TOS Suggestions anyone?

Discussion in 'Et Cetera, Et Cetera' started by ManlyBanisters, Jun 19, 2007.

  1. ManlyBanisters

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    The Mods generally do a good job as far as I can see - I certainly wouldn't change places with them for money- never mind do it for free! But maybe things would be easier for them, and clearer for all of us, if we gave them a little feedback.

    I know - I know - most of you are bored of this - but a mod in another thread suggest that member feedback on the TOS would be useful to them - so here we are.

    Read this if you haven't already - any comments, are the TOS clear? - any suggestions, is there something you would add, take out. Do you think the TOS as it stands is fair - interpreted correctly?

    Here's a few thoughts on a subject I've been barracking about for a few days now :wink:

    Multiple accounts and banning because of them are very grey areas.

    1/ How do you close an account - you can't I don't think. There is no option on the CP that says close my account with a subsequent a/c closed sign appearing under your name. This could lead to chaos: idiots starting a new account every day etc, apart from the fact that it makes the board look bad from the owner's perspective I imagine.

    2/ This leads to a major problem for the mods to know when one ac is closed and another active. What is concurrent posting? a day, a week, a month between uses? can people then go back to a previous name if the reason they left it has passed?

    3/ Being disruptive or trolling through multiple accounts will remain a subjective decision and one that is based upon information that only the mods have.

    It's grey, it's open to be messy.
     
  2. ManlyBanisters

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    Thanks K - I bunged this in here because, until the other day, I never went into the help desk forum and if that is true for me, maybe it is for others too. Thought having this here might just cast the net a little wider.
     
  3. Lex

    Lex
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    I think that the current version of the ToS is pretty clear if you have been a part of any internet forum. There is always room for improvement and certain things (like trolling) will always be open to interpretation.

    That is one of the reasons the enforcement policies are designed so that it takes a majority vote of the moderators to enforce ToS violations. If 7 out of 10 Mods agree that you are trolling, then you are trolling.

    Lex-former Mod.
     
  4. D_alex8

    D_alex8 Member

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    Point (2) needn't be a grey area at all if the poster in question simply engages their brain. The first time they log in with the new ID, they can PM a mod immediately to let them know they've changed ID for whatever reason (indeed, a few posters have managed this mental leap on their own in the past).

    Should the poster then intend to revert to an old ID, they could always PM the mods to let them know about this, so the mods could discuss it. Personally, I'd say that sticking to 1 ID is much simpler for everyone involved, though...

    Point (3) is surely a question of whether one intends to mislead with one's new ID. Posting about one's other persona(e) in the third person, for example, is clearly intended to mislead. Claiming to be 18 on one ID, and 47 on another (or any other such glaring discrepancies) is likewise intended to mislead. Thus, it is definitely an attempt to disrupt normal board procedures imho, by extending the 'one member, one voice' rule expounded in the TOS, to give oneself multiple voices.

    For LPSG, point (3) will always give long-term members cause to think of DoubleMeatWhopper, one of the board's most prolific posters for several years. His whole ID was a fraud, and he then used another of his multiple personae to announce his death to the board, before then returning with yet another ID while many here were in mourning, presenting himself as a 19-year-old n00b in the new ID. Thus, any attempt to use multiple IDs to present a 'false image' of oneself and/or to claim 'multiple voices' for oneself, is unlikely to 'sit' well with many longer-term inmates, erm, members.
     
  5. B_Cocktale

    B_Cocktale New Member

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    Yes.

    From what I've observed to date the mod par excellence is Kotchanski and with her keeping the balance LPSG is in good shape.

    I will say that I think the inclination to attack an unpopular stance on a topic is a bit troubling since the site (at least in implication) attempts to posture itself as liberal and free-thinking.

    That said I'm encouraged to see the place exists at all in a world wide web of uninspired regurgitation of the status quo for the most part.
     
  6. biguy2738

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    This post is for members objecting to this thread and not the mods, I've pm'ed my input and suggestions to them.

    The biggest problem with the ToS is though they try to foster a sense of freedom, openness etc, such an approach when laying out rules aren't helpful. It leaves things open to interpretation and clearly leaves an attitude of them being a suggestion box instead of being rules. Rules are rules, boundaries are boundaries and they need to be presented in that way.

    (Reference to the ToS) Please read them CAREFULLY and abide by them whenever possible

    This part alone in the introduction creates a huge area of grey as it creates the impression of members not being bound by the rules. It creates a sense of: "We'd like for you to obey the rules, but if you aren't always able to, it's also fine, we'll understand."

    If I want to join a gym, lease a property most everyday parts of life...I have to take out a contract. Regardless of whether I am paying for the service or the company needs my business - I am given a contract which I have to sign before anything further takes place...and there aren't any additional extras or the option of making some clauses optional. They are what they are take it or leave.

    We aren't bound to pay membership fees here, all the more reason and right for this site to lay down the law and demand that the rules be obeyed.

    That's my opinion.
     
  7. D_alex8

    D_alex8 Member

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    Yep, I agree that deleting the final two words from that construction would be a beneficial (and easily implemented) move to eradicate the ambiguity of the current statement.
     
  8. Lex

    Lex
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    If each of us simply took personal responsibility for our OWN following of the ToS, none of these threads would even need explaining.

    Alex8 has several great points.
     
  9. fortiesfun

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    A short section explaining how to abandon (because closing isn't possible) one account and opening another with moderator notification and approval might be very helpful. That would then allow the section on having only one active account per person to be strengthened.
     
  10. Lex

    Lex
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    There is a thread in the Help Desk section about deleting an account.

    Just saying is all.
     
  11. Freddie53

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    From time to time, a member can be stalked by member or non member and needs a new name to protect themselves. Obviously that can't be explained. And there are other extenuating circumstances. I'm sure that is why the "whenever possible" is there though I don't remember now the actual circumstances. But words like "whenever possible" aren't really needed if there are mods there to interpret situations. It goes without saying that all rules are "whenever possible." If it is not possible, then of course the rule won't be followed. So I agree with that point those two words just add confussion.

    Thanks for that suggestion.

    It pleases me that members are taking the time to study and make suggestions. It will only strengthen this site and make the ToS stronger. We mods need to hear how the ToS reads to someone who doesn't have all the prior knowledge and built in assumptions.

    Thanks guys.

    Freddie
     
  12. snoozan

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    I really enjoy the Phallix glass dildos, but if you're not into glass, try the Hitachi Wand-- especially if you want some mind-blowing clitoral orgasms. My husband really likes the FleshLight, and I've heard nothing but good about it.

    Oh wait, this is "TOS Suggestions Anyone?", not "TOYS Suggestions Anyone?" isn't it?

    Whoops.
     
  13. Big Dreamer

    Big Dreamer New Member

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    Just make sure your child doesn't fuck up and bring Dad's 'flashlight' to school for Show&Tell, not to mention Mom's 'magic wand'. I would love to be a fly on the wall for the ensuing parent/teacher pow-wow. :biggrin1:
     
  14. fortiesfun

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    Of course, but if you don't know that you are supposed to delete an account, how do you know to go there? I think it would helpful to put it plainly in the TOS, but that is just my opinion.
     
  15. PussyWellington

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    Ha! Yes, it really is that simple. There should be less laws, not more laws.
     
  16. Lex

    Lex
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    You assume that people READ the ToS? :rolleyes: For SHAME, Doc.

    I have said for Years that the ToS should pop up upon your first log in (and again whenever it is revised) like an Acceptable User Agreement, so that everyone has to click on is and say that they agree.

    Therefore, when rules are broken and enforced, no one could point fingers or say that they did not get it.
     
  17. fortiesfun

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    Now THAT is a great suggestion.
     
  18. ManlyBanisters

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    That's fair enough and all - but all you need to sign up here is an email address - no one has any way of knowing I am what I say I am regardless of how many accounts I choose to try to operate. That's not fraud - that's the nature of this internet. It's only fraud if I use it to try and con someone into meeting me, or doing something IRL, or giving me something. All the shit that flies around in the ether needs to be assumed to be bollocks until otherwise proven. If you come on to any forum and take everyone at face value you will have egg on your face before long. I'm not saying that is right - I'm saying that it the way it is.

    But I'm drifting off topic - My point - the ToS does not reflect Mod practice - while a member should be able to 'engage brain', as you put it, and work it out - surely it would be better for all and sundry if the unwritten rules got written down for us thickos.
     
  19. Lex

    Lex
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    As a former Mod I can say that this is categorically untrue. What happpens is that some members do not like it when people they like get banned or break rules and are caught. HUGE difference.
     
  20. D_alex8

    D_alex8 Member

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    I would agree that this is a point in need of disambiguation within the wording of the TOS. Indeed, when the current TOS were submitted to the membership for comments in December 2006, it was one of the few things that raised any negative feedback, precisely along the lines of your argument. [link to thread]

    Prepstudinsc clarified the ambiguous wording within that thread:
    However, the wording was never changed within the actual TOS. Novice_btm raised precisely the same point that you are currently, on Christmas Eve 2006:
    So, clearly it might now indeed be time to remove the 'discouraged' remark from the TOS.

    My terse phrases are part of my charm. :cool: :rolleyes:
    The above reads like an attempt to validate ChicagoSam's behavior. So I'll address that issue head-on (since it's clearly the unspoken 'pink elephant' in many, if not all, of these current threads). He was a reasonably long-term member who had imho witnessed sufficient multi-ID bannings here to be aware that multiple IDs constituted a problem. Posting under another ID in the third person about himself on a thread all about his not being here... if that's not disruption, I don't know what is. The tone of the thread may well have been lighthearted and frivolous, but essentially it served to augment ChicagoSam's reputation on the boards through the use of 'multiple voices'. And allowing that to pass unchecked would establish an unpleasant precedent here.

    If it really never occurred to him that using multiple IDs to effectively 'promote' himself further on the boards might be a problem, and this really needs to be spelt out in the TOS, then I'm sure the mods will be able to accommodate this by 'firming up' the relevant paragraph.

    It goes without saying that the internet is full of bullshit. But any measures which can be taken to help reduce the 'bullshit quotient' (i.e. disallowing multiple user accounts) should surely be welcomed with open arms. I don't think we disagree on that point anyway.


    What I will add, though, is this: a major underlying issue here is one of general membership apathy; the same kind of apathy which causes problems in getting people to vote in elections, etc. The thread I linked to above from December 2006 regarding the wording of the new TOS... has been looked at just 354 times as of this posting. Which is pathetic. The amount of times this thread has been looked at is likewise an exercise in minimalism, as indeed is the number of times that the TOS themselves have been clicked on.

    Most people are online for a 'quick fix' and don't give a shit about the workings of the TOS or the mod squad. Perhaps that's understandable, as it's the nature of the medium to offer 'quick relief with no questions asked'. But I *do* think having the TOS thrust in people's faces at sign-up would at least be a useful (albeit tokenistic) gesture at ensuring members are aware of their existence, if nothing else. Of course, you are right that a few 'retouches' to the wording wouldn't go amiss, in order to remove the ambiguities that currently exist.
     
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