Trouble in Norway

earllogjam

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This guy seems like he would be an ardent sycophant of Glen Beck if he lived in the states.

I always thought the cancer know as Glen Beck and his misguided love of God stopped at our borders. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it's the case.
 
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Calboner

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Bullshit yerself, you can dress execution up in all manner of sophistry and pretence but it remains a form of legally sanctioned life taking.
No one disputes that the death penalty is legally sanctioned taking of human life. What is disputable is your glib equation of "life taking" with "murder." No one who makes that equation is in a position to accuse anyone else of sophistry.
The origins and underlying justifications for execution are primitive eye for an eye-type logics which are about nothing but taking vengeance.
A system of criminal law is the antithesis of vengeance, whatever the method of punishment that it employs. Criminal law exists precisely to prevent vengeance. Rather than privately exacting retribution for offenses against them, citizens are compelled to let courts of law decide on guilt and punishment. If the accused is found innocent, he or she goes free unpunished; if he or she is found guilty, the punishment is determined by the judge under the law, not by the desires of the victims or any other private citizens. Legal measures alone can bring the cycle of vengeance to an end, as Aeschylus made pretty plain about 2400 years ago in the Oresteia.

Let me ask you this: Do you consider it "vengeance" when, e.g., someone found guilty of fraud, or theft, or even murder for that matter, is sent to prison for his or her crime? I take it that you don't. So why, when the punishment is death rather than imprisonment, does the administration of punishment suddenly become "vengeance"?
The exact purpose of execution is to meet out death for death (or in some cases death as the punishment for other transgressions).
Yes.
If the state executes murderers it is taking vengeance on them.
No, for reasons that I have given.
You may be satisfied with a system which does this. I personally find such systems morally bankrupt.
I really don't care whether you think so or not, and I have no settled view on the matter myself. But I care very much whether people make honest arguments, as I have been trying to do, or resort to sophistry and rhetorical tricks to make their case, as you have been doing.
War is mass murder, that is a fact. Denying that is absurd, just as denying that execution is judicially sanctioned murder makes no sense whatsoever.
I think you are just blustering. But obviously, my appeal to that comparison did not work with you. But I don't want to get off on another controversy which is not necessary to the main issue.
That the law sanctions something does not imply that this something is qualitatively any different from the same phenomenon taking place in the absence of legal sanction.


If you execute a murderer by judicial sanction there is no particular difference to that murderer having been lynched by a mob and strung up in a tree. The Judge and Jury merely lend a spurious legal and ceremonial camouflage to an act of vengeance. In fact the Judge and the Jury are the formalised proxies of the lynch-mob.
I find your reasoning childish. I am not sure what you mean by "qualitative" difference or "particular" difference, but maybe you should look at someplace like Somalia to get an idea of the difference between life under the rule of violent mobs and life under the rule of law.

One could as legitimately argue that there is no "qualitative" or "particular" difference between imprisonment (as a penalty imposed by a court of law) and kidnapping, and that the judge and jury merely lend a ceremonial guise to the act of kidnapping. Or that there is no difference between being compelled under the law to pay a fine and being robbed by a bandit. (Edited to add: Come to think of it, there are plenty of right-wing wackos in my country who would make exactly that equation. Funny how extremes meet, isn't it, Hilaire?)

Your arguments do not establish that there is anything especially objectionable about the death penalty as against other forms of punishment. The entirety of your argument, if it can be called that, consists in equating capital punishment with vengeance and murder. But there is no more basis for that than there is for equating imprisonment with kidnapping or the imposition of fines with robbery.
That you object so strongly to execution being described in terms which most simply express what it actually is
No, I object to the swindles and cheap verbal tricks to which you resort in lieu of honest arguments.
suggests that you do not wish to examine the real nature of the phenomenon. This is perhaps because you are aware that too close an examination would reveal aspects of this phenomenon that you would be uncomfortable with, and that because I suspect you to be a person of thoughtful morality.
Well, thank you, sir.
 
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luka82

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I am very saddened that in the 21st century there are people who are pro death penalty.
In my opinion, that`s quite barbaric.
 

Calboner

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Examples of legitimate arguments against capital punishment:

(1) "The criminal justice system in the US has been abundantly proved to be inherently subject to error, not least of all where capital crimes are concerned, while the death penalty is a punishment for which no restitution is possible in cases of wrongful conviction. Justice therefore requires that it be abolished."

(2) "The death penalty has no greater deterrent effect than life imprisonment and forecloses all possibility of reform of the criminal. It has no benefit to anyone other than the gratification of the lust for vengeance on the part of some members of the public. This last, however, is rather a mark against it than for it. Thus, the death penalty does no good whatever for anyone and degrades the public morality of any state in which it is practiced."

Example of illegitimate argument, or sophistical pseudo-argument, against the death penalty:

"Capital punishment is judicial murder. It is just the same as lynching."

Get the point?
 

helgaleena

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Capital punishment is not the topic of this thread. Bloodthirsty societies still exist, but the EU isn't one of them. And Norway hasn't been one since they got rid of Quisling.
 

OhWiseOne

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I'm going to be bold here based on the OP's point.

He was concerned about the thoughts of the killer and the well being of the families. All the agenda crap needs to be put to the side. People are hurting and fuck what any one of you think about the pro's and con's of the death penalty. Think about the families right now, if you can.

Report me ban me I don't care. Please step back and take a breath as a I am.

The sun will come up tomorrow and reality will still exist.
 

B_crackoff

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I find any post that references Chip "every conspiracy theory is wrong except mine - aargh the skinhead Klansmen & Pat Buchanan are coming!" Berlet a bit laughable.

Chip Berlet is the epitome of cultural Marxists - they call every one a fascist, or a person/group to ORGANIZE against, if they don't agree with them.

This is a man who acknowledges that statistically most violent "hate" (& we all know who determined what is "hate") crimes are by individuals unassociated with any group , YET maintains that there is a secret subculture of hate pervasive in society that we must be vigilant against.

NO proof, NO facts, & zero science, but this twat is listened to because it plays to his audience's own bigotry & prejudice.

Hardly a defender of free speech then:wink:. Not exactly tolerant either!

Even the Mail On Sunday had a hard time swallowing how something could swing from being Al Qaeda to Christian Fundamentalist.

Using words like Christian fundamentalism is classic cultural marxist smearing. There's no evidence for such, & can't possibly be with such a senior freemason. The 2 cannot go together. An average Christian , or Christian ethics too, maybe- but one who is zealous in the words of the lord a freemason - don't think so.

It just shows how the left is as Faux as Fox - (let's get rid of faith schools now - yay!):wink:

It's amazing how the leftie luvvies all gathered around to support alleged rapist Julian Assange though, isn't it? Funny how they all gathered around rapist pedophile Roman Polanski too.

I'm sorry for dragging the comments further away from the tragedy Norway has suffered, but it was veering off profoundly anyway.
 
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B_crackoff

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Capital punishment is not the topic of this thread. Bloodthirsty societies still exist, but the EU isn't one of them. And Norway hasn't been one since they got rid of Quisling.

The EU still has the death penalty! They play at being loving squishy socialists, but tucked away in the Lisbon Treaty you'll find that you can be executed AT ANY TIME during a period of war, riots or upheaval.

You'll have to be a good reader, because it's the footnote of a footnote, tucked away nicely
.Cranmer: Lisbon Treaty introduces EU-wide death penalty

This is a very easy, & legal way of getting rid of any political opposition, don't you think? There are also laws which make it illegal to criticise the EU ITSELF! Is that a democracy!!???!:frown1::confused:

It's not like countries in the EU aren't involved in all 3 now. How much of a push would it take?

Fascism/totalitarianism/whatever - it's a left wing/liberal game I'm afraid.
 
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D_Tim McGnaw

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The EU still has the death penalty! They play at being loving squishy socialists, but tucked away in the Lisbon Treaty you'll find that you can be executed AT ANY TIME during a period of war, riots or upheaval.

You'll have to be a good reader, because it's the footnote of a footnote, tucked away nicely.

This is a very easy, & legal way of getting rid of any political opposition, don't you think? There are also laws which make it illegal to criticise the EU ITSELF!

It's not like countries in the EU aren't involved in all 3 now. How much of a push would it take?

Facism - it's a left wing/liberal game I'm afraid.



OK I'll admit a minor hand in this (for which I apologise btw), but tbh this kind of stuff (and I'm not singling you out or anything Crackoff, and I'm just saying this as a member not a Mod) is somewhat off-topic, and given that there have been some requests to try and keep the discussion vaguely on topic maybe we should take some of these discussions to PM (as I have decided to do with Calboner) or to other threads. :wink:
 
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bigbull29

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Not all states in the US have the death penalty. Please don't be generalizing the US in this regard. Get your facts straight. :rolleyes:

I know it's "à la mode" to bash the US and praise Canada and the EU on LPSG, but let's present facts and show civility and respect to each other when discussing other countries.

I'm opposed to both abortion and capital punishment in most cases, but at least the latter are not innocent (or not supposed to be). The only time I support the death penalty is when a murderer/terrorist can still bring about harm from inside his prison cell, or in cases such as Osama Bin Laden.

This is not a "capital punishment" thread, anyways, so let's all get back on topic :rolleyes:
 
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helgaleena

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I find any post that references Chip "every conspiracy theory is wrong except mine - aargh the skinhead Klansmen & Pat Buchanan are coming!" Berlet a bit laughable.



>snip<

Using words like Christian fundamentalism is classic cultural marxist smearing. There's no evidence for such, & can't possibly be with such a senior freemason. The 2 cannot go together. An average Christian , or Christian ethics too, maybe- but one who is zealous in the words of the lord a freemason - don't think so.

Fundamentalist Christianity is well represented in the USA. Be glad there are not so many of them where you live, crackoff.

I am no expert on Norwegian Christianity, but I know they have them in Finland. Laestadians, they are called. And quite a few moved here to the 'promised land', as well as socialists under death threat after Finnish independence. Sure they are not making the headlines as much as the southern fried sorts, but they are all overin the piney woods up here. And they don't end up in grad school very often.
 

bigbull29

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Another thing:

Some countries better stop the finger-pointing at other countries and worry about their own backyards. I love foreign cultures and languages more than anyone I know, but realities are realities, no matter how much we like to deny them.

I've been appalled by so many foreignors who are so damn ignorant of the US because of the media in their own country, or because of their one-time visit to NYC or something. If you are all so damn smart, get your shit together. After a while, I lose my patience...
 
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B_crackoff

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Fundamentalist Christianity is well represented in the USA. Be glad there are not so many of them where you live, crackoff.

I am no expert on Norwegian Christianity, but I know they have them in Finland. Laestadians, they are called. And quite a few moved here to the 'promised land', as well as socialists under death threat after Finnish independence. Sure they are not making the headlines as much as the southern fried sorts, but they are all overin the piney woods up here. And they don't end up in grad school very often.

With a nod to the courteous words Hilaire used, I'd ask ask you are they self described as such? Or is that moniker plonked upon them by those who disagree with them? I'm sure you wouldn't want to be called a wicked witch, or any Salem related rubbish!:eek::wink::biggrin1:

I'd also remark that grad school is pointless for those more suited to trades. Going to grad school, or any Further Ed doesn't make you a better person, or in any way more useful.

What we have is divide & rule by language. I keep saying it all seems a question of "my prejudice is better than yours". The more any group is ostracized, the greater the fear of it, & the greater fear that group has of others.

I'm pretty odd in the fact that I have friends across the spectrum, from one extreme to the other, & though I barely agree with what any of them say, I recognise that their life experiences brought them to that place. I never judge anyone for their view IRL - though I always (can't keep my big mouth shut) counsel them to be a bit more tolerant.

The people to be scared of are those that do divide whilst preaching unity , & mad people with power- not those who are really just afraid - sometimes with good reason, whatever their side.

There are Laestadians in Norway too, but although you may call them Christian fundamentalists by their beliefs, they are not extremists. Christian extremists are rare over here too, and with the exception of a few anti-abortion activists about 20 years ago, they are pretty much non-existent.

I am also proud to see that the reaction to the killings have mainly been a fantastic sense comradeship and support between people of all political and religious groups, instead of feelings of blind revenge and hatred. The young surviving girl who said to CNN "when one person manages to do this out of hate, think how much we can do with love", was quoted by the prime minister in his first official reaction.

I've known a lot of Scandanavians, & if I wasn't what I was, I'd rather be Norwegian! It's pretty hard to immigrate there though! Everyone I've met has been sensible, fun, intelligent, & serious, at the same time.

Norway will pull through this of course, I just hope that they don't erode the personal freedoms that Norwegians enjoy today.
 
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Mensch1351

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well yes, it is rather USA style armed wackery, isn't it? Sad it happens other places as much as here.

If Norway still had human sacrifice, like in Viking days, he'd be perfect for the wicker cage. But they don't.

In USA prisons the inmates would likely be allowed to unofficially visit him, after which he'd be dead of unspecified natural causes, like Dahmer.

In UAE he'd be beheaded.

In China he'd be at hard labor until his health gave out.

Leave it to the Chinese to take the practical approach.......maybe we can "outsource" Bernie Madoff to China!!
 

helgaleena

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Leave it to the Chinese to take the practical approach.......maybe we can "outsource" Bernie Madoff to China!!
Oh yes, he'd be mining gold at WoW all night and moving ore all day.

Crackoff asked if I had Laestadian in me. I have Freemasons on one side and Laestadiians on the other, plus a great aunt that moved to the Ukraine in the forties with her socialist husband. But moi, I am a Druid. Not a drop of Celt in me though.

Oh yes, Laestadians are not insane, just eschew all idolatry.
 

helgaleena

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There are Laestadians in Norway too, but although you may call them Christian fundamentalists by their beliefs, they are not extremists. Christian extremists are rare over here too, and with the exception of a few anti-abortion activists about 20 years ago, they are pretty much non-existent.

Not having read this killer's manifesto, I think from what has emerged in the press so far, he is a man who has mixed bits and pieces of various ideologies to suit his own twisted, self-righteous world view.

And as for the EU and death penalty, I assume everyone knows that Norway is not a member of the EU. Norway abolished the death penalty in 1904, it was briefly reinstated as a wartime measure in 1942 by the exile government in anticipation of the post-war trials. This possibility was then removed from the legal system in the late 1970s, so Norway has completely abolished the death penalty.

I am also proud to see that the reaction to the killings have mainly been a fantastic sense comradeship and support between people of all political and religious groups, instead of feelings of blind revenge and hatred. The young surviving girl who said to CNN "when one person manages to do this out of hate, think how much we can do with love", was quoted by the prime minister in his first official reaction.

Thanks for speaking up for the fine people of Norway. I greatly enjoyed my short time residing in Oslo-- even though it was horribly dark in winter.
 

Calboner

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Never having encountered the word before, I looked up "Laestadianism" at Wikipedia. After the introductory paragraph, I read this:

Wikipedia said:
Because of doctrinal opinion differences the movement has been split into 19 branches, of which about 15 are active today.
Yeah, that sounds like a bunch of reasonable people. :rolleyes: