To my American friends.

[B_jeepguy2]

Yes, the sky is falling. You are the one who lives with his grandma in her mansion and pays no rent, correct?

You have one hell of a memory... you should go into politics.:smile:

Yeah thats me living in the waterfront mansion by myself now because granny passed away last summer at age 94.

Still unemployed and can't find a job anywhere. This economy SUX!

 

[lucky8]

As reluctant as I am in general to take a side against Mr. Carlin (who seems to be taking a holiday from doing comedy in that video), that sounds like a load of crap to me. "Entirely free"---free of what? "Free" is an essentially negative term: applied to human actions, it signifies the absence of something that restricts or compels such actions. Talk about being "entirely free" is either a hyperbolic way of talking about some quite specific range of freedoms or else a sally into metaphysical questions that no one knows how to answer.

Obviously the quote isn't literal, as choices are always limited no matter how 'free' someone is, but I do think he made a pretty legitimate statement in that clip. Corporations do manipulate the democratic system in a very big way, which can many times be perceived as a restriction of choice when corporate influence trumps that of the voter's. When it comes to policy making, I'd say corporations definitely have us beat when it comes to lobbying, and many times that's what it comes down to for certain politicians. And when it comes to government, let's face it, the government is everywhere, and always has its hand out for more. It's more about having people tell us what we can and can't do...which, in my opinion, there are way too many things we can't do...and most of it all comes down to money...

 

[B_TonyK8483]

Stated by Helgaleena, Reply #1:

At the present time, corporations rule the world

Unfortunately this statement is so true. In the past the Church and the State always worked together, now it's the Corporation and the State working together. If only there was a Separation of Corporation and State (it couldn't happen completely of course, because contractors do provide government services, but it would be nice to see them curtailed a bit).

If only our Founding Fathers realized how dangerous unrestrained capitalism could be, and how corporations would be able to exert such extreme control over not just the United States, but virtually every nation (Of course, I'm not for communism, I just think capitalism needs to be regulated for the good of everybody). Thomas Jefferson, at least, did realize that financial institutions were more dangerous a threat to a nation than even entire standing armies -- he clearly did not comprehend the full extent of what they were capable of, however.


Tony Kaiser
"No matter how I die, it was murder"
SNL Parody of Julian Assange

 

[B_jeepguy2]

Stated by Helgaleena, Reply #1:



Thomas Jefferson, at least, did realize that financial institutions were more dangerous a threat to a nation than even entire standing armies -- he clearly did not comprehend the full extent of what they were capable of, however.

I wonder what Thomas Jefferson would think of the US Military industrial complex, and the Federal reserve. I doubt he would be pleased

 

[JustAsking]

It is important to draw a distinction between freedom from government restriction and freedom from restrictions imposed by other citizens, groups, or institutions.

The US Constitution attempts to guarantee civil liberties in regard to government action or government restriction of action. Ironically, this leaves ordinary citizens, corporations, and other institutions free to restrict one's freedoms.

For example, the Constitutional guarantee of freedom of speech is in reference to the government suppressing free speech, not another institution. While the government cannot restrict what is published in a newspaper, the newspaper itself can restrict and censor anything it wants to.

But even at that, the USA is not even in the top ten when it comes to countries that have freedom of the press.

Of all the concerns about the erosion of freedom in the USA, I am not sure if I am worried more about the government or major corporations in that regard. One thing I do know is that there has never been a government that did not abuse the power held by its executive branch.

 

[B_TonyK8483]

@ jeepguy2,

I wonder what Thomas Jefferson would think of the US Military industrial complex

I don't think he would be very happy about it...

and the Federal reserve.

Terrified, he considered large banks to be more dangerous than standing armies

I doubt he would be pleased

Not at all

 

[B_VinylBoy]

As reluctant as I am in general to take a side against Mr. Carlin (who seems to be taking a holiday from doing comedy in that video), that sounds like a load of crap to me. "Entirely free"---free of what? "Free" is an essentially negative term: applied to human actions, it signifies the absence of something that restricts or compels such actions. Talk about being "entirely free" is either a hyperbolic way of talking about some quite specific range of freedoms or else a sally into metaphysical questions that no one knows how to answer.

Agreed. Love George Carlin like most people do, but sometimes he did go on tangents that were a little over the edge. Part of that was one of the reasons why I thought he was a great comedian. However, as pointed out by Calboner, his rants about being "entirely free" did miss the mark. Not sure if there's any anime fans out there, but this was one of the few scenes I still remember to this day that really tried to put a visual as to what "perfect freedom" is. It's from the final episode of "Neon Genesis Evangelion", one of my all-time favorites, and if one could get past the fact that it was a cartoon the message is pretty clear. Wait for about the 3:36 mark and it lasts for roughly 2-3 minutes or so.

 

[eurotop40]

Hum, I think that since the majority of US-Americans are desperately monolingual, do not travel overseas, have little real information of the outerworld but the one filtered by the big media etc. they THINK they are the freest, the best, etc. because this is what corporations tells them. Indeed, there was a time where the US were much freer than - say - most European countries, when e.g. the Austro-Hungarian and the German Empires existed, or when Italy had a fascist regime. BUT, you always have to consider things dynamically. If this was the case in the 1920s and 1930s, this does not necessarily mean that it is true in the 2000s. I have lived in NYC in 2003 and 2004 and I have got the impression that the US is ruled by an oligarchy of say 5% of the people and the other ones live in a sort of "golden (no more)" cage.

 

[silvertriumph2]

This is in response to luka82, whom I have thought highly of for some time now.

I live in NYC, a city of 22.2 million, which includes about 1.4 million who identify as being Muslim and reside in the 5 Boroughs of the City. In NYC alone, as of Aug. 2010 there are 175 Mosques (up from 86 in 2000), 23 Islamic Schools, and over 2000
various societies, organizations, and social groups. As far as I
know we live quite peacefully together.

Regarding the controversy about the proposed Mosque near Ground Zero in NYC, there is already a Mosque that has been holding services for 40 years only 4 blocks away, only a little
over 1 block further away than the proposed new one. I lost 39
friends in the WTC and was there myself that day. A Greek
Orthodox Church was crushed that day by the falling of Tower 1.
I am Greek Orthodox and visited that church quite often over the
years during lunch time. I personally have no problem with a
new Mosque being build near the site.

There are about 6000 Churches and 1000 Synagogues in the 5
Boroughs of NYC. The Aug. 2010 survey states there are 1209
Mosques in the US, but states that it may be closer to 2000,
plus schools and varoius organizations.

How many Churches are in Saudi Arabia...Zero, for they are not
allowed. Mecca? Never!
In Afghanistan it is illegal, but there is 1 small church. Fortunately many Muslim nations are tolerant towards Christians
and Jews and they are allowed to practice their religion and
operate places of worship. In ancient time the 3 religions lived
in peace...what happened? In my travels I have visited and
worshiped in them over the years. However, I believe the
tollerance in the Western world is much better for Muslims than
they are for other religions in Muslim countries. For instance a
friend of mine was a Priest in Tunisia, but he was forbidden to
allow any converts to Christianity. Only newly born children to
Christian parents are allowd to be baptised as Christians. In
Egypt, I was beaten up by some men because I visited an
Orthodox church while there. Why?

Regarding Democracy, well it has been an on going process for
thousands of years and it is not perfect by any means, but I
think it is the best we have at present. All the freedoms that we
are fortunate to have in America are also not always perfect
either, but again, it is better than most alternatives. We even
have the freedom to disagree and to complain, to picket and
march in disagreement without being arrested or being
questioned. I have travelled all over the world for years and am
amazed at what we have that we take for granted. For
instance, I can travel anywhere in the world that will allow me to
visit with maybe a visa only, but to most places all I have to do
is buy a ticket...no visa required. In contrast, I have a friend in
China to whom I can't even send a letter for it will be opened and read before it is delivered to him. He would love to visit
here but, the restrictions make it impossible....but if I want to go
there it would be no problem at all....and have done so twice
already. I also can travel anywhere at anytime in my country.
No ID card or proof of residence card needed. Of course there
are some ID's needed to check in at airports now days, due to
security precautions. My Chinese friend...he recently wanted to
take a driving lesson in the city where he has worked for over a
year, but because his ID card states his home residence in
another provence, he was not allowed to take the course. It is
so difficult for me to understand not having the freedoms that I
have. So, yes, I do feel I live in a free country and I can say
what ever I want to say..without retribution....but it does not
mean I can stand up in a theater and yell "FIRE" and not be
arrested for causing a disturbance.

Human Rights? I am most upset that the US has not sighed the
UN's Human Rights Accord, but I have high hopes it will be done
soon. There is a lot that is still not right here regarding human
rights, but we are getting there. The repeal of "Don't Ask Don't
Tell" is very close to being passed and Same Sex Marriage is
becoming closer to being made a law of the land.

Media? Probably true, but we have the right to watch, listen
and read what we want. It is the public that keeps them going,
so it's our fault and not the goverments fault. We have no
government run media. There are some media that I refuse to
take advantage of, but then that has it's faults too since how
can we know what is going on unless we read, listen and watch
it all. But, we do have the right to believe what we want.
We have the right to say what we want and not worry about it.
That said, Rosie O'Donnell is not someone I agree with very often.


Some times our elected officials do things that are not the
choice of the people...take Bush's declaration of war because of
his WMD misinformation and other actions such as the erroading
of our freedoms due to the Patriot Act, due to Bush's arrogance
and that of Rumsfeld and Cheney. Our leaders are there at the
will of the people and they can be removed though the ballot
box. Those in power at present just may be removed because
the people are dissatisfied and upset that promises made have
not materialized. We will see. I have faith that we will get it
right soon. It is a shame we don't have a bit more patience!

America is not perfect, and may never be, but I am happy that I
was born an American.

With regards to what luka82 said in post #6. I too, want the
anti-Muslim hysteria after 911 (I had an appointment at my bank
in the WTC that day) to be found to be wrong. I have never
known Muslims to be much different than most people of other
religions and belive in my heart that it is not the mainstream but
the fanatics that we should be against. There are fanatic in ALL
religions, and that should never be forgotten. But we usually
hear huge denouncements within a religion when some do bad
things ...which has not been heard from most Muslims since 911,
or at least not to my knowledge. Are they afraid of retrobution
and that has caused their silence?

Yes, there have been refugees in many places during the last
60+ years and I don't understand it. And, yes there are rules,
but many don't follow them. The US has been wrong on many
ocassions and other countries have been too. And yes, luka, I
am ashamed too. I have seen and experienced in person how
the Orthodox are treated in Turkey. I visited Israel and Palastine
last year and was horrified to see the huge Israeli wall separating
families from each other and their lands, then there is China and
Tibet.

Why can't we learn to get along? WE ALL, all PEOPLE and all
COUNTRIES are responsible. Let's hope one day we will do the
right thing and live in PEACE and HARMONY with each other.

Well, that is my say...sorry for such a long post...

 

[luka82]

This is in response to luka82, whom I have thought highly of for some time now.


How many Churches are in Saudi Arabia...Zero, for they are not
allowed. Mecca? Never!
In Afghanistan it is illegal, but there is 1 small church. Fortunately many Muslim nations are tolerant towards Christians
and Jews and they are allowed to practice their religion and
operate places of worship. In ancient time the 3 religions lived
in peace...what happened? In my travels I have visited and
worshiped in them over the years. However, I believe the
tollerance in the Western world is much better for Muslims than
they are for other religions in Muslim countries. For instance a
friend of mine was a Priest in Tunisia, but he was forbidden to
allow any converts to Christianity. Only newly born children to
Christian parents are allowd to be baptised as Christians. In
Egypt, I was beaten up by some men because I visited an
Orthodox church while there. Why?

Silver, but none of these countries can`t be called the lands of democracy, at least not the way The Westerners see it. I have been in touch with Muslims and The Middle East, cause I have a professional interest in both the Arabic language and Islam. Most of you have heard of The Dhimmi and Dhimmitude. From our, modern, perspective it could be seen as slavery, but Christians and Jews had at least some rights back then, yet we ignore the fact that the Christians in those times gave Muslims no rights. So when it comes to history of tollerance, Muslims have an advantage. What has happened in time, the reasons why it all changed, the Islamic law, it`s interpretation, and how the tradition of some muslims (like stoning of women) have become laws in certain Islamic states are a different subject, and can be discussed at lenght.
Under the Sharia law, Muslim is not allowed to convert. At least that`s what I have been taught.

Well, that is my say...sorry for such a long post...

Please, do not apologise, I have really enjoyed your post. :smile:

 

[ghb69]

You have one hell of a memory... you should go into politics.:smile:

Yeah thats me living in the waterfront mansion by myself now because granny passed away last summer at age 94.

Still unemployed and can't find a job anywhere. This economy SUX!

Do you take in boarders???

 

[helgaleena]

Do you take in boarders???

Excellent suggestion to jeepguy! Life has handed you real estate instead of lemons...

Back on topic, Luka asked an excellent question and it has gotten a great response. But I am no friend of Thomas Jefferson the slave holder and Indian exterminator. So I don't much care whether he would be appalled by the state of the USA now. Ben Franklin, maybe. He proposed the turkey for national bird, you know.

 

[luka82]

...Back on topic, Luka asked an excellent question and it has gotten a great response...

I am really enjoying this thread. I love the answers. I have always enjoyed when people describe perception of their own country. Wheather it`s good or bad, as long as it`s well arguemented.

 

[Drifterwood]

Can I refer anyone interested to the Thrasymachus "might is right" debate in Book 1 of Plato's Republic. The historical context of this debate is also fascinating.

Whilst I personally won't have Jefferson on any pedestal because of his wholly abhorrent racism, I think his warning to history regarding the overbearing power of big business is important.

I wouldn't stop economies of scale to deliver competitiveness, but there needs to be a counter balance in terms of local control. Business should contribute and be regulated at the points of exploitation.

 

[D_Sir Fitzwilly Wankheimer III]

I come from the country that has perceived USA as the leader of the free world, at least since the Milosevic`s regime has come to an end in 2000. The leader of world`s democracy.
But questions like "Don`t ask, don`t tell", gay teen suicides, the WikiLeaks affair (actually the attempts to shut down that site), The Mosque at Ground Zero, Iraq, Afghanistan- I`d say a mass anti-islam hysteria, has shed a different light on my USA perspective.
I ask you people, do you feel like you are living in a free country?
Are you free to say what you want and what you see as the truth without the system`s retaliation?
Are democracy and human rights myths? Do they just serve to bring the regimes down? Do the countries that impose the question of Human Rights respect those rights themselves?
PS There is a link on youtube where Rosie O`Donnell says on The View that all media in The USA are controled by 4 big companies. Is that true?
I, personally, believe in human rights. I`m a pacifist. I survived war, bombs and all that shit. And I have seen what it brings. And I want to live in a free world.

Of course if Rosie said it, It has to be true!

 

[D_Davy_Downspout]

America was never the greatest country. Just rich and powerful. Apparently our PR was effective, though.

 

[HUNGHUGE11X7]

I ask you people, do you feel like you are living in a free country?

Hell NO, but at least we are no longer living under a Theocratic Nazi Regime like when BUSH& co were in office!

Are you free to say what you want and what you see as the truth without the system`s retaliation?

For the most part yes, Hell I have even blessed out OBAMA on Twitter and I am still alive !!!


Are democracy and human rights myths? Do they just serve to bring the regimes down? Do the countries that impose the question of Human Rights respect those rights themselves?

I don't think so NO... Just some countries take Democracy more seriously and true to heart, like CANADA and several nations in EU!

PS There is a link on youtube where Rosie O`Donnell says on The View that all media in The USA are controled by 4 big companies. Is that true?

ABSOLUTELY 100% TRUE and the fukin idiots who voted in this last midterm made that even a truer statement.

I, personally, believe in human rights. I`m a pacifist. I survived war, bombs and all that shit. And I have seen what it brings. And I want to live in a free world.

I am as well and I will forever dream of this Utopia but so many things work against us, first it was the Government with BUSH & co and now it's our enemies, those who are so damn jealous of our perceived Democracy and have become violent to harm us at any way possible !
I HAD great hope with OBAMA but now I see he is nothing more than a hypocrite led by POLITICS more so than PRINCIPALS !!!
I don't entirely blame him and I still have hope and wish him only the best but the first two years have clearly shown me TWO THINGS !

1, He is full of good intentions and definitely wants to do what is best for the country even through the fukin constant obstruction and

2, He does NOT have the backbone to stand up to the obstructionists, even when Americans are on HIS side !!! WE MADE the great social choice but the POLITICALLY WRONG ONE ! CLINTON would've NEVER endured bending over and being constantly fucked by the REPUGNICANS like OBAMA has.

He talks a great game and means well but he's NO FIGHTER !!!


~HH~

 

[HUNGHUGE11X7]

Helgs but over 600,000 dead Iraqi people and no weapons of mass destruction is not only stupidity it`s genocide.

That is precisely what it is and NOTHING MORE... we illegally invaded a nation that did nothing to us and KILLED Hundreds of Thousands of Innocent lives all in the name of hypocritically promoting Democracy when the true motivation was greed. Countries have been attempting to arrest the marketeers of the genocide but have been thwarted every way by the dumb ass OBAMA admin. When I found out the OBAMA admin. had the fukin audacity to THREATEN SPAIN if they attempted to arrest BUSH & CHENEY I lost more respect for some one in one day than I have in a real damn long time. I cannot support someone who purports to be Democratic while protecting WAR CRIMINALS !
I see what all my friends have been telling me, that he was the lesser of 2 evils .
I don't believe for a minute he's a secret muslim or any of the other stupid bullshit the Right-wing fanatics feed you to mask their undefined Racism!
It is a little fukin far fetched to think that someone who had their birth announcement in the local newspaper on the day he was born in HAWAII is a covert threatening to overthrow our mock Democracy!!!!
Personally I don't see how the fuck these idiots have enough sense to breathe -in oxygen without being given directions !
What I do see is someone I supported and campaigned for who has disillusioned me and has proven to be just another politician. Protecting war criminals might have been the straw the broke the donkey's back !!!


~HH~

 

[JackWyatt76]

What happened in Iraq should have never happened.

 

[dandelion]

now. Ben Franklin, maybe. He proposed the turkey for national bird, you know.

Made me laugh, anyway. As an ignorant brit I think I heard that one before, but its aptness waxes and wanes.