Toxic Masculinity

HorseHung40's

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Wake up, people. That is not a challenge to anything. It is a ploy to make money, disguised as a challenge.

That t-shirt cost $1 to produce. It was have sold it to the public for $200 normally. Because it has a supposedly provocative caption, it retails for $500.

Who would buy this, you might ask: A person in need of social validation by equally insecure and vapid people.
 

spaj8987

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Here's a little bit about the term.

[The concept of toxic masculinity is used in psychology and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying and aggression.

Self-reliance and emotional repression are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse. Toxic masculine traits are characteristic of the unspoken code of behavior among men in American prisons, where they exist in part as a response to the harsh conditions of prison life.

Other traditionally masculine traits such as devotion to work, pride in excelling at sports, and providing for one's family, are not considered to be "toxic". The concept was originally used by authors associated with the mythopoetic men's movement such as Shepherd Bliss to contrast stereotypical notions of masculinity with a "real" or "deep" masculinity that they say men have lost touch with in modern society.
]

As a man i don't get emotional when people talk about toxic masculinity because i'm confident in the knowledge that they aren't talking about me. Or at least not when i'm being a total dick to people for no reason. Which is very very rare but it does happen.

Becoming aware of things you've learned and ingrained into yourself is difficult. It's even more difficult to understand it. And even more difficult to deal with. I think over the years i've been doing a pretty good job of it. Though i would imagine most men think that. I mean we do indeed have thousands upon thousands of years of sexism to get off us. Which isn't an easy thing to do.

Which is why so many men get very emotional at just the words toxic masculinity. They're afraid of change. Afraid of losing power. Afraid of losing privilege. Of not being accepted. Of being rejected.

The problem is though, they never actually had power to begin with. Lies sure but not power, influence or real confidence. If you don't need to knock someone else down to make yourself feel better that's a kind of power. A kind of influence. Real confidence. What people would call masculinity.

If though, you need women to always be wrong. Need women to always be inferior. Or need them to be either at any point. That's toxic masculinity. Toxic because it's like a n acid. Not only does it erode the people it's directed at but it also eats at the person directing it too.

Hence why most men who subscribe to it can never ever exist without attacking others. Can very rarely even begin to explain themselves. Make excuses very often. Ignore history. Give the middle finger to logic and so on. Not attacking people makes them feel weak. Explaining themselves instead of making excuses would lead them away from their toxic behavior. Same goes for paying attention to history. And the same especially goes for their attempts to be logical or more logical.

The second they step out of their comfort zone. The world becomes insanely scary. So they run back to the safest place they can find. Sexism. It isn't the only thing they run back to mind you. But for the purposes of this thread we'll leave it at that.
 

Canbe

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@spaj Your contradicting yourself when saying 'Or at least when I'm not being a total dick to people for no reason'. I know it's a figure of speech but it's not something that should not be used anymore especially when talking about toxic masculinity. It just makes their argument more reliable and proving their point.
 

spaj8987

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@spaj Your contradicting yourself when saying 'Or at least when I'm not being a total dick to people for no reason'. I know it's a figure of speech but it's not something that should not be used anymore especially when talking about toxic masculinity. It just makes their argument more reliable and proving their point.

That's not a contradiction. Sometimes when i think or know i'm right about something i lean into or towards toxic masculinity. Instead of continuing to tell them why they're wrong or why i think they're wrong in a mature and adult way i'll drag myself into the dick measuring contest. Start insulting them in as many ways possible. And sometimes really try to hurt their feelings.

Doesn't happen often. Though i do do it. During those times if someone were talking about toxic masculinity then they would also be talking about me. So yeah, it's valid. When i'm being a dick it is in fact toxic masculinity.
 

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Sometimes when i think or know i'm right about something i lean into or towards toxic masculinity. Instead of continuing to tell them why they're wrong or why i think they're wrong in a mature and adult way i'll drag myself into the dick measuring contest. Start insulting them in as many ways possible. And sometimes really try to hurt their feelings.

Do you believe that behavior to be exclusive to males?
 

GoingOnABoeing

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Not at all but the topic is toxic masculinity.

Ok. Well if it applies to both genders then I don't think we can refer to it as toxic masculinity. Let's just call it being obnoxious. That seems pretty gender neutral.
 

spaj8987

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Ok. Well if it applies to both genders then I don't think we can refer to it as toxic masculinity. Let's just call it being obnoxious. That seems pretty gender neutral.

Ah but it applies in different ways. Seeing as how sexism has created a world in which men hold i'd say a good 99.98% of positions of power. And pretty much dictate their own suffering as well as others. Not only are the factors dealing with it different but if you were to even try to say toxic femininity were a thing then it would take a massive backseat to toxic masculinity.

Since men basically rule the world.
 

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Have a question regarding the topic. Does toxic masculinity include Mens cock outline being visible through their pants in public and women having penis envy or that has nothing to do with it.
 
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@spaj8987 nailed on the head as far as the definition of toxic masculinity. I think it would be ignorant demise toxic masculinity because it is a thing, there are also toxic and ignorant people. Just an example of Toxic masculinity from my experiences:

I grew up with a very dominant natured dad, he was an All-American (especially baseball, almost ended up on the Atlanta Braves) in sports, he was built and very strong, had a reputation as a guy not to fuck with on the streets. I come around in the world, and my dad is expecting me to be just like him. I'm supposed to play all sports. I hate baseball, I wasn't that much into football (however my mom wouldn't let me either), I loved basketball (was serious until 13, but he didn't care then...), I did run track and was really good (he only came to one track meet, the one I messed up in high school and everything went crashing down), I was doing martial arts (started off with Karate), but it turned out that I don't like violence. I wasn't a confident little boy, in fact I had zero. I didn't think I could do anything, I was sensitive and I cried very easily. Which led to my dad smacking me across the head a lot telling me to "stop crying like a punk." I'd tell him about my low confidence and all he says is "you got my blood son, you'll be Okay." Which basically means, you're going to turn out like me since you have my blood. But, I wasn't him. As a result, I felt inadequate through most of my life. I felt this pressure to be this presence like my dad, but I'm this gentle natured, outgoing boy who just like to see everyone smile. My dad drank a lot so that's when he lash out, just so happens I'm the one he takes everything out on. I didn't know how much me not playing sports like him ate at him until the one day he went into a drunken rage telling me how bad it makes him look when he has to you to the guys and tell them that I'm not playing sports. When I was going to high school, I had a cousin who was a football (plays pro ball over seas in fact) and basketball star, and baseball star and very popular. It was a cousin I was very close with growing up, we were like brothers. It ate at my dad that I wasn't like him and having all this success and attention. He even went as far as telling a friend in front of my face that I was on the varsity football team playing as quarterback, that probably hurt me more than anything. That was when I distanced myself from my cousin (I just told him about this two months ago) and lost even more confidence. My dad felt pressured not only by his own masculinity myth, but other mens as well and he imposed it on me. It devoured me mentally.

I started taking interest in a creative field which I still pursue today which has allowed me to discover myself and be my true self and it feels so damn good. I'm not out here trying to make people happy or proud anymore, I'm making myself proud. That's the only validation I need. I'm not a big guy like my dad, but I am lean and strong (and very athletic), I may not look that intimidating, however I'm probably a little prettier than my dad (lol, just saying). I may not have a reputation of being a tough guy, but I am a guy who draws people for simply the opposite. I've carved my own masculinity, and that masculinity wears crop tops, it wears bright colors, it smiles more than it frowns. I love sports (basketball, football, soccer, MMA, kickboxing, Muay Thai), but I also love the arts (theater, ballet, dance, fashion). I probably love Kobe Bryant and Beyonce equally, and? I might utilize more feminine energy than masculine energy, but it's my masculinity. The New Masculinity.

Sorry for the focused rant, lol (well, it's not really a rant, I'm not angry). I just had a lot of insight on this matter because this is something I've dealt with early in my life. And I can't blame my dad because he didn't have a father in his life, he had no example. But toxic masculinity is very much a real thing.


*sorry if there's any typos, the boy was flowing*
 

dongalong

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@spaj8987 nailed on the head as far as the definition of toxic masculinity. I think it would be ignorant demise toxic masculinity because it is a thing, there are also toxic and ignorant people. Just an example of Toxic masculinity from my experiences:
Sounds like the only real toxicity in your post was alcohol induced, otherwise he sounds like he was trying to be a good role model based on his generation's ideals which may not have been relevant in the environment that you grew up in. It sounds like his influence did encourage you to take responsibilty for your own life choices and live it how you want to live it.
Individuals aren't perfect, we all make mistakes but tarring every man with the same "toxic" brush is just wrong, we don't all conform to the same mold.
 

spaj8987

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@spaj8987 nailed on the head as far as the definition of toxic masculinity. I think it would be ignorant demise toxic masculinity because it is a thing, there are also toxic and ignorant people. Just an example of Toxic masculinity from my experiences:

I grew up with a very dominant natured dad, he was an All-American (especially baseball, almost ended up on the Atlanta Braves) in sports, he was built and very strong, had a reputation as a guy not to fuck with on the streets. I come around in the world, and my dad is expecting me to be just like him. I'm supposed to play all sports. I hate baseball, I wasn't that much into football (however my mom wouldn't let me either), I loved basketball (was serious until 13, but he didn't care then...), I did run track and was really good (he only came to one track meet, the one I messed up in high school and everything went crashing down), I was doing martial arts (started off with Karate), but it turned out that I don't like violence. I wasn't a confident little boy, in fact I had zero. I didn't think I could do anything, I was sensitive and I cried very easily. Which led to my dad smacking me across the head a lot telling me to "stop crying like a punk." I'd tell him about my low confidence and all he says is "you got my blood son, you'll be Okay." Which basically means, you're going to turn out like me since you have my blood. But, I wasn't him. As a result, I felt inadequate through most of my life. I felt this pressure to be this presence like my dad, but I'm this gentle natured, outgoing boy who just like to see everyone smile. My dad drank a lot so that's when he lash out, just so happens I'm the one he takes everything out on. I didn't know how much me not playing sports like him ate at him until the one day he went into a drunken rage telling me how bad it makes him look when he has to you to the guys and tell them that I'm not playing sports. When I was going to high school, I had a cousin who was a football (plays pro ball over seas in fact) and basketball star, and baseball star and very popular. It was a cousin I was very close with growing up, we were like brothers. It ate at my dad that I wasn't like him and having all this success and attention. He even went as far as telling a friend in front of my face that I was on the varsity football team playing as quarterback, that probably hurt me more than anything. That was when I distanced myself from my cousin (I just told him about this two months ago) and lost even more confidence. My dad felt pressured not only by his own masculinity myth, but other mens as well and he imposed it on me. It devoured me mentally.

I started taking interest in a creative field which I still pursue today which has allowed me to discover myself and be my true self and it feels so damn good. I'm not out here trying to make people happy or proud anymore, I'm making myself proud. That's the only validation I need. I'm not a big guy like my dad, but I am lean and strong (and very athletic), I may not look that intimidating, however I'm probably a little prettier than my dad (lol, just saying). I may not have a reputation of being a tough guy, but I am a guy who draws people for simply the opposite. I've carved my own masculinity, and that masculinity wears crop tops, it wears bright colors, it smiles more than it frowns. I love sports (basketball, football, soccer, MMA, kickboxing, Muay Thai), but I also love the arts (theater, ballet, dance, fashion). I probably love Kobe Bryant and Beyonce equally, and? I might utilize more feminine energy than masculine energy, but it's my masculinity. The New Masculinity.

Sorry for the focused rant, lol (well, it's not really a rant, I'm not angry). I just had a lot of insight on this matter because this is something I've dealt with early in my life. And I can't blame my dad because he didn't have a father in his life, he had no example. But toxic masculinity is very much a real thing.


*sorry if there's any typos, the boy was flowing*

Sorry that happened to you but i'm glad you were able to find a much more logical way of living life. Only other thing i'd add is that toxic masculinity is pretty hilarious when you think about it. Most men who believe in it and act on it think it has direct ties in stoicism.

[Stoicism is a school of Hellenistic philosophy which was founded by Zeno of Citium, in Athens, in the early 3rd century BC. Stoicism is a philosophy of personal ethics informed by its system of logic and its views on the natural world. According to its teachings, as social beings, the path to eudaimonia (happiness) for humans is found in accepting the moment as it presents itself, by not allowing oneself to be controlled by the desire for pleasure or fear of pain, by using one's mind to understand the world and to do one's part in nature's plan, and by working together and treating others fairly and justly.]

Which wouldn't be the worst thing if it were. In fact if toxic masculinity and masculinity in general were in fact informed by stoicism then that would be actively be a good thing.

Problem is, it isn't.

There's logic in caring about your appearance. There's logic in being concerned with how you come off to other people. What their opinions are about you. Within certain contexts it's normal. Though caring to the point that you harm not only others but loved ones. Caring to the point where you inevitably harm yourself. Well thats not logical in the least. Not stoic in the least.

Men will very often clown or make fun of women for taking long amounts of time to get ready before they go out somewhere. And one of the biggest complaints i've heard from guys on that topic and the very meat of those so called jokes is that women care what other women think of them.

That that's the inspiration for women taking long amounts of time to get ready. And yet. With both toxic masculinity and to a much lesser extent masculinity. We find men caring what other men think so much and so often that they do and will get physical over it.

Man 1: Why do you walk like that?

Man 2: What like what?

Man1: Like a woman. You walk like a woman.

Man 2: No i don't.

Man 1: Yeah you do you walk swaying your hips.

Man 2: Don't make me kick your ass.

Just the opinion of other men makes other men want to get physical. Physical. I want to get physical. Lets get into physical.

Not because the other man physically harmed them in any way but just because that other man's opinion doesn't match their own. Just because that other man's opinion is more in line with the other man's actions seeming feminine. That's it.

Which makes toxic masculinity and to a much lesser extent masculinity hilariously hypocritical. And as illogical as most men would say women are. Strange isn't it. That the category of people who scream the most about not needing validation. The group of people yelling and taking pride in their ability to be separate from other people's opinions. Are in fact the most fragile, vulnerable, exposed emotionally unstable human beings your ever likely to run into. Or in your case. Be raised by.

Kind of poetic when you think about it.
 
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GoingOnABoeing

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What a bizarre thread this has become. Being assertive and refusing to be a doormat is not toxic masculinity. If people would be honest with themselves and others we would all be better for it.

For example, a few months ago I was called an asshole by a lady (using the term loosely) I went out on a date with. We agreed to meet for a drink. No sooner than she sat down she was telling me about her plans later for that night. She then proceeded to order food along with drinks. I quickly figured out she was just using dates to get free meals and cocktails. She was was pretty shaken when I told the waiter seperate checks. I smiled and told her goodbye and said I hoped she had fun with her other plans that night. I got a nasty message from her the next day. Oh well, there was nothing unfair about what I did.