Transgenders in the military debate

Fred90

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Here is an argument in support of banning transgenders from the military.

Trump's military transgender ban is more reasonable than you think

I generally support Trump, but not necessarily on this one. I'm willing to be persuaded, but I'm not convinced that transgenders serving in the military poses a threat. I'm not aware of transgenders being the cause of any great transgressions. While some might point to Bradley Manning, I would respond that plenty of heterosexual folks have intentionally disseminated classified materials and most of them did it for money, not personal convictions.

P.S. Sorry if there is already a thread on this topic. I did a cursory search and didn't find one.
 

windibundu

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Article says gender dysphoria is a serious mental illness that places armed forces at risk, but ask any informed psychiatrist or psychologist and they will tell you this is patent bullshit. Gender dysphoria is nothing but a name given to the distress caused by the mismatch between ones internal expressed gender and external physical phenotype. and what is the cure? to allow people to express their internal gender chatacteristics on the outside. also, doctors HAVE to code a diagnosis before insurance companies will pay for treatment, even if people arent really THAT ill. in the case of transgender people, 'gender dysphoria' HAS to be coded if they want surgery, etc. As a shrink it pains me greatly when I see mental diagnosis weaponized against the patients.
 

Fred90

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Article says gender dysphoria is a serious mental illness that places armed forces at risk, but ask any informed psychiatrist or psychologist and they will tell you this is patent bullshit. Gender dysphoria is nothing but a name given to the distress caused by the mismatch between ones internal expressed gender and external physical phenotype. and what is the cure? to allow people to express their internal gender chatacteristics on the outside. also, doctors HAVE to code a diagnosis before insurance companies will pay for treatment, even if people arent really THAT ill. in the case of transgender people, 'gender dysphoria' HAS to be coded if they want surgery, etc. As a shrink it pains me greatly when I see mental diagnosis weaponized against the patients.

I appreciate your professional response.

Some (but not all) of my conservative friends have the mindset that transgenders are bad for the military. I've never served so I can't say, at least not based on personal experience. But, I haven't heard a good argument as to why transgenders are bad for the military.
 

eastneuk

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just gonna leave you with your tag-line:
Liberals don't have a problem with hate and intolerance; liberals have a problem with your hate and intolerance.
Anyone who identifies as their born sex, another sex or non-binary and is willing to serve in the military and put themselves in danger for their country ought to be applauded.
- or have their head read imo.. war is completely unnecessary
 

BIGBULL29

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Donald Trump wants to rule the USA like Putin runs Russia. Putin's goal in having Trump elected was to create chaos in America so much so that no one knows what the truth is. This has been in the Russian playbook for decades. The Russian leader dreams for a civil war to break out in the US.

Mikey Pence, a prominent Evangelical nut, is somewhat behind this transgender ban, too, if you want to know it all.

America better wake up!
 

Fred90

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just gonna leave you with your tag-line:
Liberals don't have a problem with hate and intolerance; liberals have a problem with your hate and intolerance.
Anyone who identifies as their born sex, another sex or non-binary and is willing to serve in the military and put themselves in danger for their country ought to be applauded.
- or have their head read imo.. war is completely unnecessary

How is my supporting of transgenders serving in the military hateful and intolerant?
 

keenobserver

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Like you, Fred I have never served. The only quasi-legit issue I have heard raised is maintain the drug supply to trans soldiers when deployed. I have no knowledge of how critical the hormone controlling drugs are to daily function and what happens when they are not available. This was conveyed to me by a couple of friends who were lifers of some rank in the Army and Air Force. The issue they cited was "ready to deploy." Many in the military are discharged over chronic conditions that require a steady stream of drugs to control - even though these drugs are readily available often at a reasonable cost. Another friend, also an air force lifer was discharged because he had a blood clotting issue and according to the military doctors it was theoretically life threatening on a deployment. Based on where he was in his career he was not ever going to deploy again but that did not matter - bang - zoom - he was out.

Still a number of trans soldiers, post surgical have deployed and served more than one tour in combat. I have no idea how that has worked in reality - there just has not been much news on it. I assume it generally worked okay because I am sure if it was generating problems the opposition to the service of trans soldiers would be getting the word out. I wonder how much of this issue is designed to appeal to the homophobic base, which Trump plays to regularly and how much is merely old school military bias against change - like the myth that black Americans could not integrate with whites because they would not fight for another race. Ditto the same issue with garden variety homosexuals - who were considered a threat to morale and moral order.

The court usually backs the president on military issues even when he has his head in his ass, so this will be tricky to sort out and likely stand until we remove Trump one way or another and take back the WH.

I simply find it amazing that we find ways to discourage and frustrate people who merely wish to serve their country.
 

eastneuk

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Donald Trump wants to rule the USA like Putin runs Russian.

Mikey Pence, a prominent Evangelical nut, is somewhat behind this transgender ban, too, if you want to know it all.

America better wake up!

Terrifying.. he's using every single fascist mode of operation.. it's all gonna crumble around them soon, coz lying thieving thug crooks NEVER win. Lock em all up.. halfway there already
 

Fred90

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Like you, Fred I have never served. The only quasi-legit issue I have heard raised is maintain the drug supply to trans soldiers when deployed. I have no knowledge of how critical the hormone controlling drugs are to daily function and what happens when they are not available. This was conveyed to me by a couple of friends who were lifers of some rank in the Army and Air Force. The issue they cited was "ready to deploy." Many in the military are discharged over chronic conditions that require a steady stream of drugs to control - even though these drugs are readily available often at a reasonable cost. Another friend, also an air force lifer was discharged because he had a blood clotting issue and according to the military doctors it was theoretically life threatening on a deployment. Based on where he was in his career he was not ever going to deploy again but that did not matter - bang - zoom - he was out.

Still a number of trans soldiers, post surgical have deployed and served more than one tour in combat. I have no idea how that has worked in reality - there just has not been much news on it. I assume it generally worked okay because I am sure if it was generating problems the opposition to the service of trans soldiers would be getting the word out. I wonder how much of this issue is designed to appeal to the homophobic base, which Trump plays to regularly and how much is merely old school military bias against change - like the myth that black Americans could not integrate with whites because they would not fight for another race. Ditto the same issue with garden variety homosexuals - who were considered a threat to morale and moral order.

The court usually backs the president on military issues even when he has his head in his ass, so this will be tricky to sort out and likely stand until we remove Trump one way or another and take back the WH.

I simply find it amazing that we find ways to discourage and frustrate people who merely wish to serve their country.

Nice post.

If the JCOS says there is no issue, that's certainly good enough for little old me.
 

BIGBULL29

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Terrifying.. he's using every single fascist mode of operation.. it's all gonna crumble around them soon, coz lying thieving thug crooks NEVER win. Lock em all up.. halfway there already

You better believe what he is doing is downright dangerous. It puts chills down my spine. He attacks every group but white Evangelicals and the KKK (fine people).

Trump and his clan are treasonists who should never see the light of day again.

Trump supporters whined nonstop for months about black NFL players not standing up for the American flag at games all while Trump and his cronies were sleeping with the enemy. Now that's what you call respect for the American flag, Trump. What irony!
 

eastneuk

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You better believe what he is doing is downright dangerous. It puts chills down my spine. He attacks every group but white Evangelicals and the KKK (fine people).

They are treasonists who should never see the light of day again.

Trump supporters whined nonstop for months about black NFL players not standing up for the American flag at games all while Trump and his cronies were sleeping with the enemy. Now that's what you call respect for the American flag, Trump. What irony!

and yet see's no harm in shutting the gov't down and withholding paychecks from close to a million people who work for the flag. disgusting
 

phonehome

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For all the people in the "it's bad for the military" types

That was the argument made in support maintaining "the status quo" for all of the following

Blacks serving in anything but segregated units (pre Truman)

Women serving in anything but clerical/admin IE "a secretary" type roles and only in the most rear of rear areas.

Gays serving at all

In both cases it was, oh the dread of the "open bay barracks" or tents and the ultra dreaded "communal showers"

In every case it was always "they" as in the people supposedly so against the change "would all get out" rather than serve alongside/with ---------- but in every case other than few bigots which in the big picture the military was better of to be rid of "they" did not "just get out"

In every "new case" "they" would always claim that the "that" in the past was all different for reasons X,Y&Z

The "problem" I have ever really had is with regard to the "women in combat" issue is the extreme double standard and you could call it hypocrisy that woman seem to want where a male can just get assigned to what ever regardless of if he wants it or not but for a female she gets to choose to "choose to volunteer" at every step.

She can choose to volunteer for nothing and be just an admin/clerical type and go on about her merry way going from one to another what we called "shore duty job" in the Navy and do 20 plus years just fine, if she "volunteered" to be on ship well that was like "bonus points" come advancement time but a guy in the same "job" he got sent to one if he wanted to or not and if he managed to somehow someway avoid it well that got viewed as huge negative.

Now the Army and Marine Corp which I know something about for my JCS staff days, it was for years and years, she could go to all those "oh rah schools" Airborne, Air assault, pathfinder you name it and then go back to sitting behind a desk at a rear echelon HQ or MAJCOM and never use/employ those skills or even be assigned to a unit where that was possible more recently it's now Ranger school and have an office wall full of diplomas and a uniform full of badges for that real "war hero look" and enjoy what ever pluses going to all those schools may bring come promotion time but when the Military, the Army in this example comes calling and says they want to have them actually put those "skills" she learned at all those schools which was supposedly at least in theory why the Army sent her to those schools in the first place she can just say "no I choose not to "volunteer" " and go along about her merry way and suffer few if any real ill effects but a male he is just going to go, if he does not have all or any of the "required schools" why no problem he will get sent to those along the way, don't pass either "on purpose" or seemingly just because good luck with that not being viewed and applied as a negative.