Toxic Masculinity

[spaj8987]

Boy. Gotta love it when wussies bitch and moan about something they don't and can't understand because their balls have yet to drop. You'd think existing in a space where science could put some hair on their chests would make them real boys.

What Does Psychology Research Have to Say about Toxic Masculinity? — Psychology In Action

[American Psychological Association. (2018). APA guidelines for psychological practice with boys and men.

American Psychological Association. (2007). APA guidelines for psychological practice with girls and women.

American Psychological Association. (2000). APA guidelines for psychological practice with lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals.

American Psychological Association. (2015). APA guidelines for psychological practice with transgender and gender-nonconforming individuals.

Brough, A. R., Wilkie, J. E., Ma, J., Isaac, M. S., & Gal, D. (2016). Is eco-friendly unmanly? The green-feminine stereotype and its effect on sustainable consumption. Journal of Consumer Research, 43(4), 567-582.

Federal Bureau of Investigation (2015). Crime in the United States 2013. Retrieved from CIUS Home

Flood, M. G. (2015). Men and gender equality.

Franklin, K. (2004). Enacting masculinity: Antigay violence and group rape as participatory theater. Sexuality Research & Social Policy, 1(2), 25-40.

Kilmartin, C., & McDermott, R. C. (2015). Men’s violence and masculinities. In Y. J. Wong & S. R. Wester (Eds.), APA handbook of men and masculinities (pp. 615–636). Washington, DC: American Psychological Association. doi:10.1037/14594-028

Longwood, W. Merle; Schipper, William C.; Culbertson, Philip; Kellom, Gar (2012). "American men, religion and spirituality". Forging the Male Spirit: The Spiritual Lives of American College Men. Eugene, Oregon: Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 65–6.

McDermott, R. C., Kilmartin, C., McKelvey, D. K., & Kridel, M. M. (2015). College male sexual assault of women and the psychology of men: Past, present, and future directions for research. Psychology of Men & Masculinity, 16(4), 355.

McDermott, R. C., & Lopez, F. G. (2013). College men's intimate partner violence attitudes: Contributions of adult attachment and gender role stress. Journal of counseling psychology, 60(1), 127.

McDermott, R. C., Schwartz, J. P., & Trevathan-Minnis, M. (2012). Predicting men's anger management: Relationships with gender role journey and entitlement. Psychology of Men & Masculinity, 13(1), 49.

Moore, T. M., & Stuart, G. L. (2005). A Review of the Literature on Masculinity and Partner Violence. Psychology of Men & Masculinity, 6(1), 46.

O’Neil, J. M. (1990). Assessing men’s gender role conflict. In D. Moore, & F. Leafgren (Eds.), Problem solving strategies and interventions for men in conflict (pp. 23–38). Alexandria, VA: American Counseling Association.]

And science bitch slaps the betas yet again.

Social science isn’t science.

[Social science is the branch of science devoted to the study of human societies and the relationships among individuals within those societies. The term was formerly used to refer to the field of sociology, the original "science of society", established in the 19th century. In addition to sociology, it now encompasses a wide array of academic disciplines, including anthropology, archaeology, economics, human geography, linguistics, management science, media studies, musicology, political science, psychology, and social history. (For a more detailed list of sub-disciplines within the social sciences see: Outline of social science.)

Positivist social scientists use methods resembling those of the natural sciences as tools for understanding society, and so define science in its stricter modern sense. Interpretivist social scientists, by contrast, may use social critique or symbolic interpretation rather than constructing empirically falsifiable theories, and thus treat science in its broader sense. In modern academic practice, researchers are often eclectic, using multiple methodologies (for instance, by combining both quantitative and qualitative research). The term "social research" has also acquired a degree of autonomy as practitioners from various disciplines share in its aims and methods.]

How does it feel to get kicked in the nutsack by sigmund freud?

 

[DiomedesXVI]

Social science isn’t science.

I mean it is, it’s just science that needs a whole lot more evidence to find purchase in its theories and expositions.

Sadly, a lot of social sciences just ivory tower themselves away and circle jerk each other’s ideas while avoiding and ignoring scrutiny. With their idea of peer reviewing being that the “scrutinized” material often never leaves the department in which it was formulated/written so that it only gets positively reviewed by like-minded academics who already hold the same or near similar views, i.e. echo chamber-type behaviour.

My field is considered social science to a degree, though it is becoming more and more experiment based which yields hard facts.

 

[spaj8987]

I mean it is, it’s just science that needs a whole lot more evidence to find purchase in its theories and expositions.

Sadly, a lot of social sciences just ivory tower themselves away and circle jerk each other’s ideas while avoiding and ignoring scrutiny. With their idea of peer reviewing being that the “scrutinized” material often never leaves the department in which it was formulated/written so that it only gets positively reviewed by like-minded academics who already hold the same or near similar views, i.e. echo chamber-type behaviour.

My field is considered social science to a degree, though it is becoming more and more experiment based which yields hard facts.

Didn't take you long to throw science under a bus did it. Yeah, facts don't care about your feelings bro. Man up. Take being wrong like a real man.

 

[12cylinder]

Didn't take you long to throw science under a bus did it. Yeah, facts don't care about your feelings bro. Man up. Take being wrong like a real man.

What are you talking about?

 

[DiomedesXVI]

Boy. Gotta love it when wussies bitch and moan about something they don't and can't understand because their balls have yet to drop. You'd think existing in a space where science could put some hair on their chests would make them real boys.

What Does Psychology Research Have to Say about Toxic Masculinity? — Psychology In Action

[American Psychological Association. (2018). APA guidelines for psychological practice with boys and men.

American Psychological Association. (2007). APA guidelines for psychological practice with girls and women.

American Psychological Association. (2000). APA guidelines for psychological practice with lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals.

American Psychological Association. (2015). APA guidelines for psychological practice with transgender and gender-nonconforming individuals.

Brough, A. R., Wilkie, J. E., Ma, J., Isaac, M. S., & Gal, D. (2016). Is eco-friendly unmanly? The green-feminine stereotype and its effect on sustainable consumption. Journal of Consumer Research, 43(4), 567-582.

Federal Bureau of Investigation (2015). Crime in the United States 2013. Retrieved from CIUS Home

Flood, M. G. (2015). Men and gender equality.

Franklin, K. (2004). Enacting masculinity: Antigay violence and group rape as participatory theater. Sexuality Research & Social Policy, 1(2), 25-40.

Kilmartin, C., & McDermott, R. C. (2015). Men’s violence and masculinities. In Y. J. Wong & S. R. Wester (Eds.), APA handbook of men and masculinities (pp. 615–636). Washington, DC: American Psychological Association. doi:10.1037/14594-028

Longwood, W. Merle; Schipper, William C.; Culbertson, Philip; Kellom, Gar (2012). "American men, religion and spirituality". Forging the Male Spirit: The Spiritual Lives of American College Men. Eugene, Oregon: Wipf and Stock Publishers. pp. 65–6.

McDermott, R. C., Kilmartin, C., McKelvey, D. K., & Kridel, M. M. (2015). College male sexual assault of women and the psychology of men: Past, present, and future directions for research. Psychology of Men & Masculinity, 16(4), 355.

McDermott, R. C., & Lopez, F. G. (2013). College men's intimate partner violence attitudes: Contributions of adult attachment and gender role stress. Journal of counseling psychology, 60(1), 127.

McDermott, R. C., Schwartz, J. P., & Trevathan-Minnis, M. (2012). Predicting men's anger management: Relationships with gender role journey and entitlement. Psychology of Men & Masculinity, 13(1), 49.

Moore, T. M., & Stuart, G. L. (2005). A Review of the Literature on Masculinity and Partner Violence. Psychology of Men & Masculinity, 6(1), 46.

O’Neil, J. M. (1990). Assessing men’s gender role conflict. In D. Moore, & F. Leafgren (Eds.), Problem solving strategies and interventions for men in conflict (pp. 23–38). Alexandria, VA: American Counseling Association.]

And science bitch slaps the betas yet again.



[Social science is the branch of science devoted to the study of human societies and the relationships among individuals within those societies. The term was formerly used to refer to the field of sociology, the original "science of society", established in the 19th century. In addition to sociology, it now encompasses a wide array of academic disciplines, including anthropology, archaeology, economics, human geography, linguistics, management science, media studies, musicology, political science, psychology, and social history. (For a more detailed list of sub-disciplines within the social sciences see: Outline of social science.)

Positivist social scientists use methods resembling those of the natural sciences as tools for understanding society, and so define science in its stricter modern sense. Interpretivist social scientists, by contrast, may use social critique or symbolic interpretation rather than constructing empirically falsifiable theories, and thus treat science in its broader sense. In modern academic practice, researchers are often eclectic, using multiple methodologies (for instance, by combining both quantitative and qualitative research). The term "social research" has also acquired a degree of autonomy as practitioners from various disciplines share in its aims and methods.]

How does it feel to get kicked in the nutsack by sigmund freud?

Got one question for you. Did you even read all of these papers? How about just one? If you can’t answer with an unequivocal yes, then why do you expect us to read what even you yourself don’t/won’t?

The old “lemme throw a bunch of citations down” with no actual content is the oldest trick in the book for any lazy or pseudo academic. A post like that is pretty substanceless when truly analyzed for its content.

 

[DiomedesXVI]

Didn't take you long to throw science under a bus did it. Yeah, facts don't care about your feelings bro. Man up. Take being wrong like a real man.

You amuse me, but only in the way that something that is pitiful amuses me. I’m calm as day my friend, you on the other hand are just melting down by jumping at any chance to name call or try and degrade my male identity. You’re pretty sad really.

Also for the record, I didn’t throw anything under the bus. I simply laid bare a legitimate criticism as someone who works closely along many social sciences. If that bothers you, that’s on you and a current issue and failing in the fields of many social sciences, not me.

 

[spaj8987]

Got one question for you. Did you even read all of these papers? How about just one? If you can’t answer with an unequivocal yes, then why do you expect us to read what even you yourself don’t/won’t?

The old “lemme throw a bunch of citations down” with no actual content is the oldest trick in the book for any lazy or pseudo academic. A post like that is pretty substanceless when truly analyzed for its content.

Why do i expect you to read it? Here's a secret. I don't. I expect all of you to keep screaming to the top of your lungs that there's no evidence. And i posted it to show the people you guys may gaslight in the future that no there is in fact evidence.

That's kind of what happens when you take a stance that relies on absolutes. I could have just posted one and it would have proved you wrong. Which is fun because i also got to torture you guys with the very thing you support and defend. Was hella fun too.

Wasn't much you guys could do either. What were you going to do while i was play bullying you? Talk about how men's emotions are important? Say i hurt your feelings? Try to fight back with even more toxic masculinity?

Yeah, you guys put yourselves in a box. Would be hilarious if everyone on the site decided to treat you guys like that. Pretty sure you would just delete your accounts or something.

So yeah. They weren't just citations. You said there was no evidence and i presented said evidence. Doesn't really matter what you do or say from this point on. You guys were wrong. It's not that big a deal unless you make it that big a deal.

Go ahead though. Analyze it. Study it until you're blue in the face. While i haven't of course read them all, you are free to take your chances on being proved wrong yet again. I know a bluff when i see one.

You amuse me, but only in the way that something that is pitiful amuses me. I’m calm as day my friend, you on the other hand are just melting down by jumping at any chance to name call or try and degrade my male identity. You’re pretty sad really.

Also for the record, I didn’t throw anything under the bus. I simply laid bare a legitimate criticism as someone who works closely along many social sciences. If that bothers you, that’s on you and a current issue and failing in the fields of many social sciences, not me.

Says the guy who just got dick slapped by science. lol

 

[DiomedesXVI]

Why do i expect you to read it? Here's a secret. I don't. I expect all of you to keep screaming to the top of your lungs that there's no evidence. And i posted it to show the people you guys may gaslight in the future that no there is in fact evidence.

That's kind of what happens when you take a stance that relies on absolutes. I could have just posted one and it would have proved you wrong. Which is fun because i also got to torture you guys with the very thing you support and defend. Was hella fun too.

Wasn't much you guys could do either. What were you going to do while i was play bullying you? Talk about how men's emotions are important? Say i hurt your feelings? Try to fight back with even more toxic masculinity?

Yeah, you guys put yourselves in a box. Would be hilarious if everyone on the site decided to treat you guys like that. Pretty sure you would just delete your accounts or something.

So yeah. They weren't just citations. You said there was no evidence and i presented said evidence. Doesn't really matter what you do or say from this point on. You guys were wrong. It's not that big a deal unless you make it that big a deal.

Go ahead though. Analyze it. Study it until you're blue in the face. While i haven't of course read them all, you are free to take your chances on being proved wrong yet again. I know a bluff when i see one.



Says the guy who just got dick slapped by science. lol

The only person screaming at the top of their lungs here is you my pal. If I go over and comb this entire thread for your responses compared to everyone else’s, you are legitimately the only person whose posts devolve from having some semblance of discussion into inane and absurd name-calling (e.g. “wussies, bitch”) and disparaging ad hominem remarks. You’re literally the only one here who has done that.

Please see yourself out, since you’re clearly not of sound mind for discussing anything and are seemingly here for nothing more than troll behaviour and attention-seeking. If you continue to do any insulting name-calling or attempts at disparagement, I will report each instance as that is not what this thread is about. Learn to have civil discussion or leave, the choice is yours.

 

[4294991]

@spaj8987, buddy just let it go. They entitled to have whatever viewpoint they want to have. Arguing someone down and forcing your viewpoint upon them just isn't a good look man. This thread is toxic now.

It's always disappointing to see that people don't share your viewpoints. This is a touchy subject for me. I shared something I don't really share with people and it was dismissed. I'm not about to force them into reanalyzing my experience or argue with them. It's their opinion and that's Okay. Like look back at these post from you and them, what's being accomplished in this back and forth?

 

[jtm011]

Yup, this whole thread is the toxic thing now

 

[12cylinder]

Seriously.

Why do i expect you to read it? Here's a secret. I don't. I expect all of you to keep screaming to the top of your lungs that there's no evidence. And i posted it to show the people you guys may gaslight in the future that no there is in fact evidence.

That's kind of what happens when you take a stance that relies on absolutes. I could have just posted one and it would have proved you wrong. Which is fun because i also got to torture you guys with the very thing you support and defend. Was hella fun too.

Wasn't much you guys could do either. What were you going to do while i was play bullying you? Talk about how men's emotions are important? Say i hurt your feelings? Try to fight back with even more toxic masculinity?

Yeah, you guys put yourselves in a box. Would be hilarious if everyone on the site decided to treat you guys like that. Pretty sure you would just delete your accounts or something.

So yeah. They weren't just citations. You said there was no evidence and i presented said evidence. Doesn't really matter what you do or say from this point on. You guys were wrong. It's not that big a deal unless you make it that big a deal.

Go ahead though. Analyze it. Study it until you're blue in the face. While i haven't of course read them all, you are free to take your chances on being proved wrong yet again. I know a bluff when i see one.



Says the guy who just got dick slapped by science. lol

Social sciences are not science. Stop saying that.


No academic institution would argue that they’re the same. A school like Harvard Law would not treat a student of Sociology the same as a student of Economics because one is based on a hard science and the other isn’t. They use the word science in the way that the word theory is used. To help you understand how to implement the ideas. Not to confirm the ideas as being sound.


This is like those people who think that because there is a patent for the corona virus that it’s man made. No you just are wholly ignorant and your casual googling didn’t fix it.

 

[spaj8987]

@spaj8987, buddy just let it go. They entitled to have whatever viewpoint they want to have. Arguing someone down and forcing your viewpoint upon them just isn't a good look man. This thread is toxic now.

It's always disappointing to see that people don't share your viewpoints. This is a touchy subject for me. I shared something I don't really share with people and it was dismissed. I'm not about to force them into reanalyzing my experience or argue with them. It's their opinion and that's Okay. Like look back at these post from you and them, what's being accomplished in this back and forth?

I have let it go. See the time between my last comment and now? I was only doing that to reflect back what toxic masculinity is and make a point about how it traps them into a cycle of massive illogical thinking.

See how after all that cock of the walk acting along with the actual facts of the matter all they have left is bruised egos and screaming that things that do exist don't?

Was just making a point i'll go back to my normal respecting people's opinion self like i always do and maybe help a few along the way.

It's interesting too. People generally react well when you hold a mirror up to them. It's only those who despise themselves who don't.

 

[Johnjingles]

Hmm I read this entire thread, which was very comical, and I still didn’t find an answer to what toxic masculinity is. As someone on the left I really do hate buzzwords cause they are really just weaponized for agendas. When I think about toxic masculinity I thing of the culture that men and boys subscribe to that tells them how a male should act. Men should never play with dolls, men should be smashing lots of pussy, men should not wear their heart of there sleeves etc.There is a standard of behavior for men and women. That in and of itself is not really toxic at all. Just because your parents made you play football and you're the creative type isnt toxic masculinity.

I think the toxicity comes into play when those men base their personalities on traits they think a man should have, as if they read a how to book on how to be a man and they take them to the extreme, the most dangerous is dominance over others, usually women and other men who wouldn’t necessarily be considered “alphas”. This is almost always they traits feminists are referring to. Mainly when on the subjects on rape cultures and assault. Other traits such as being extremely independent and void of emotion are just as important tho and imo in need of the greater attention because of the alarmingly high suicide rates for men.

These male standards become even more toxic when you realize that they are the baseline for homophobia, transphobia, and sexism. What men shouldn't do and mens social position compared to women.

This is my first long post, written on mobile. I hope I could add something to the discussion.

 

[deleted20763331]

Even the phraes "toxic masculanity" is stupid. Dont be a follower and dont fall for every political scheme you see on tv.No, being male and masculine is fine, it is not toxic and should not be called that, to do so is idiocy. people who claim they feel scared from a masculine person are fakes, fake fake fake. they are just trying to live out what they see on tv and portray themselves as victims to get attention or whatever psycho issue drives them in the moment. dont be stupid, pleeze

 

[BigDongPapi]

Can somebody explain what's toxic masculinity and why do people keep talking about it.

View attachment 11341521

You wouldn't get it

 

[michael_3165]

Firstly, what is it? Well, I think that is the problem, nobody seems to be able to define it easily. What makes masculinity toxic? What degree can masculinity not be toxic and when does it tip over into toxic? What makes it toxic masculinity rather than just toxic personality? Is there such thing as toxic femininity? If not, why not?


I’ll start with the wiki definition (yes, not very scholarly!) “aspects of hegemonic masculinity that are socially destructive, such as misogyny, homophobia and violent domination. These traits are considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. Socialisation of boys sometimes also normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" about bullying and aggression.”



No reasonable person would suggest that sexual assault, violence, homophobia, and misogyny are “okay” in society. Your average person will see those things as being socially unacceptable; I do not know anyone that wants a “little bit of violence on the side.” What that description identifies is psychopathy as a problem – which is completely correct. So, have we associated masculinity as psychopathy? That is an extremely dangerous path to take in my view.



It also assumes that misogyny, homophobia, violence, bullying, and aggression are inherently “male”, despite the evidence that females are prone to these in different, maybe less alarming, ways. For example, females can be bitchy, passive aggressive, manipulative of the family courts system and coercively controlling. Is that toxic femininity? No! It is being an asshole, regardless of what sex you are! It is also offensive because if men said women are inherently bitchy, passively aggressive etc and said that this was toxic femininity this would cause outrage – and rightfully so!



From my perspective toxic masculinity is used as a blunt tool to emasculate and make males cow-tow to those who would prefer to see men do less talking and more listening. It fails to acknowledge the evolutionary advantages associated with competitiveness, dominance, healthy aggression (NOT violence) etc. It tries to tame “lad” culture where males bond over “male” things, wanting men to act like and express themselves like women. This is where it fundamentally falls because men do not express themselves in the same way women do.



I have worked with hundreds of young men and they are often terribly demoralised, lacking direction and purpose, have little meaning in their lives and feel like they have been told they are the evil in society that oppresses and subjugates women and minorities. Then society is surprised when these men either 1. lash out at society 2. become passively accepting and shut themselves away (playing computer games and wanking themselves to death).



Men get told that they have all the power and the privilege and after a while they think “fuck it, if you think I am powerful and have everything, I’ll show you!” and they push back, often aggressively. Tell a person how inherently unpleasant they are and that they are the cause of all social ills and they will inevitably bite back. There is, then, an interesting dynamic where manipulation occurs – if they respond loudly they reinforce the narrative that is being levelled against them. It is a vicious cycle.



And here is the kicker. These “toxic” young (and often middle aged) men are desperate for purpose, for kindness, for someone to say “I’ve got you, you can do this!” Millions of men without father figures, all trying to make their ways in the world – a world that punishes them for being masculine and demanding that they conform to the toothless, passive way of managing how they are feeling. Gone are the days when boys would get taught how to behave by older men (often fathers but not exclusively). Why? Because women no longer need men to protect and provide because that has now gone to women. So, women can have a career, children, a social life etc and what have men gotten in return? A loss of purpose and meaning – they no longer feel they are NEEDED – it is what men have historically gained a sense of purpose from. “Toxic” young men kill themselves, alone and in misery. They use drugs/alcohol, get into fights to avoid facing excruciating emotional hell, act with bravado to hide the fact they do not know what to do or where to go. The solution is not making men express themselves like women, it is about allowing them to BE with other men, to learn and explore without changing who they are.



Then what has society got to say to them? “YOU ARE THE PROBLEM”, “It is people like you who have caused all the suffering in society”, and they may as well just submit to the new order or go and kill themselves, alone, in pain and without fuss. Because they are toxic, contagious.



In short, toxic masculinity is, in my view, created by sick societies. We no longer value men, their contributions, and their positive traits. We no longer hold men up as heroes, as inspirational figures, as people who we should all aim to follow. Men are not needed in 2023 – single parent households are normalised, divorce is common, women can do any job a man does and better, men are stupid lumbering oafs that only think with their dicks. And that messaging is what young men get nowadays and it is all, 100% bullshit. We need to enable women to do whatever the hell they want. I love women, I have siblings, a partner, mother, grandparents, best friends… all of them female. I want the best for women AND I want the best for men too. In fact, the best outcome is when both sexes are able to be their true selves and flourish, contribute, take responsibility, get nurturing and a guiding hand when they have no idea where to go. THAT is what I want and it is a terribly sick society when men start acting “toxically” because that is NOT THE PROBLEM, it is a symptom of society going to shit.

Sorry for my rant. I am sure someone will disagree and that is totally okay. I get very passionate about this because I see utter misery and despair every single day and more and more desperate, disillusioned men are dying needlessly at their own hands.

 

[johnweek1]

Toxic masculinity absolutely is a thing. Toxic masculinity is that fear and shame you get as a man crying because your feelings got hurt in front of others, while also accepting this same type of behavior as normal for a woman to feel and express. Toxic masculinity is that fear and shame you may feel if you are not a "normal" straight person, but instead one who prefers to dress and act more effeminately.

Toxic masculinity is the expectation that men must be strong, independent, and that emotions and feelings are weak, and that the more "manly" you are, the more desirable you are to women, and society at large. That said, the term is used way too much, often in accusatory, finger pointing, gestures. The other problem is that pop culture in particular, chooses to shame men about their masculinity and insecurities by spotlighting the worse offenders of this type of toxic masculinity, instead of giving us good role models to emulate like the Doctor from Doctor Who, or Jon Kent from Smallville, for example.

Toxic masculinity is absolutely a society thing, not a man only thing as women often behave and think this way about men as well. Pop culture in particular, Disney, needs to stop shaming the worse of us men, and instead support us and let us know its ok to feel and be ourselves. Pop culture spends more time laughing at our issues instead of embracing them, which again, is a form of toxic masculinity in of itself because it sends the message that men don't need help, as if we should just "man up" and deal with it.