I agree with your post completly. Well said. I do think there are times when some guys thoughts wander while in close contact situations. They may never express or act on them in any way. Most guys are brought up convinced that closeness or contact on any level is the worst thing we could ever do. From grade school on, being called a "fag" is a complete horror show.
Trust between men
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This is the best thread LPSG has seen a long time. I have a lot of thoughts I want to express but don't dare until they're complete.
Wonderful thread, and some very thoughtful ideas here. I am very encouraged by the intimacy skills of both younger gay and straight men, as they generally just seem less hung up in general around male/male emotional intimacy. I for many years have observed what I thought to be the profound loneliness of straight men for male friendship with great sadness. Being gay is no picnic, but at least we have an easier time understanding and relating to the objects of our affection. I have nothing but respect for straight men who have close emotional ties to other men, regardless of orientation. So much of our society discourages that type of intimacy between men.
scottbud
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sjprep06
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Wow, kudos to Jumbo for creating this thread. This topic had been on my mind for a while now but I just couldn't think of a way to express or even process the thought properly. I can only say that I am slightly jealous of all you guys that have close guy friends. You are extremely lucky and I can only hope that one day I'll experience the same thing
ah, jumbo. how well said. what i wouldn't do and who i would'nt kill just to have a guy friend who i can honestly talk to and spill all of my secrets. i have good friends but no one who i can honestly share stuff with. I mostly have girl friends and i can't imagine discussing some of the stuff that i think about.
Guys just understand each other easier. I have a next door neighbor (who's a guy) who i have been great friends with but we've never got to that level of intimacy. i don't know why. We've been friends from an early age, but there was always something blocking us from going to that next level. i really do love him, and i hope he feels the same way. We e-mail each other now and then and i hardly see him in college (we go to the same one) and we don't really get to go out like that either, cause he's really not the going out type. i really wish, hope and pray that we reach that level one of these days.
Great thread. I don't know where to start agreeing because there's just too many points out there to agree with, and it makes me feel bonded with guy-dom even more.
I would have to agree that a lot of my bisexual behavior and sexual attraction is driven by unfulfilled needs. I have no siblings, no bond with my parents, brought up in fear of my own father, never got good enough to play in team sports (tennis is my favorite sport), never got super close with a bunch of male friends. My male friendships, whether gay or str8, are mostly one-on-one. None of my gay relationships ever lasted long, nor were they as emotionally fulfilling as my heterosexual relationships.
I think, ultimately, when we do become sexual, many of our needs are sexualised, and depending on our needs the things we do with other men will vary. Some will be "gay" enough, some "curious", some not. I have a friend who came out as gay (although told me secretly that he's bi) just because he's grown sick and tired of explaining himself to people, majority of whom want to see the world in simpler terms, i.e. man and woman, gay and straight. Anything in between just doesn't make sense. They try to understand, sure, but it's the whole explaining bit that's a pain. And then you get people who don't believe there is a gray area, "pick a team" "who's side are you on?" "You're just saying you're bi."
Most of my sexual activity with men are definitely gay enough on the outside, but who knows what goes on inside? Where is it coming from? To me gay sex is fulfilling my need to bond with other men, especially when I'm with another bi guy, I suddenly get a glimpse of some manhood I've missed out on. For a few moments it feels like I actually know what it's like to have had a father, brothers, and a football team. I really enjoy talking about our girlfriends and other guy stuff while we're hugging in bed. The sex was just another part of it, not the main event.
It's really hard to categorise and understand the whole spectrum of male sexuality, what drives it, why it's different for every man, but the best thing about this thread is that it focuses on the gray areas, and brings people just another little step closer to a society where sexuality is no longer an issue.
I would have to agree that a lot of my bisexual behavior and sexual attraction is driven by unfulfilled needs. I have no siblings, no bond with my parents, brought up in fear of my own father, never got good enough to play in team sports (tennis is my favorite sport), never got super close with a bunch of male friends. My male friendships, whether gay or str8, are mostly one-on-one. None of my gay relationships ever lasted long, nor were they as emotionally fulfilling as my heterosexual relationships.
I think, ultimately, when we do become sexual, many of our needs are sexualised, and depending on our needs the things we do with other men will vary. Some will be "gay" enough, some "curious", some not. I have a friend who came out as gay (although told me secretly that he's bi) just because he's grown sick and tired of explaining himself to people, majority of whom want to see the world in simpler terms, i.e. man and woman, gay and straight. Anything in between just doesn't make sense. They try to understand, sure, but it's the whole explaining bit that's a pain. And then you get people who don't believe there is a gray area, "pick a team" "who's side are you on?" "You're just saying you're bi."
Most of my sexual activity with men are definitely gay enough on the outside, but who knows what goes on inside? Where is it coming from? To me gay sex is fulfilling my need to bond with other men, especially when I'm with another bi guy, I suddenly get a glimpse of some manhood I've missed out on. For a few moments it feels like I actually know what it's like to have had a father, brothers, and a football team. I really enjoy talking about our girlfriends and other guy stuff while we're hugging in bed. The sex was just another part of it, not the main event.
It's really hard to categorise and understand the whole spectrum of male sexuality, what drives it, why it's different for every man, but the best thing about this thread is that it focuses on the gray areas, and brings people just another little step closer to a society where sexuality is no longer an issue.
invisibleman
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I will say that having a relationship--friendship or otherwise--with some men CAN be conditional, judgmental, and bitchy though. (Think about it.)
I know guys who judge other men based on their body height-weight proportions...cock size...jobs...masculinity...class...religion...sex fetish...EVEN cars...etcetera.
Here's a thought that just came together well enough to actually speak. I hope!
There's a vague notion running through many of our threads that some sexual feelings are "real", and some are a kind of false reading based on unfulfilled needs. For instance: a straight man has "real" sexual feelings toward women, but "false" sexual feelings toward men because of childhood experiences, fear of inadequacy, etc.
Why make these disinctions? Are we so sure that our "real" sexual feelings are based on something more substantial than the "false" ones? I'm gay - why do I desire men? Is it so different than the times when I might feel some attraction to a woman? In the end, I think it's always about wanting to make emotional contact, anyway.
Just a thought.
There's a vague notion running through many of our threads that some sexual feelings are "real", and some are a kind of false reading based on unfulfilled needs. For instance: a straight man has "real" sexual feelings toward women, but "false" sexual feelings toward men because of childhood experiences, fear of inadequacy, etc.
Why make these disinctions? Are we so sure that our "real" sexual feelings are based on something more substantial than the "false" ones? I'm gay - why do I desire men? Is it so different than the times when I might feel some attraction to a woman? In the end, I think it's always about wanting to make emotional contact, anyway.
Just a thought.
Well, I've had "my say" earlier in this great thread.
What I keep hearing from some of your responses (especially the IMs I've recv'd this week) is that there's still some vague sense of "disconnectedness" (being around other men). That's what is behind many of our feelings and behavior. Sometimes, this feeling defies description. But, it's a real one and it can be a cutting, sometimes dibilitating source of frustration. It ultimately impedes (and discourages) self-confidence for many of us men.
Like others have expressed so well, guys need good male friends in their lives and this concept isn't readily encouraged--especially in the U.S. because there's always some negative, condemning sexual stigma or connotation somehow attached to it. It's such a shame. We may get close to such a friendship only to find ourselves (reluctantly) pulling away for fear of what someone might say about us.
"Sex" .....so often can have absolutely nothing to do with these feelings of wanting friendship and companionship. Interestingly though, going a very long time without personal contact and intimacy with someone (and the validation and affirmation this can bring) gets transferred next into trying to fulfill ungratified sexual needs, too. All this occurs without even recognizing (or understanding) that it's happening. It's like a vicious cycle going on, one event feeding (and leading into) another.
Many of us wound up feeling uncomfortable around women as we matured. But, how could we? We weren't comfortable around being near men either! Emotionally, we have to feel accepted by our same gender first before we next move into opposite sex relationships. It's a process that cruelly got interrupted for some of us in early life.
I dunno. I've just heard from so many other guys (like myself with backgrounds similar to mine which I've described above) to convince me otherwise. But even admitting to (and accepting) this "life pattern"....has taken me years.
What I keep hearing from some of your responses (especially the IMs I've recv'd this week) is that there's still some vague sense of "disconnectedness" (being around other men). That's what is behind many of our feelings and behavior. Sometimes, this feeling defies description. But, it's a real one and it can be a cutting, sometimes dibilitating source of frustration. It ultimately impedes (and discourages) self-confidence for many of us men.
Like others have expressed so well, guys need good male friends in their lives and this concept isn't readily encouraged--especially in the U.S. because there's always some negative, condemning sexual stigma or connotation somehow attached to it. It's such a shame. We may get close to such a friendship only to find ourselves (reluctantly) pulling away for fear of what someone might say about us.
"Sex" .....so often can have absolutely nothing to do with these feelings of wanting friendship and companionship. Interestingly though, going a very long time without personal contact and intimacy with someone (and the validation and affirmation this can bring) gets transferred next into trying to fulfill ungratified sexual needs, too. All this occurs without even recognizing (or understanding) that it's happening. It's like a vicious cycle going on, one event feeding (and leading into) another.
Many of us wound up feeling uncomfortable around women as we matured. But, how could we? We weren't comfortable around being near men either! Emotionally, we have to feel accepted by our same gender first before we next move into opposite sex relationships. It's a process that cruelly got interrupted for some of us in early life.
I dunno. I've just heard from so many other guys (like myself with backgrounds similar to mine which I've described above) to convince me otherwise. But even admitting to (and accepting) this "life pattern"....has taken me years.
I am really glad that so many of you find the topic of this thread as interesting as I do.
Having said that, I get a feeling that some of you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I did NOT mean that bisexuals are misguided in any way or that their feelings aren't 100% true.
What I DID say was that I have a feeling that SOME men, who consider themselves to be mostly hetero sexual, misinterpret their wanting/craving/need/urge for close relationships/bonds with other men.
Just wanted to clarify that.
Cheers
Having said that, I get a feeling that some of you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I did NOT mean that bisexuals are misguided in any way or that their feelings aren't 100% true.
What I DID say was that I have a feeling that SOME men, who consider themselves to be mostly hetero sexual, misinterpret their wanting/craving/need/urge for close relationships/bonds with other men.
Just wanted to clarify that.
Cheers
Exactly. :wink:
It took nine sessions of counseling and lots of reading to help me work out some of this stuff for me. Maybe our dialogue here WILL benefit others and spare them from all the tormenting confusion.
Wow...just...wow. This is one of the best threads ever on LPSG, and like several others have said, it's hard to decide where to begin agreeing, since there are so many things to agree with.
Seriously, I think this hits all of my "hot buttons" in realizing just how fine a line it is between needing masculine friendships, intimacy and brotherhood -- and wanting a shoot a load with a buddy.
It's a very...VERY fine line. And I'm beginning to wonder why that line is even there!
Seriously, I think this hits all of my "hot buttons" in realizing just how fine a line it is between needing masculine friendships, intimacy and brotherhood -- and wanting a shoot a load with a buddy.
It's a very...VERY fine line. And I'm beginning to wonder why that line is even there!
If you really look at it, jerking off and cumming with a buddy is pretty intimate. But I think we guys are so used to masturbating alone & doing it so often that it doesn't seem special when doing it with someone else. What I've noticed is that if I'm jerking with a guy I really care about, there is an emotional bond that doesn't exist in other situations. Also if I'm making out with a buddy AND jerking off together, it's really intense and emotionally satisfying. At the same time, the experience may cause us to feel uncomfortable not because of the fear of being gay but because of the intimacy that's not completely understood. You'd think that it would bring people closer together but sometimes just the opposite happens. Weird.
D_Gunther Snotpole
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At the same time, the experience may cause us to feel uncomfortable not because of the fear of being gay but because of the intimacy that's not completely understood. You'd think that it would bring people closer together but sometimes just the opposite happens. Weird.
Nice post.
But isn't the discomfort precisely because of the uncertainty about whether there's a gay component in the intimacy?
You tell me, Jon ... I can't speak for you.
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I often times find myself very jealous of the close friendships I see between straight guys. I actually feel like gay guys are in a way at a disadvantage when it comes to this. I feel like a close friendship among straight guys is a great thing because they all can relate to each other very easily as all being straight guys but at the same time there usually isn't the drama or uncertainty that can come from a friendship between 2 gay guys. Often times it seems like gay friendships can become a little catty or there could be some tension if one person may have more than just feelings of friendship. Also I have found that in the rare occassion that I have made a really close gay friend, that relationship comes under attack if one of the guys gets into a romantic relationship with someone else--either the new boyfriend gets jealous of the friendship or the one not in a relationship gets jealous of the relationship. I don't think there are nearly as many problems with girlfriends getting jealous of the friendship between 2 straight guys or at least there isn't the acusation of it being more than friendship.
There are also issues with gay guys being friends with girls. In my experience at least, girls are really good friends to gay guys when they are single and lonely. I hope not to offend anybody by this and I know I am over-generalizing but it seems that most girls will become MIA as soon as a new guy (or girl) comes into their life. To me at least, it doesn't seem like as many guys (straight or gay) ditch their girl-friends.
And finally, to wrap up my cynical post, it seems to me that many straight guys (not all) are nervous to have a close friendship with a gay guy because they are either nervous the gay guy is interested in more, they are nervous others will think they are gay, or both.
I definitely for the most part feel straight guys don't need to be jealous of gay friendships--there may be more hugs and less fear of criticism from others, but I wouldn't say the friendships between gay guys are any deeper.
There are also issues with gay guys being friends with girls. In my experience at least, girls are really good friends to gay guys when they are single and lonely. I hope not to offend anybody by this and I know I am over-generalizing but it seems that most girls will become MIA as soon as a new guy (or girl) comes into their life. To me at least, it doesn't seem like as many guys (straight or gay) ditch their girl-friends.
And finally, to wrap up my cynical post, it seems to me that many straight guys (not all) are nervous to have a close friendship with a gay guy because they are either nervous the gay guy is interested in more, they are nervous others will think they are gay, or both.
I definitely for the most part feel straight guys don't need to be jealous of gay friendships--there may be more hugs and less fear of criticism from others, but I wouldn't say the friendships between gay guys are any deeper.
Humanity is getting farther and farther from its primitive beginnings, when we probably related to each other in a more honest way,..as
animals. In turn, relationships between men (young and old) are changing, because the things we're doing together and not doing together are changing. Our expectations of each other are changing, because the world's expectations of us --what is admirable or acceptable-- are changing; so men are finding new ways to relate to each other (RPG, war games, frottage, cyber-sex etc). I think Jumbo is correct in observing that some of it is getting lost or mangled in translation from old to new.Affection for another guy, and even curiosity about his anatomy, doesn't mean you want to screw him.
That said, Jumbo,..I respect you as an intellectual, a potential friend and brother, and I'm deeply ashamed that I think I want to see your big, Danish wee-wee.
That said, Jumbo,..I respect you as an intellectual, a potential friend and brother, and I'm deeply ashamed that I think I want to see your big, Danish wee-wee.
LMAO:biggrin1::biggrin1:
Thanks for the comment. I guess what I was getting at is that when guys are jerking off together it's usually a spontaneous thing, and the emotional intimacy isn't expected. It's the same with a girl when a sexual experience just happens. I know when I've been with a guy & we're just jerking & it turns into something more emotional, there's always a feeling of surprise or shock. First it was just this horny mutual getting-off thing, & then there are feelings involved. I think emotions change everything. I had this one buddy who almost cried after we were together. Like I say, it's a powerful thing that may confuse peeps. You may be right though about the gay thing partially but my buddies aren't really homophobic. :smile:
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