To my American friends.

B_crackoff

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Excellent suggestion to jeepguy! Life has handed you real estate instead of lemons...

Back on topic, Luka asked an excellent question and it has gotten a great response. But I am no friend of Thomas Jefferson the slave holder and Indian exterminator. So I don't much care whether he would be appalled by the state of the USA now. Ben Franklin, maybe. He proposed the turkey for national bird, you know.

Jefferson was far & away the most intelligent occupant of any political post - ever!

It's never a good idea to apply the morality of today, which itself will not be the morality of tomorrow, to situations of the past.

He certainly had misgivings where his observations were limited, & is there even one acre of earth in the world that has not been subjected to forced conquest.

The truths he revealed in his writing are ever relevant in whatever time, magnificently constructed, easily comprehendable, & are applicable to things which underly the ability to have universal freedoms.

The US would be less than half its size were it not for him, & if you believe that the US aboriginals were forced off land legally theirs, then please send back the title deeds of the North Eastern states back to HM QE2!
 

helgaleena

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The US would be less than half its size were it not for him, & if you believe that the US aboriginals were forced off land legally theirs, then please send back the title deeds of the North Eastern states back to HM QE2!

The deeds rightfully belong to my children and their relatives, the ones who have survived Jeffersonian style assaults on their negotiated treaty rights which have been unilaterally abrogated by this nation.
 

B_crackoff

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The deeds rightfully belong to my children and their relatives, the ones who have survived Jeffersonian style assaults on their negotiated treaty rights which have been unilaterally abrogated by this nation.

Hmm! Explain lawful rights to the to the tribes that preceded them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They got whipped by industrious immigrants who wanted it more. It's happened everywhere in the world! The weak are superceded by the strong & clever.

Anyway, from what I can gather from the numerous treaties from 1722-1812 much was lawfully signed away to the UK in recognition of claims elsewhere, & against competing nations.

I don't see any movement to kick the saxons out of England, the Turks out of Turkey, or the Franks out of France. What is the difference to the US situation? The same broken promises & bloodshed formed the country.
 

Calboner

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:hmmm:

Though I'm starting with the Normans. Your turn will come. :smile:
You don't frighten us, English pig-dogs! Go and boil your bottoms, sons of a silly person! I blow my nose at you, so-called Arthur King, you and all your silly English knnnnnniggets!
 

helgaleena

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I know a fellow in Derby who wants to bring back Mercia in the worst way :tongue: Les Etats Unis is too large to govern efficiently and the rights of minorities need protection because a minority-- rich white people-- currently hold the reins. They just got their tax cuts, too. My children just belong to a different, poorer minority.
 

B_jeepguy2

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Helgs but over 600,000 dead Iraqi people and no weapons of mass destruction is not only stupidity it`s genocide.
I was avare that my country was attempting to ethnically cleanse Kosovo, I was so ashamed, I still am. They didn`t have the right to kill people in my name. It` s something we still live with. Some sick bastards still think it`s the act of patriotism, and ignore the numbers of dead Albanians.
The democratic goverment still has to cope with the horrors of our past.
On the other hand 250,000 Serbs were cleansed from Croatia and the USA did nothing. Many of those people still live like refugees.
Ethnical cleansing is ethical cleansing, death is death.
My point is, if we have rules, why don`t we have the same rules for everybody.

There are a lot of us here in the USA who are ashamed of what our government is doing in Iraq including many of the soldiers who have been over there. When I saw the leaked "collateral murder" video of the Apache helicopter machine gunning the Reuters camera crew with a 30mm cannon and laughing about it I was so disgusted I thought I was going to puke.
 

dandelion

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yay, well at least the US government is determined to send the person responsible for telling us about it to jail forever. Wonder what will happen to the gunners?