Tragedy in Brazil, or What Happens When...

dong20

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If someone had posted "Let's lynch some niggers" and I had roasted them for that in spite of my NOT BEING BLACK, I doubt you'd be writing the same thing (assuming you're not a racist).

Of course not, but then what you replied to was was a specific reply to a specific point to a specific poster about knowledge of aircraft landing procedures not about the omittance of freinds from the condolence list (or lynchings). It's okay, anyone can make a mistake, even two.

I'm curious though about your overt use of capitalisation - do you think yourself special somehow in thinking such an act would be wrong simply by not being black?....assuming would think it wrong of course. You know what they say about making assumptions of course.

It's the same thing here. I don't think I knew anyone involved in that crash (although I might have, having spent so much time in Rio Grande do Sul), but that doesn't mean I can't comment on what I view as insensitive comments about it. Now, njqt didn't mean it like that and I apologized, so chill out.

Given you evidently were the only poster that took it that way, I suspect any chilling should have been self inflicted, ideally before posting. Nobody said you're not entitled to an opinion, even one so insensitively worded. That doesn't mean it should be left unchallenged.

BTW, I saw your (grudging, qualified) apology after I posted. Better late than never.
 

B_big dirigible

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But maybe that's just my way of thinkin.
That's the problem. You still think your opinion is worthy of note, but have given us no reason to believe that you know the slightest thing about flight training, aircraft construction, airport design, or the Brazilian economy. Your opinion about any topic involving these factors isn't worth the time it takes to read it, is it?
 

SteveHd

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Getting back to the topic, there is a "history" pertaining to the A320 and it's takeoff/landing software. So before we jump to conclusions about the airport mgmt, we need to wait until the data boxes have been analyzed.
 

dong20

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Getting back to the topic, there is a "history" pertaining to the A320 and it's takeoff/landing software. So before we jump to conclusions about the airport mgmt, we need to wait until the data boxes have been analyzed.

This dates back at least as far as an incident in 1993 (Lufthansa) with futher incidents such as the 1994 China Airlines one. Airbus denied it at the time but a further incident in 2001 involving an Iberia A320 forced them to revise the flight control software with regard to gusting wind conditions.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what the FDR results are.
 

wingnut84

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I'm curious though about your overt use of capitalisation - do you think yourself special somehow in thinking such an act would be wrong simply by not being black?....assuming would think it wrong of course. You know what they say about making assumptions of course.


My point was that even though I'm not black I can still speak against racism against black people, just as even though I wasn't personally affected by the crash I can still speak out against any perceived (or in this case, misperceived...) insensitivity about it.
 

earllogjam

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Tragic Story.

What is even more tragic is the finger pointing, cover my ass, no responsibity circus that is playing out. Sound familiar? It's what happens when you get too many stupid incompetent people in your society who won't take any accountablility for their own actions because the system has broken down.


BRAZILIFICATION: The widening gulf between the rich and the poor and the accompanying disappearance of the middle classes
 

wingnut84

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Tragic Story.

What is even more tragic is the finger pointing, cover my ass, no responsibity circus that is playing out. Sound familiar? It's what happens when you get too many stupid incompetent people in your society who won't take any accountablility for their own actions because the system has broken down.


BRAZILIFICATION: The widening gulf between the rich and the poor and the accompanying disappearance of the middle classes

earllogjam FTW.

As much as I love Brasil it really is pretty much hopeless, at least in anything other than the long term. The elite intentionally keep the poor ignorant and uneducated so that they can exploit them to the best of their ability. I mean, that happens here, of course, but down there it's endemic. And let's not even get into deforestation :frown1:
 

b.c.

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That's the problem. You still think your opinion is worthy of note, but have given us no reason to believe that you know the slightest thing about flight training, aircraft construction, airport design, or the Brazilian economy. Your opinion about any topic involving these factors isn't worth the time it takes to read it, is it?

Well as I said, it is merely an opinion, and as such just as valid (I'd think) as yours.

If you'd get your head out of your ass for a second and realize that we (other members) are just as entitled to such (an opinion) as you are, you'd be able to accept them and move on.

But since, as you say, it isn't worth the time it takes to read it, I'd suggest that next time you don't.
 

B_big dirigible

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To BD. True, 'most' people "don't know squat"* about landing aircraft, but many have driven and/or braked hard on a road with standing water, the same basic principle applies.
Of course. So how long should the runway be?

That's surprisingly hard to determine. Pilots tend to use whatever runway is available. I used to fly a small plane into a 1600 foot runway. A sharp pilot can land that particular aircraft in half that distance in normal conditions. A so-so pilot can land in the full runway. But pilots still run out of runway there. They invariably say, after crashing into the fence at the end, "how long is this damn runway, anyway?" The correct length is marked on the FCC maps which they are required to have in the cockpit. In the aviation biz, there is no excuse for ignorance; it causes crashes.

A nearby field has a 4000 foot runway. Sure enough, pilots still manage to run off the end. The point - it doesn't matter if the runway is 1600 or 4000 feet long - the factors which cause pilots to run out of tarmac have nothing to do with the actual length of the runway. There is nothing in everyday experience which would give anyone the "common sense" to realize that. Anyone who knows flip about flying knows it, though.
Landing a aircraft on an ungrooved, runway in a rainstorm demands close attention. Having done so once or twice in a mere four seater I can vouch for that.
All aspects of safe flight demand close attention. That's why your typical Airline Transport Pilot has more on-the-job training than your typical brain surgeon.
The circumstances are unclear but allowing mere financial concerns to permit the landing of a loaded commercial jet on a short, soaked runway (if indeed that is what happened), is negligent and callous, if not outright criminal.
The airline industry is not viable if "mere finanacial concerns" are neglected. If all runways were required to be fifteen miles long, there would be about five airports in the entire world, all of them in places nobody would ever dream of flying to. And I have no doubt that pilots would still manage to run off the ends.

In this case, the runway apparently ends at a bluff overlooking a busy highway, with developed urban areas beyond. Simply "lengthening the runway" doesn't sound so simple. If it really has to be longer, that airport would probably have to be abandoned, or limited to aircraft with shorter landing distances. Both of these things have been done routinely as aircraft become larger. Simply changing the end of a short runway to a "soft" surface is a poor solution. Anything which increases "braking" forces on landing gear also increases bending forces on landing gear, increasing the risk of gear failure. (And please, let's not have some random LPSG member who knows nothing about landing techniques try to lecture me about landing gear.) Landing gear failure means that the moving airframe comes in contact with the ground, and - besides ruining the aircraft - that is likely to rupture a fuel tank, which almost certainly means a fire. Fires on aircraft are hardly conducive to passenger safety. In the Brazilian case, adding a "soft" stretch of runway would necessarily shorten the extent of good runway - not a step in the right direction.

It is the pilot's responsibility to know the capabilities of his aircraft. No exceptions! All aircraft have operator's manuals which give takeoff and landing distances as functions of aircraft weight, airport pressure altitude, and weather conditions. These manuals are supplied by the aircraft manufacturers, and were determined after long and expensive testing programs. If the pilot believes that a runway length is inadequate for the aircraft weight and conditions, it is his responsibility to request that air traffic control send him to another runway or, if necessary, to another airport. So that ATC can send him to another airport, the pilot is required to have a half-hour's flying time of fuel when he reaches his destination airport. (In the US, at least. Not all countries follow US rules, though most do.) ATC is then able to send him to an airport a half-hour away in perfect safety. This is taken seriously in the industry - pilots have been cashiered for having only 28 minutes worth of fuel.

It is just silly to blame politics for what was almost certainly the pilot's error. That has, of course, not yet been determined. The politics of establishing pilot error are another matter altogether, but never conducted in the public domain.
 

B_big dirigible

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Well as I said, it is merely an opinion, and as such just as valid (I'd think) as yours.
You still don't get it. Your opinion, based on rank ignorance, is not as valid as that of somebody who has the slightest inkling of what he's talking about. Yours is just noise.
If you'd get your head out of your ass for a second and realize that we (other members) are just as entitled to such (an opinion) as you are, you'd be able to accept them and move on.
I think even you must realize that I've already revealed the fatuousness of that silly-assed notion.
But since, as you say, it isn't worth the time it takes to read it, I'd suggest that next time you don't.
When I want your suggestions about how I waste my time, I'll ask for them.
 

faceking

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Perhaps someone can summarize what looks to be an argument over schemantics on an argument... underlied by a terrible tragedy (this thread).

Sparked by a real-life tragedy.
 

Big Dreamer

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I don't think that Big Dirg is trying to minimize the loss of human life by pointing out the fact that economy, policy, and professionality play heavy rolls in the safety of a nation's airlines.
 

b.c.

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Perhaps someone can summarize what looks to be an argument over schemantics on an argument... underlied by a terrible tragedy (this thread).

Sparked by a real-life tragedy.

Dude, I was just pointing out what seemed to me an avoidable tragedy (based on the information at hand) and how politics, economics, bureaucracy, and the usual trappings may have contributed to a tragic loss of life. There may be other factors involved (pilot error) but I don't think it will excuse the other contributing factors as well. As I said, just my take on it.

I don't think that or my lack of piloting skills necessarily qualifies me as "ignorant" to use one person's description.

There are certain people here who always seem to miss "the forest" because they stop to examine every "tree". I would think if they had lost a loved one in this tragedy they wouldn't be sitting around talking about the "viability" of airline economics.
 

ManlyBanisters

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No, I'm not some sort of an intellectual snob. This is always just been a huge pet peeve of mine. I think a lot of people sincerely think that families are inherently worth more sympathy than friends, and that bugs the shit out of me. You don't get to choose your family.

MUCH BETTER would have been to say "loved ones," which may or may not include family.

I wasn't talking to you!

Given that comment wasn't written to you, your reply implies one or both of two things:
  1. You're reading impaired
  2. You are an intellectual snob, presumably assuming the 'massive intellect' barb was aimed at you.:rolleyes:

Thanks dong! - that's pretty much what I would have said - had I been here.
 

ManlyBanisters

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Why is everybody all over BD? He frequently knows more about a given topic than 90% of the other posters.

It ain't what he says - it's the way that he says it.

And what he knows and what he is capable of researching and paraphrasing may be two different things. Tho', in fairness I should add that Mr.B (an ex-flyer) was pretty much in agreement with the technicalities of big's post there.