Torture at Guantanamo was used to produce an Iraq-al Qaeda link

Discussion in 'Politics' started by D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    This is a barnburner of a story breaking from McClatchy New Services (also culled from the Senate report) by the excellent Jonathan Landay:


    Report: Abusive tactics used to seek Iraq-al Qaida link

    WASHINGTON — The Bush administration applied relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist.

    Such information would've provided a foundation for one of former President George W. Bush's main arguments for invading Iraq in 2003. In fact, no evidence has ever been found of operational ties between Osama bin Laden's terrorist network and Saddam's regime.


    Report: Abusive tactics used to seek Iraq-al Qaida link | McClatchy


    Understand what this is saying. We've been told that the "enhanced interrogation techniques" used at Guantanamo were to provide "intel". A U.S. intelligence official and an Army psychiatrist are now saying that torture was used to coerce confessions -- to provide the Bush administration the needed Al-Qaeda/Saddam Hussein link that would justify a planned war in Iraq.

    Cheney and Rumsfeld demanded that the interrogators find evidence of an al Qaida-Iraq collaboration. This was even before we invaded, the report says.

    As part of the quest for a rationale to invade.

    The sources say:

    "There was constant pressure on the intelligence agencies and the interrogators to do whatever it took to get that information out of the detainees, especially the few high-value ones we had, and when people kept coming up empty, they were told by Cheney's and Rumsfeld's people to push harder."

    "Cheney's and Rumsfeld's people were told repeatedly, by CIA . . . and by others, that there wasn't any reliable intelligence that pointed to operational ties between bin Laden and Saddam, and that no such ties were likely because the two were fundamentally enemies, not allies."



    Many leaked memos and recently declassified memos and reports and eyewitness accounts are FINALLY coming together to fill in the pieces of this puzzle.


    Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld were trumping up either fake or coerced confessions in order to justify an Iraqi invasion.


    This is just the beginning. More will be revealed....
     
  2. SpeedoMike

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    so? after 9/11, what are we supposed to do to protect the millions of citizens in the USA.
     
  3. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    SpeedoMike:

    You aren't getting the jist of the new information.

    After 9/11 and before we invaded Iraq, the Bush administration (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld) instructed interrogators to FIND AN IRAQ-AL QAEDA LINK.

    At this time, they were still using "tradtional" methods of interrogation (the legal kind). When detainess would not provide a connection between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda (because there wasn't any), Cheney and Rumsfeld started devising "enhanced" interrogations techniques -- like hanging the detainee from the ceiling, sleep deprivation, waterboarding -- in order to coerce confessions, real, fake or otherwise. Enhanced interrogation techniques were introduced to Guantanamo (military), and to the CIA by Cheney and Rumsfeld specifically because the old ways of interrogation weren't providing information, confessions, to justify a planned war in Iraq.


    I'm not sure if people understand that all kinds of information, a torrent of information, is currently being released that is finally providing CLARITY. Clear, easy to understand pieces of this whole puzzle. In 2002, suddenly all our legal ways of obtaining information changed. We suddenly, practically overnight, got attack dogs. Prolonged nudity. Boxed confinements. Waterboarding. Sexual improprieties. Stress positions. Hanging from the ceiling. Deaths were recorded. Illegal torture was introduced to the United States military and CIA, according to the new reports, to specifically elicit confessions from detainees, "evidence" that Hussein was in cahoots with Al-Qaeda, because Bush & Cheney needed it (and didn't have it) in order to invade Iraq.
     
  4. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Actually, Cheney & Rumsfeld were trying to plot a scheme to attack Iraq going as far back as the late 80s. When you put all of the pieces together, it all comes together into one very ugly picture.

    Context of 'Late 1990: Defense Secretary Cheney Helps Plan Iraq Invasion'

    And notice how their tones went from "We don't torture" to, "Let the American People know our successes from using it" once the evidence was leaked? This is gonna be better than the OJ Simpson trial.
     
  5. D_Tully Tunnelrat

    D_Tully Tunnelrat New Member

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    Indeed, but this time the gloves will fit.
     
  6. B_Nick8

    B_Nick8 New Member

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    Oh, Will. It's all true but then again, you're a tortured person.

    You're incredibly earnest, but is there any joy in you whatsoever? Ever? I wonder.
     
    #6 B_Nick8, Apr 23, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
  7. Bbucko

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    Not only is it true, but it's no surprise to anyone who watched the days after 9/11 unfold with anything other than blind nationalistic blood-lust.

    Andrew Sullivan devotes pages and pages to this, each time more "shocked" than the last. I'm a fan of the Daily Dish (not necessarily because I agree with everything he writes, but because his topics interest me greatly), but my well of outrage is getting near dry. But his talent for outraged self-righteousness is vast, and I try to remain as reality-based as I can be. We've lived with denial quite long enough, thanks.

    As I predicted elsewhere, I believe that there will be a special prosecutor sometime before Christmas, and some form of "Truth and Reconciliation" commission thereafter. There will be blood on everyone's hands: Nancy Pelosi was briefed on everything as it was happening, and her main concern was if the "enhanced interrogation" techniques we were borrowing from Communist China, Fascist Germany and the Khmer Rouge's Cambodia were harsh enough.

    The fact is that the powers that be forgot that there's a higher moral standard that is part of the whole concept of American Exceptionalism. It's a stain on the country I love, and the country my ancestors fought to establish and defend from enemies inside and out. But we own it.

    I also predict that at least one of the biggest fish will swim away unscathed, probably several. There will be much scapegoating and cries of "politicizing" all this (as if they aren't as saturated in politics as they are in blood). You cannot begin to heal until you recognize that you are sick, and I think that moment's a long way off for those who authorized the flouting of the rule of law and (at the very least) The Geneva Convention.

    The soul of my country was put up on the auction block to cheap jingoism and fear. It needs to be taken back. It will take time and not everyone is going to like how it goes down. We live in a very messy democracy that is flawed as any human construct is, and the emerging consensus will, hopefully, be enough to move us forward and past this eventually.

    But do not expect that all the heads you want will be delivered on pikes. It's not gonna happen.
     
  8. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    Is there a need to constantly crusade for the rights of terrorists? Most of these harmful extremist lunatics lived a more enjoyable life in Gitmo than in Iraq/Afghan.

    These people are poisonous insects that murder and annihilate innocent civilians for the sake of fucking 42 virgins in the afterlife.

    Step up and increase the severity of the torture techniques and hopefully it will deter future acts of terror.

    These people are insane animals of destruction and perpetrators of atrocities and violent acts - and almost always on innocent people.

    The world is much better off without them. They are despicable creatures.
     
  9. tripod

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    Star, the problem is that in our zeal to protect ourselves and the citizens of America... we have been torturing innocent people. Most of the actionable intel that we have received through our "enhanced" interrogation methods has fingered the personal enemies of those who have been "interrogated". PERSONAL ENEMIES Star... are you understanding what I am saying? We are rounding up the innocent enemies of those we have captured before. Hell, we can't ever try these men in a court of fucking law to find out if they are guilty or innocent because they have been tortured for crying out loud!

    Now, not everyone who has been tortured is innocent, don't get me wrong. But how many innocent people must we torture so that we get to torture the actual "bad guys"? How many Star? You don't give a fuck because you see Muslims as your enemy in the modern crusade... you also see them as less than human, so if innocent Muslims get tortured... you don't GIVE A FUCK!

    Am I right Star? Do you hate Muslims? Don't answer the question... we all know that you do. Your conservative buddies on this site all hate muslims except for Wild Goose Chase.

    Now, Islam is as strict a religion as they come... and has managed to stay the same for hundreds of years. It is a religion that resists change and is still as backwards as it was when it formed. Christianity has managed to sort of change with the times, but don't forget the Spanish Inquistion where the Christian church acted like the devil incarnate as it inflicted it's horrors on the "heathens", who were all innocent people. Does the term witch hunt mean anything to you?

    I am from Chicago and grew up with plenty of Muslim kids and their families... they are just as beautiful as any other humans and they have a right to live in peace.

    Torture does not fucking work... it belies common sense.
     
  10. oralhijinks

    oralhijinks Member

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    The aims and motivation of AQ and the Iraqi government were at odds. It would have been a very unlikely partnership and one not lost on the intelligence community. A more conducive arrangement would have been between Iran and AQ which may or may not exist as the primary relationship with AQ is Taliban. Unfortunately, even when the intel is spot on and the analysis is accurate, how it is received by those who execute policy is a matter of interpretation. People see what they want to see. If the intel is not what they want, the analysts are often reminded they are just analysts and the intel is discounted. But, take a bit of optimistic intel from here and a bit from there and soon you have a picture of what is wanted. It's the nature of the beast. Every person in power rarely takes a position without adding their own perspective.

    Outright torture has never been shown to produce reliable results (there is an entire history of evidence). Tactics must be much more subtle. Generating good intel from prisoners is a psychological game not an exercise in pain management. The Army special forces often work with people called civil affairs officers. These guys are the one's who know how to massage information out of people without resorting to breaking bones.
     
  11. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    I don't hate Muslims or any other religion or ethnicity. I hate terrorists. I hate people that perpetrate heinous and violent crimes on innocent civilians.

    Within different factions of Islamic extremists, there are enemies of one another; however they share their hatred of the U.S. - its a common denominator. Many of the 'enemies' that you speak of have still been involved in cells and terroristic planning against us. I believe that there are far less 'innocent' people that have been subjected to torture than you are led to believe by the left.

    Do you think that our military and intelligence groups are so incredibly inept that they are just capturing librarians and gardeners and torturing them to death? The expansive and incredibly advanced capabilities of our intelligence efforts provide us with amazingly strong data and important links within the terrorist cells.
     
  12. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

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    Never would I have thought you would paint such an accurate picture of Cheney. Good job! :rolleyes: :biggrin1:
     
  13. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    You should rent the movie 'W'

    Their portrayal of Cheney is right up your alley. They of course, also make Bush look like a buffoon. Josh Brolin has got Bush down-pat exactly.
     
  14. tripod

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    I haven't been led to believe anything... there are many concrete examples of the U.S. torturing PLENTY of innocent detainees. I don't have beliefs on this matter, the facts speak for themselves.

    Yes, and it has been proven that this is what is going on. The American military has very little intelligence in the Middle East. We don't have anywhere near enough translators... how are we supposed to know what is going on when we don't even fucking understand the language or culture for that matter. When we round up suspects, jail them and subject them to torture... we gain only the intelligence that the detainees want us to hear.

    If someone tortures me, then I will do all that I can to provide them with the false intelligence that will make them look like bungling sadists and ruin their operation's chance of success. I would do so because of the burning hatred that would be instilled in me from the barbaric torturous actions of my captors.

    It is common sense that torture does not work. Use your head Star.

    You have been drinking too much defense department kool-aid and have an almost child-like view of our country's military intelligence capabilities.
     
  15. Trinity

    Trinity New Member

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    The Democratically controlled congressed could have impeached Bush and held Cheney accountable. They refused to do it. Congressman Dennis Kucinich tried and Pelosi refused to let it out of committee. This whole phony outrage on the part of Dems in congress is ridiculous. They could have done something before Bush left office. They could have stopped the interrogation techniques. They did nothing. Obama won't persue...then Obama is open to persuing...then Obama will leave it to the Attorney General :rolleyes:...whatever...Holder works for him...Obama is President...finally Obama will veto a Truth Commission. Obama made a major mistake.

    Obama should have abolished any interrogation techniques he deemed improper and never declassified the memos. And for the Obama Administration to assert they had to because of a lawsuit is bogus. There are executive decisions that should not be discussed and debated in the public realm to protect national security. This was one of them.

    Obama weakened himself and his party through their own culpability.
     
  16. Calboner

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    To the OP: big fucking surprise. Who would ever have thought that the GWB administration would not only order torture, but order it with the aim of obtaining statements to confirm its preconceived opinions? NOOOO!!

    How about doing things that are actually effective, rather than starting a war on false pretexts and using torture to generate bogus confirmation of the false pretext?

    Or maybe you think that as long as we are killing people in other countries, we must be protecting ourselves?
    Approximately 750 people have been held prisoner at Guantánamo. To describe them all as "terrorists" is a ludicrous piece of ignorance. Only a small number were ever involved in terrorism. Most were just rounded up in Afghanistan for the bounty paid by US forces. This isn't even controversial.
     
  17. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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    Nick8 writes:

    Oh, Will. It's all true but then again, you're a tortured person.

    You're incredibly earnest, but is there any joy in you whatsoever? Ever? I wonder.

    --------------------

    Nick, I'm sorry for being such a downer lately. I'm incredibly interested in all the leaked and declassified information and how all this new info is coming together and dovetailing.

    Even if no prosecutions result, there is at least this beautiful liberating aspect that the whole story will now be revealed. We can all breathe now - justice, in theory, just by having the entire run up to the war exposed, will prevail. (The sun seems to shine a little brighter with this in mind.... I hear birds chirping outside... the architects of war will not prevail!) -- It's worth the price of admission alone to now watch Dick Cheney (who is writing a book, desperately trying to defend his "legacy") twist and squirm as new torture memos emerge. The whole idea of "enhanced interrogation techniques" (ie, torture) as a legitimate means of obtaining actionable intel is now under fire.


    Oh. And we have come out of the darkness and into the light. Obama is sane. Obama is not going to plan a pre-emptive invasion of a country - and then torture suspected terrorists in order to coerce confessions as a justification for the proposed invasion.

    It's liberating. I feel like I'm a 10-year-old kid again running barefoot through the sprinkler on the damp green grass.

    Wait. -- What is that sound? I think the musical Gods are sending us their approval.... I believe I hear Judy and Barbra singing in the distance....

    YouTube - Judy Garland Barbra Streisand Duet - Get Happy / Happy Days Are Here Again
     
    #17 D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Apr 23, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2009
  18. Qua

    Qua
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    Precisely what I was about to write.

    Willtom, this is no "barnburner of a story." It's the farthest thing from it. It's fucking obvious.
     
  19. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

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  20. B_starinvestor

    B_starinvestor New Member

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    Shep had too much coffee before that piece.
     
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