laden. The US invaded Afganistan to get rid of the Taliban because the Taliban would not let BIG OIL build the Trans-Afganistan pipeline through Afganistan so they needed a regime change. The USA invaded Iraq because Israel and the Saudis thought Sadaam was a threat and wanted "regime change" and BIG OIL wanted to exploit Iraq's massive oil reserves and Sadaam woud not let them into Iraq. I suspect that the USA will eventually invade Iran for the same damn reasons. In fact the leaked diplomatic cables show that the Israelis and the Saudis are pushing for US strike against Iran.

    The really sad thing is that both the Afgan and the Iraqi people welcomed the US as liberators but the US has totally fucked up both countries. In Iraq we disbanded the entire Iraqi Army and in the process of "de Baathifying" the nation got rid of all of the public servants who made Iraq function as a nation so instead of freedom the Iraqis ended up with complete anarchy and a lack of even basic services such as electricity, water, and sanitation that they had under Sadaam. This anarchy led to a sectarian civil war and then all hell broke loose.

    In Afganistan we got rid of an opressive regime and installed a bunch of "democraticly" elected war lords in its place who are just as bad and possibly worse than the Taliban. The Afgan people probably wish we had just stayed at home...but that pipeline is back on track and Vice President Dick Cheney's company Halliburton stands to make a huge profits building it. Hamid Karzai the new President of Afgainstan used to work as a consultant for for Unocal, one of the big oil companies involved in the Trans Afganistan pipeline project. Go Figure!

    I sincerely hope that my nation will someday get over its love affair with Israel and quit using its massive military power to try and dominate the entire world before these endless wars morally and financially bankrupt us...but unfortunately both appear to be close at hand.
     
    #15 B_jeepguy2, Dec 8, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2010
  16. helgaleena

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    I'm a Rothschild and I'm comin' to get you... :tongue:
     
  17. B_jeepguy2

    B_jeepguy2 New Member

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    If you really were you wouldnt tell me about it you would just incite global conflict and manipulate the currency to wreck the world's economy and cause a massive depression so I would lose my job, lose my house, lose my car, my life savings, and starve to death....while you raked in billions of dollars.

    OH SHIT! I guess you were not joking, that is happening right now!:eek:
     
  18. lucky8

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  19. Calboner

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    As reluctant as I am in general to take a side against Mr. Carlin (who seems to be taking a holiday from doing comedy in that video), that sounds like a load of crap to me. "Entirely free"---free of what? "Free" is an essentially negative term: applied to human actions, it signifies the absence of something that restricts or compels such actions. Talk about being "entirely free" is either a hyperbolic way of talking about some quite specific range of freedoms or else a sally into metaphysical questions that no one knows how to answer.
     
  20. helgaleena

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    Yes, the sky is falling. You are the one who lives with his grandma in her mansion and pays no rent, correct?
     
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