Transexuals and miss universe beauty pageant

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deleted931509

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I used to enjoy a good catalogue back in the early 90s :p
Anyway, I'm lowering the tone of the chat by joking about wanking, and distracting from the original argument. I'll shut up now.
 
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Even back then, the pageants weren’t meant for mastubatory purposes. “Geez, porn isn’t widely available - let’s put pretty girls onstage so dudes can jerk off!” That’s like saying the bra section of the Sears catalogue had a larger selection so men could whack off.

Pageants (can’t believe I’m defending them) were one of the few ways women could earn scholarships and funds. Women in the 50-70s frequently had few options but to trade in on looks. Going to college was often referred to as earning your Mrs degree.

True, why have them now. I don’t know. They continue to offer women the opportunity to earn scholarships and the ability to speak out around the world. Pageants are attempting to de-sexulize the content.

With all that being said, I hate them.

I've been involved in both the Miss America and Miss USA Pageant systems. Even thought I worked full time, I also designed and sewed women's evening wear. I've had several of my creations worn on the Miss America stage and at many local and State pageants. There's a lot of $$$ in these pageant dresses. It was how I supplemented my income.

I've been a judge at local pageants in the Miss America system. The young women who participate are goal oriented and educated. They are NOT usually who we read about in the news. And that's unfortunate because so many of these women are indeed some of the brightest and best this Nation has to offer.

Getting involved was an eye opener. And I quickly discovered that my initial opinion of pageants was flawed. And wrong. While Miss America began as a bathing beauty competition to prolong the tourist season in Atlantic City, New Jersey after the Labor Day weekend, it has morphed over the years into a scholarship/service-based pageant (each contestant has a platform that she promotes). There is a talent category. And yes, some talents are better than others! It's subjective. But, then again, so is beauty.

Miss USA began as a result of a dispute between the Miss America pageant and Catalina Swimsuit, one of their main sponsors at the time. One of the newly-crowned winners in the 1950's refused to pose for pictures in a swimsuit after she won. So, Catalina started the Miss USA pageant; it is more focused on the physicality of the contestants, and last I heard, each contestant pays an entry fee.

Both pageant systems have a rigorous interview process/portion that TV viewers don't see. This is where the contenders are judged on their ability to represent the title. How you speak. Poise. Grace. That intangible "IT" factor, if you will.

The young women who participate, for the most part, are there because of the scholarship money or the potential exposure for modeling, etc. The one constant feedback I've gotten from them was how, win or lose, their involvement helped shape them for their future. Most of the young women I know who participated came out of the experience a better person. More polished. More secure. And ready to face the world, if you will.

That doesn't mean that pageants are perfect. But it is important to remember that a young woman's involvement in them is voluntary. And that they can be quite the springboard for them, whether they win or lose. They learn valuable interview skills and translate to the real world of job hunting.

Pageants IMO are not much different than say figure skating competitions. You are judged subjectively. You could have two different panels of judges and have two different outcomes (winners and runners-up/silver & bronze medalists). I think a lot of the criticism directed at pageants is based on ignorance. Once I got involved, I quickly understood how they can be of value. To many young women. And IMO, that's never a bad thing!
 

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I don't know ONE man who likes watching the Miss Universe beauty pageant. Only women. Some of the most beautiful and hottest "women" I've ever seen have been transvestites and transsexuals.
 

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I've been involved in both the Miss America and Miss USA Pageant systems. Even thought I worked full time, I also designed and sewed women's evening wear. I've had several of my creations worn on the Miss America stage and at many local and State pageants. There's a lot of $$$ in these pageant dresses. It was how I supplemented my income.

I've been a judge at local pageants in the Miss America system. The young women who participate are goal oriented and educated. They are NOT usually who we read about in the news. And that's unfortunate because so many of these women are indeed some of the brightest and best this Nation has to offer.

Getting involved was an eye opener. And I quickly discovered that my initial opinion of pageants was flawed. And wrong. While Miss America began as a bathing beauty competition to prolong the tourist season in Atlantic City, New Jersey after the Labor Day weekend, it has morphed over the years into a scholarship/service-based pageant (each contestant has a platform that she promotes). There is a talent category. And yes, some talents are better than others! It's subjective. But, then again, so is beauty.

Miss USA began as a result of a dispute between the Miss America pageant and Catalina Swimsuit, one of their main sponsors at the time. One of the newly-crowned winners in the 1950's refused to pose for pictures in a swimsuit after she won. So, Catalina started the Miss USA pageant; it is more focused on the physicality of the contestants, and last I heard, each contestant pays an entry fee.

Both pageant systems have a rigorous interview process/portion that TV viewers don't see. This is where the contenders are judged on their ability to represent the title. How you speak. Poise. Grace. That intangible "IT" factor, if you will.

The young women who participate, for the most part, are there because of the scholarship money or the potential exposure for modeling, etc. The one constant feedback I've gotten from them was how, win or lose, their involvement helped shape them for their future. Most of the young women I know who participated came out of the experience a better person. More polished. More secure. And ready to face the world, if you will.

That doesn't mean that pageants are perfect. But it is important to remember that a young woman's involvement in them is voluntary. And that they can be quite the springboard for them, whether they win or lose. They learn valuable interview skills and translate to the real world of job hunting.

Pageants IMO are not much different than say figure skating competitions. You are judged subjectively. You could have two different panels of judges and have two different outcomes (winners and runners-up/silver & bronze medalists). I think a lot of the criticism directed at pageants is based on ignorance. Once I got involved, I quickly understood how they can be of value. To many young women. And IMO, that's never a bad thing!
So it’s not about porn then. ;)
 
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So it’s not about porn then. ;)

Maybe for some of the folks who watch the pageants on TV it is sexual-in-nature. I've seen a few of those type comments from a few guys in this thread. But because I know better, I just chalk up those type of comments to what they are based on--sheer ignorance. That doesn't mean that some pageants, like Miss Universe/Miss USA, don't push the sexualization to the limit...

However, I can tell you that MOST of the guys involved in behind the scenes/putting on the pageant, are GASP, gay. Some who live vicariously through the "girls" they support. Many who truly believe in the goodness of what pageants can offer young women.

Many people have built quite successful businesses from the pageant world. Coaching; interview preparation. Clothing manufacturers. Ever hear of designed Stephen Yearick? Yup, pageants got him in the fashion-world door. Right now, Sherrie Hill, a dress/clothing manufacturer is one of Miss America's biggest sponsors. And guess where a lot of contestants get their pageant wear today? Lost's of $$$ in pageant worlds.

For me, as I said, it was a great vehicle for my side business of dressmaking, design, etc. I also met a lot of great contestants as well as volunteers whose work behind the scenes is so important to putting on a successful pageant. Who truly care about our young women. And want to give them a positive platform. IF pageants are what they want to do...

Now, I realize I didn't address this thread's theme--Transgendered women competing in the Miss Universe pageant. That's because I'm not sure I feel strongly one way or the other. I for one would like to see some good dialog/discussion from both sides of the spectrum of opinion in this thread rather than opinions or musings that spring from sheer ignorance about those people, male or female, who need to transition. That I fully understand.

Cuz today I'm of the mind that eh, who cares who competes? I've been fooled many times myself by a biologically-born male who has transitioned to womanness. And as long as that person is happy, who am I to judge?
 

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Maybe for some of the folks who watch the pageants on TV it is sexual-in-nature. I've seen a few of those type comments from a few guys in this thread. But because I know better, I just chalk up those type of comments to what they are based on--sheer ignorance. That doesn't mean that some pageants, like Miss Universe/Miss USA, don't push the sexualization to the limit...

However, I can tell you that MOST of the guys involved in behind the scenes/putting on the pageant, are GASP, gay. Some who live vicariously through the "girls" they support. Many who truly believe in the goodness of what pageants can offer young women.

Many people have built quite successful businesses from the pageant world. Coaching; interview preparation. Clothing manufacturers. Ever hear of designed Stephen Yearick? Yup, pageants got him in the fashion-world door. Right now, Sherrie Hill, a dress/clothing manufacturer is one of Miss America's biggest sponsors. And guess where a lot of contestants get their pageant wear today? Lost's of $$$ in pageant worlds.

For me, as I said, it was a great vehicle for my side business of dressmaking, design, etc. I also met a lot of great contestants as well as volunteers whose work behind the scenes is so important to putting on a successful pageant. Who truly care about our young women. And want to give them a positive platform. IF pageants are what they want to do...

Now, I realize I didn't address this thread's theme--Transgendered women competing in the Miss Universe pageant. That's because I'm not sure I feel strongly one way or the other. I for one would like to see some good dialog/discussion from both sides of the spectrum of opinion in this thread rather than opinions or musings that spring from sheer ignorance about those people, male or female, who need to transition. That I fully understand.

Cuz today I'm of the mind that eh, who cares who competes? I've been fooled many times myself by a biologically-born male who has transitioned to womanness. And as long as that person is happy, who am I to judge?
I tend to agree on the “who am I to judge” on the competition angle. I may have issues with pageants, but none of it has anything to do with what you’ve mentioned. It’s all about perception. It’s about who can compete. The physically ‘flawed’, meaning women over 200 lbs for example. They can be talented, poised and educated.

But, I have the same issues with magazines, the fashion industry, Hollywood, etc. It’s just non-reflective of reality and does little to raise the overall bar for everyone. And I’m not talking about glorifying ‘fat’, but encouraging diversity for everyone - short, tall, thick, thin, curvy, chinless, old, pale, black, chocolate, born male or female etc. It’s just a thing to me.
 
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I tend to agree on the “who am I to judge” on the competition angle. I may have issues with pageants, but none of it has anything to do with what you’ve mentioned. It’s all about perception. It’s about who can compete. The physically ‘flawed’, meaning women over 200 lbs for example. They can be talented, poised and educated.

But, I have the same issues with magazines, the fashion industry, Hollywood, etc. It’s just non-reflective of reality and does little to raise the overall bar for everyone. And I’m not talking about glorifying ‘fat’, but encouraging diversity for everyone - short, tall, thick, thin, curvy, chinless, old, pale, black, chocolate, born male or female etc. It’s just a thing to me.

I'm with you 100% here. Perception can be brutal. Pageants can/do reinforce certain stereotypes about what feminine beauty is. But I can assure you there is a pageant for just about any one. Miss Wheelchair America. Miss Plus-Size America. There are just too many to recall/mention. Problem is those pageants are never mainstreamed or on National TV. Usually only those with some below-the-surface experience in the pageant world are even aware these other pageants exist.

I bet if you televised some of these nontraditional pageants and people got a chance to see how being different can be/is celebrated, IMO, it could go a long way to help change some perceptions. But then again, I can often be like Pollyanna...

There are several pageant-themed magazines out there. Pageant World is one of the biggest. It covers all the mainstream Miss pageants. But not the others. It's sad. Cuz they could expand their circulation considerably just by expanding coverage to the "nontraditional" pageants in addition to those we are so used to seeing.

And your point about magazines in general is spot on. When famous, already really thin female models/celebrities pictures are photoshopped to thin them even further on the magazine covers, my reaction is always--WTF. Why? Cuz in the real world more women than not are larger than a Size 10/12. And, IMO, whoever invented Size 0 and Size 00 needs to be vaporized. Right now. How many young women are bombarded regularly with that subliminal visual that thinner is better. Is sexier. Is whatever. IMO, that's why so many young girls have eating disorders.

And isn't it funny that every few years a new "plus-size" model hits the runway. Remember Emme? Lately I've been hearing/seeing Ashley Graham. Since when is a Size 14/16 plus-size? Not to me. These are two curvy, voluptuous women who strike me as quite happy in their bodies. Drop dead gorgeous in my book!

Here's a questions that I've often pondered--Do most straight men really find these stick-thin, often-times breast- and/or butt-implanted women more attractive than a normal woman with real curves, like most women are?

One more thing--Why in the hell do we raise our children to be individuals? To be you. Be yourself we tell them. Don't follow. Lead. And then, while so impressionable, they are bombarded with the "thinner is better" message in all types of media? That confuses the fuck out of me.
 
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i've never understood pageants and don't pretend to be any expert for it. i've always viewed it as a bunch of pretty women competing for who is the "best". no disrespect to what pageants truly stand for, just doesn't mean much to me. different strokes for different folks.

now i will say that i will glady watch a victoria secrets show over a pageant any day. just my personal preference.

and to answer the OP; i'm totally cool with a non-biological woman competing. times are changing and change is good.
 

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This is a really interesting question. I think that with something like athletics things are judged in an objective way that can't be influenced by opinion (usually). It's not the judges opinion that person X ran faster than person Y, person X just ran faster.

Judging something like beauty is far more subjective, there is no definitive beauty. I think that if you held a beauty pageant and had two separate groups of judges choose a winner they would very likely choose a different winner. Similarly, someone might tell me that person X is unattractive, but if I find person X attractive then their judgement really doesn't matter to me. Because of this I can't really say that a trans person would have a leg up or the opposite in that kind of competition, it's more dependent on the judges opinion which varies with judges.

I guess I don't have much of an opinion, but I find the question very interesting. At some level, I wonder why beauty pageants are restricted by gender at all. Also, I understand that beauty pageants aren't really judging solely on appearance, but I find the question more interesting if we assume that they are.

I try not to comment in this section of the forum just because I feel like its not really my place to comment, so I hope I didn't step over any boundaries. Also, I recognize that I probably don't use the correct terminology when referring to people in the trans community. I don't mean to offend and hope that I don't, I'm just not sure exactly what is or is not okay to say.
 

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Everything isn't the same as everything else. I might enjoy a good steak and a vegan would abhor it. Does that mean I should force my steak on a vegan in the interests of equality?

Each gender should have its own beauty pageants - if pageants are wanted/needed. I don't see how those who defend multiple genders defend their right to gate-crash other genders' activities.
 

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I don't see how those who defend multiple genders defend their right to gate-crash other genders' activities.

A gate has to be closed in order to crash through it. Miss America pageant opened its doors to transgender contestants six years ago and was not forced to do so.

If you have some concerns, you could write the people who run the organization rather than complaining to us about it: Miss America 2.0
 

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I guess I don't have much of an opinion, but I find the question very interesting. At some level, I wonder why beauty pageants are restricted by gender at all.

Historically speaking, male beauty pageants existed and just looked different :p

800px-Arnold_Schwarzenegger_1974.jpg
 

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A gate has to be closed in order to crash through it. Miss America pageant opened its doors to transgender contestants six years ago and was not forced to do so.

If you have some concerns, you could write the people who run the organization rather than complaining to us about it: Miss America 2.0

Transgendered women are NOT currently allowed to compete in Miss America. Here is an interview with the recently crowned Miss America, Nia Franklin, speaking to just that subject:

Miss America Says Transgender Women Should Be Allowed To Compete

However, Miss Universe this year will have its first transgendered competitor--Miss Spain. Here is an article about just that:

Miss Universe's first transgender contestant aims to be a role model for trans kids

And this is why Miss Spain will be competing at Miss Universe this year:

Transgender Miss Universe Canada contestant falls short of title - CNN
 

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Transgendered women are NOT currently allowed to compete in Miss America. Here is an interview with the recently crowned Miss America, Nia Franklin, speaking to just that subject:

Miss America Says Transgender Women Should Be Allowed To Compete

However, Miss Universe this year will have its first transgendered competitor--Miss Spain. Here is an article about just that:

Miss Universe's first transgender contestant aims to be a role model for trans kids

And this is why Miss Spain will be competing at Miss Universe this year:

Transgender Miss Universe Canada contestant falls short of title - CNN

Yeah, sorry, it was Miss Universe that started allowing transgender contestants in 2012. I don't follow pageantry enough to keep them straight :p
 

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I still don't understand why we have these contests at all anymore. We don't need to rate women on looks in order to decide which ones are worthy of a scholarship anymore.

I just can't see why they exist at all anymore. I've racked my brain on it reading this thread over the days since it was posted. I can't come up with any reason to keep having them.

For men or women .. I can't see why we do this other than the fact that we haven't evolved out of it yet.
 
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I still don't understand why we have these contests at all anymore. We don't need to rate women on looks in order to decide which ones are worthy of a scholarship anymore.

I just can't see why they exist at all anymore. I've racked my brain on it reading this thread over the days since it was posted. I can't come up with any reason to keep having them.

For men or women .. I can't see why we do this other than the fact that we haven't evolved out of it yet.

Right now the Miss America pageant is in flux. New leadership. Gretchen Carlson is now in charge. She tried this year to revamp the National competition. Dropped the swimsuit category. More focus on the interview aspect. This was the first year to have on-stage rapid-fire interview category. More focus on talent category. The new leadership is trying to shift the focus from the physicality to more toward education and scholarship and service.

Problem they are having is that this was done primarily in a vacuum without involving the State pageants who feed the contestants to the National pageant; these folks are not happy with the changes. They want the swimsuit competition restored. Funny that a lot of the young women who participate also want swimsuit restored.

The type of changes envisoned at the National level is not currently shared by most of the State pageant folks. This is why the National pageant has stripped at least four state pageant officials from their franchise involvement. It's not been pretty (pun intended!)

There is currently a GoFundMe initiative to take the State fight into court against the National Pageant. Yes, it really is that big of a deal to a lot of folks who are so invested in their respective State pageants. While it may not matter to you or me, it does matter, ALOT, to many of these folks. Pageant drama, if you will...

While there are a lot of folks who don't get the whole "beauty pageant" concept, it is a huge business. Lots and lots of $$$ is involved. Being Miss Whateverstate is/can be a huge deal, especially in those states where being Miss Whateverstate is just a huge deal. For example, a Miss Whateverstate can earn close to six figures during her year, win or lose in Atlantic City. And Miss Americas routinely earn a 6 figure salary during their year of service. It's just a huge fucking deal to a lot of people.

Depending upon the state you compete in, some young women can win several thousands of $$$ in scholarships. Even if you don't ever win the state title. I personally know a few young women who were able to pay for their college education through pageantry. And, for some, the scholarships they get goes a long way for many of them to help get to college, stay in college or pay student loans.

Are pageants perfect? NOPE. But then again, what is? It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out in the near future. Regardless of what happens, I don't see the Miss America or Miss USA or Miss Universe pageants going anywhere anytime soon. Like I said above, lots of $$$ in pageantry. On so many levels...
 

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Yeah, sorry, it was Miss Universe that started allowing transgender contestants in 2012. I don't follow pageantry enough to keep them straight :p

Good one! Not enough hours in the day to keep anything straight for me! :p
 
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