Trayvon Martin and the Disconnect Between the Right & Left

blazblue

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Where did I say I was there? Where did I say I knew what happened? I thought I made it clear that, with the exception of Zimmerman, nobody knows what happened with the exception of a witness who stated that he saw Martin on top of a screaming Zimmerman.

So then why are some of you against Zimmerman being arrested and letting the courts do their jobs? If Zimmerman was innocent, which I don't think is the case, he should at least be in police custody, especially when the police told him not to pursue.
 
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Panda2007

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Well, there's the funeral director in Miami who worked on Martin's body:


The complete videotaped interview is here.

As to "what we want", it's simple: due process. No one is suggesting a "lynching". Frankly I find that verbiage hysterical (and not in the funny sense).

I'm all with you on due process and I do agree that the funeral director's potential testimony could be damaging to Zimmerman. What is interesting is that we haven't heard a peep from the EMT's that came to and worked on Zimmerman. I'd really like to hear what they have to say!
 

Panda2007

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I wish I can say the same for the kid who lost his :/. If demanding a murderer be arrested for killing a child makes me pathetic then so be it.

I'm with you that murderers need to be brought to justice. But for it to be "just" we have to be able to come up with a charge(s) and present evidence. It seems evidence is lacking. Maybe more will come out.

Let me ask another question.

Is it reasonably possible that Zimmerman simply asked Martin "Do you live here" and that Martin attacked Zimmerman? Or do you believe that is out of the realm of a "reasonable" possibility?
 

blazblue

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I'm with you that murderers need to be brought to justice. But for it to be "just" we have to be able to come up with a charge(s) and present evidence. It seems evidence is lacking. Maybe more will come out.

Let me ask another question.

Is it reasonably possible that Zimmerman simply asked Martin "Do you live here" and that Martin attacked Zimmerman? Or do you believe that is out of the realm of a "reasonable" possibility?

No. First of all it doesn't make any sense. Why the hell would anyone attack someone else just because he/she asked "Do you live here?". Second no one with half brain would attack someone barehanded who's 110lbs. heavier than they are.

Now let me ask you something: Why was a self appointed neighborhood watch captain with a loaded weapon, doing in an area where he didn't live in, watching a minor?
 
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Panda2007

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No. First of all it doesn't make any sense. Why the hell would anyone attack someone else just because he/she asked "Do you live here?". Second no one with half brain would attack someone barehanded who's 110lbs. heavier than they are.

Now let me ask you something: Why was a self appointed neighborhood watch captain with a loaded weapon, doing in an area where he didn't live in, watching a minor?

Well, if you want a successful prosecution of Zimmerman a judge or jury is going to have to be convinced that Zimmerman assaulted Martin and then resorted to shooting him when Martin got the better of him. At least that's the way I see it. But how do you KNOW the Zimmerman initiated the violence that preceded the shooting? How do you KNOW that? And, even if you know it, how do you convey that knowledge to a judge/jury? I don't think you can. I think it will be very difficult to get a judge or 12 jury members to ASSUME that Zimmerman initiated the violence and then convict him of murder, which could even result in Zimmerman's execution. Would you be comfortable being the one to execute Zimmerman or, even, putting him in prision and "throwing away the key" (so to speak) with Zimmerman pleading to you that Martin really was the one who attacked Zimmerman?

You see, that's really the problem isn't it? We weren't there and we DO NOT KNOW what transpired. Believing what transpired is NOT The same as KNOWING what transpired.
 

blazblue

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Well, if you want a successful prosecution of Zimmerman a judge or jury is going to have to be convinced that Zimmerman assaulted Martin and then resorted to shooting him when Martin got the better of him. At least that's the way I see it. But how do you KNOW the Zimmerman initiated the violence that preceded the shooting? How do you KNOW that? And, even if you know it, how do you convey that knowledge to a judge/jury? I don't think you can. I think it will be very difficult to get a judge or 12 jury members to ASSUME that Zimmerman initiated the violence and then convict him of murder, which could even result in Zimmerman's execution. Would you be comfortable being the one to execute Zimmerman or, even, putting him in prision and "throwing away the key" (so to speak) with Zimmerman pleading to you that Martin really was the one who attacked Zimmerman?

You see, that's really the problem isn't it? We weren't there and we DO NOT KNOW what transpired. Believing what transpired is NOT The same as KNOWING what transpired.

Again which is why Zimmerman should at least be in custody until we can figure out what happened and why it happened. There may not be enough evidence to say he's guilty, but there also isn't enough evidence to say he's innocent either.
 
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Good lord, it's amazing how hard people are working to justify their defense of Zimmerman. When a person shoots an unarmed person at point blank range, the shooter is very often arrested and charged with a crime, based on the police/magistrate/district attorney/grand jury determination that there exists probable cause to believe a crime has been committed. At some point, if the defendant pleads not guilty, there will be a trial. THEN is the time when all the evidence is presented and a judge or jury decides whether the defendant is guilty.

The outrage in this situation is there is plenty to indicate there's probable cause to believe Zimmerman committed a crime. Thus, he should be arrested and charged. If a bond is set, he can post it and be released from custody pending the resolution of the case. That's the normal procedure. That it hasn't obtained here begs the question. And all the defending of Zimmerman just reeks of partisan politics and demonization of the other.

THIS...as they say.
 

redneckgymrat

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Again which is why Zimmerman should at least be in custody until we can figure out what happened and why it happened. There may not be enough evidence to say he's guilty, but there also isn't enough evidence to say he's innocent either.

You can not just arrest someone because you feel like it, and hold them indefinitely until you come up with a charge that might fit. We have laws about that sort of thing.

Having said that, though, the fact that Zimmerman was not even detained for 24 hours, during the preliminary investigation, is troublesome. I freely admit that. He admitted to shooting Trayvon, and claims that it was done in self defense, which is at least plausible. That's where the investigation should come in.

And, about the terms being used in this thread. We need to be careful, so let me be very exact. The fact that Trayvon was killed is extremely sad. And unfortunate. There's no denying that. But, his killing can NOT be automatically assumed to be a murder. Murder has very specific definitions. That is one of the points that needs to be hashed out, with witnesses, in a court of law.

There is a saying amongst those who carry a gun. Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6. Zimmerman had the right to carry his gun. He had the right to use his gun in self defense. And, now, the next step will be holding him responsible for those actions...guilty or not guilty.
 
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blazblue

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You can not just arrest someone because you feel like it, and hold them indefinitely until you come up with a charge that might fit. We have laws about that sort of thing.

Having said that, though, the fact that Zimmerman was not even detained for 24 hours, during the preliminary investigation, is troublesome. I freely admit that. He admitted to shooting Trayvon, and claims that it was done in self defense, which is at least plausible. That's where the investigation should come in.

And, about the terms being used in this thread. We need to be careful, so let me be very exact. The fact that Trayvon was killed is extremely sad. And unfortunate. There's no denying that. But, his killing can NOT be automatically assumed to be a murder. Murder has very specific definitions. That is one of the points that needs to be hashed out, with witnesses, in a court of law.

There is a saying amongst those who carry a gun. Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6. Zimmerman had the right to carry his gun. He had the right to use his gun in self defense. And, now, the next step will be holding him responsible for those actions...guilty or not guilty.

Fine. Whatever. If Zimmerman is never arrested, I hope that the he feels the full wrath of the bitch goddess karma 100 fold and that he enjoys the rest of his life in isolation. We'll have to agree to disagree once again.
 

travis1985

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There may not be enough evidence to say he's guilty, but there also isn't enough evidence to say he's innocent either.
I know not everyone works in the law by trade, but surely "innocent until proven guilty" is common knowledge. There doesn't have to be ANY evidence in support of innocence.
 

blazblue

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You can not just arrest someone because you feel like it, and hold them indefinitely until you come up with a charge that might fit. We have laws about that sort of thing.

Having said that, though, the fact that Zimmerman was not even detained for 24 hours, during the preliminary investigation, is troublesome. I freely admit that. He admitted to shooting Trayvon, and claims that it was done in self defense, which is at least plausible. That's where the investigation should come in.

And, about the terms being used in this thread. We need to be careful, so let me be very exact. The fact that Trayvon was killed is extremely sad. And unfortunate. There's no denying that. But, his killing can NOT be automatically assumed to be a murder. Murder has very specific definitions. That is one of the points that needs to be hashed out, with witnesses, in a court of law.

And what about all of those people that called 911 hearing Trayvon scream and then hearing gunshots. Aren't they considered witnesses?


There is a saying amongst those who carry a gun. Better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6. Zimmerman had the right to carry his gun. He had the right to use his gun in self defense. And, now, the next step will be holding him responsible for those actions...guilty or not guilty.

Except there's no proof he used it in self defense either.
 

blazblue

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I know not everyone works in the law by trade, but surely "innocent until proven guilty" is common knowledge. There doesn't have to be ANY evidence in support of innocence.

Trayvon's innocent until proven guilty too but that's not stopping some of you from thinking that he is guilty either.
 
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travis1985

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And what about all of those people that called 911 hearing Trayvon scream and then hearing gunshots. Aren't they considered witnesses?

Except there's no proof he used it in self defense either.
The contribution the witnesses are able to offer only supports what we know to be a fact: that Martin was shot. No one disputes that. If there were an eyewitness who saw Zimmerman walk up to him and shoot him out of nowhere, it would be a different story. For all we know, that well may be what happened. But we don't have that witness. All we have is a lack of evidence one way or the other, and while people may interpret it to indicate one possibility, it isn't legally damning.

Trayvon's innocent until proven guilty too but that's not stopping some of you from thinking that he is guilty either.
I can't speak for everyone, but I don't know one way or the other if Martin is guilty or not. I'm speaking in terms of the law. Like everyone else except for Zimmerman and Martin, all I can hazard is a personal guess about what exactly happened, and that guess doesn't mean much in court.
 
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blazblue

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The contribution the witnesses are able to offer only supports what we know to be a fact: that Martin was shot. No one disputes that. If there were an eyewitness who saw Zimmerman walk up to him and shoot him out of nowhere, it would be a different story. For all we know, that well may be what happened. But we don't have that witness. All we have is a lack of evidence one way or the other, and while people may interpret it to indicate one possibility, it isn't legally damning.

So we're at a stalemate then. And as long as it's the case, this will never be resolved. The only thing left to do is that there's "more" evidence revealed so Zimmerman can be put behind bars where he belongs.
 
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Hoss

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Let's see....the people screamed that George wasn't even brought in, yet, there we see him in handcuffs being led into the station.

The people claim he had no injuries yet there's audio from EMS confirming a second injury, non-gun shot.

The EMS people cleaned him up, one report states a close up of the video on the back of his head shows an injury.



the funeral director Richard Kurtz. He should have his credentials revoked. It's not proper to give out information of this nature especially in an ongoing case, it may not even be legal and it may not even be true. What does he plan to do if the autopsy results and photos do show scrapes on Mr.Martins hands? I find it hard to believe that a 17 year old had absolutely no cuts or bruises anywhere on him, that almost defies being a 17 year old, not to mention that as he fell after being shot, there'd be cuts sustained as he connected with the cement. His skin tissue and blood had not fully stopped living.

Spike Lee should jailed for what he did. Even if he had tweeted the correct address, all he was doing was creating a further crisis and possible death. Killing George would not be the answer, if someone really believes that it is the answer then they have a major problem. Spike Lee is an adult and knows better. His behavior is disgraceful and a tweeted apology is not sufficient. I hope that elderly couple sues his pants off.

All the students who were in the Trayvon Martin protest who decided to ransack a store, they should be arrested. (google search for "students in protest ransack store"...images of possible under 18 people so I won't provide the link). A protest is fine, destroying property is not. All these students should face a judge and be given some sort of community service as a part of punishment.

What happens next? Lets say George is arrested and tried and he is judged not guilty. I can see a repeat of the Rodney King verdict and result which ended up with a truck driver named Reginald Denny being dragged out of his truck at an intersection and being beaten senseless.

Through all of this people are forgetting the real injustice and the life of Trayvon Martin, it's easier apparently to cast stones, place death threats.....as have been made towards George Zimmerman, and vandalize property.
 

blazblue

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Let's see....the people screamed that George wasn't even brought in, yet, there we see him in handcuffs being led into the station.

The people claim he had no injuries yet there's audio from EMS confirming a second injury, non-gun shot.

The EMS people cleaned him up, one report states a close up of the video on the back of his head shows an injury.



the funeral director Richard Kurtz. He should have his credentials revoked. It's not proper to give out information of this nature especially in an ongoing case, it may not even be legal and it may not even be true. What does he plan to do if the autopsy results and photos do show scrapes on Mr.Martins hands? I find it hard to believe that a 17 year old had absolutely no cuts or bruises anywhere on him, that almost defies being a 17 year old, not to mention that as he fell after being shot, there'd be cuts sustained as he connected with the cement. His skin tissue and blood had not fully stopped living.

Spike Lee should jailed for what he did. Even if he had tweeted the correct address, all he was doing was creating a further crisis and possible death. Killing George would not be the answer, if someone really believes that it is the answer then they have a major problem. Spike Lee is an adult and knows better. His behavior is disgraceful and a tweeted apology is not sufficient. I hope that elderly couple sues his pants off.

All the students who were in the Trayvon Martin protest who decided to ransack a store, they should be arrested. (google search for "students in protest ransack store"...images of possible under 18 people so I won't provide the link). A protest is fine, destroying property is not. All these students should face a judge and be given some sort of community service as a part of punishment.

What happens next? Lets say George is arrested and tried and he is judged not guilty. I can see a repeat of the Rodney King verdict and result which ended up with a truck driver named Reginald Denny being dragged out of his truck at an intersection and being beaten senseless.

Through all of this people are forgetting the real injustice and the life of Trayvon Martin, it's easier apparently to cast stones, place death threats.....as have been made towards George Zimmerman, and vandalize property.

I'm cold for saying this but I look at as karma for allowing a law where anyone can shoot anyone else for any reason to exist. I think stuff like this is just the tip of the iceberg especially if Zimmerman continues to wander around freely.
 

D_Bob_Crotchitch

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It is ridiculous to make this about left or right wingers. A young man was shot. He will never come back. Nothing can ever take the pain from his parents hearts.
It was bad police work. They should have charged Zimmerman when he was brought in for questioning. They didn't do it, and now must go through a proper investigation to keep him from getting off on a technicality. Crooks get set free by the courts because of simple technicalities. I talked to two peeps I know in law enforcement. Off the record, they couldn't believe the bad police work.
 

redneckgymrat

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Fine. Whatever. If Zimmerman is never arrested, I hope that the he feels the full wrath of the bitch goddess karma 100 fold and that he enjoys the rest of his life in isolation. We'll have to agree to disagree once again.

You're actually smart, and not just an ideologue...so I know that you'll understand when I say that I do not condone his actions. I think he was entirely in the wrong. But, y'gotta prove it, legally, otherwise it's just a witch hunt. Due process, and all. And, notice, that I did specify where the police fell down on their end of it.

As for the bitch goddess, Shiva would be my first choice. Namaste.