Truth About Hillsborough

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798686

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Classified papers detailing the events in April 1989, when 96 Liverpool fans were killed, have finally been released.

Finally, the families get to know how many could have potentially been saved, had things been handled differently - and also whether there was any cover up (West Yorks Police, and the emergency services strenuously tried to deflect blame, apparently).

I'm not interested in blaming people for the disaster - but I think it's right that the families involved now have access to the facts.

On another note - credit to the current government for issuing an apology, and allowing the papers to be released. I think openness like this (and regarding incidents in N. Ireland, and colonial Africa, etc) is to be commended, and allows people to learn from mistakes and move on, without the government of the day being complicit in any continued cover-up.

NB: I can partly understand (but not excuse) the initial cover up, from a human nature pov, since it was an impossible and horrific situation. But still fair that everything's been laid bare.
 
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D_Harry_Derriere

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It was an horrific day and just thinking about it gives me horrible flashbacks to that day, you almost didn't want to attend another football match, it was truly frightening. The same very nearly almost happened in 1981 when Wolves played there against Spurs, many Spurs fans almost had the same fate and although in comparison to 89 it wasn't major it should have been enough to send out warning signs of what could be. But no, everyone got tarnished with the "drunken football hooligans" that was causing these problems, and nothing got done.

After what happened then for Thatcher's favourite 'newspaper' The "Scum" to then go on and print what they did was a disgrace to those that lost their lives and I think everyone involved in football back then really knows the real truth of behind what happened.

Hopefully the new evidence will put things which are long overdue right.

Justice for the 96.
 
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^ Didn't know you were there, man. :(
Our next-door neighbour was pulled up onto the balcony and rescued, but I wasn't there meself.
 

D_Harry_Derriere

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No mate...I wasn't, I meant seeing it on telly, sorry for the misunderstanding.... but was at Hillsborough in 1981, Spurs were in the Leppings Lane end that day...got overcrowded, fans HAD to get on the pitch to save their lives...No fences in those days, Thatchers hatred of all things working class hadn't had time to develop then!

I was at Aldershot that day....hearing the news on Radio 2 coming home, the coach was just numb all the way back...Only 16 at the time
 
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No mate...I wasn't, I meant seeing it on telly, sorry for the misunderstanding.... but was at Hillsborough in 1981, Spurs were in the Leppings Lane end that day...got overcrowded, fans HAD to get on the pitch to save their lives...No fences in those days, Thatchers hatred of all things working class hadn't had time to develop then!

I was at Aldershot that day....hearing the news on Radio 2 coming home, the coach was just numb all the way back...Only 16 at the time
Ahh no probs. Yep - apparently the overcrowding problems were known, and had surfaced in 87 and 88. Negligence on a massive level.

I have to say - I'm sure no-one deliberately wanted something like this to happen, and it would be awful to be in the shoes of someone partially responsible. However... covering it up was unacceptable, and the incompetence/negligence and attitude of the time that contributed, still caused the deaths of 96 ppl. The truth had to be published, convenient or not, if only so it could be learned from - and for some sort of vindication for the families.

Here are the key findings anyway. Did u ever see that Jimmy McGovern dramatisation in the 90s? Harrowing. :(
 

D_Harry_Derriere

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Just read this in the Guardian:

"The panel discovered that up to 41 victims of the Hillsborough disaster on 15 April 1989 could have been saved had the emergency response been better. They also found that 116 of the 164 police statements taken afterwards were doctored to paint the police in a better light, and that the South Yorkshire ambulance service had also altered statements to deflect criticism.

"An earlier inquest by Dr Stefan Popper had controversially imposed a cut-off time of 3.15pm which, said the report, "led to the mistaken belief that an effective emergency services intervention could not have saved lives".'
 
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Yeh, I always wondered about that cut-off point for evidence. Seemed odd.

I'm sure everything was chaotic and ppl didnt know what to do - but the fact remains that some could have been saved had ambulances/medics been allowed on the pitch to treat victims earlier.

All of it's tragic really. :(
 

laffitte

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I have always been suspicious that the authorities had been negligent and incompetent but I never imagined their behaviour had been criminal.

I had a very traumatic experience at a 5th Round Cup match at White Hart Lane with Newcastle in 1987. We were crammed in an unbearable crush behind the goal. When people shouted to the police to open the gates to relieve the crush we were either blatantly ignored or to to "fuck off". Fortunately they eventually did do something and we were able to go into an adjacent 'pen'. An appropriate term as we were treated like cattle. Actually worse than cattle.

Quite difficult now in these sanitised stadiums to imagine how it used to be.

God bless all those 96 poor souls.

I will never forget them. It could have been any of us. It could have been me.

Shame on the authorities. Justice is still to be achieved.
 

B_stanmarsh14

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Me mate Simon was at the Nottingham Forest end aged 15 at the time, and saw the full horror of what went off, and like many Forest fans at the time saw, jumped in to action to help the Liverpool fans where they could.

He's often said to me it still scares him to this very day what happened at Sheffield Wednesdays ground on that day.
 

B_stanmarsh14

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Report here from the Nottingham Evening Post concerning Hillsborough

Hillsborough disaster: A tragedy timeline and what the papers mean | This is Nottingham | This is Nottingham

Loads of stuff here from the Sheffield Star (Also check top stories on the right)

Hillsborough cover-up exposed - Local - The Star

Statement from Sheffield Wednesday FC's Board of Directors.....

http://www.swfc.co.uk/news/article/club-statement-363649.aspx

FULL VIDEO from PM David Cameron, and apology.

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local...-minister-s-statement-in-full-video-1-4921795
 
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D_Harry_Derriere

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I have always been suspicious that the authorities had been negligent and incompetent but I never imagined their behaviour had been criminal.

I had a very traumatic experience at a 5th Round Cup match at White Hart Lane with Newcastle in 1987. We were crammed in an unbearable crush behind the goal. When people shouted to the police to open the gates to relieve the crush we were either blatantly ignored or to to "fuck off". Fortunately they eventually did do something and we were able to go into an adjacent 'pen'. An appropriate term as we were treated like cattle. Actually worse than cattle.

Quite difficult now in these sanitised stadiums to imagine how it used to be.

God bless all those 96 poor souls.

I will never forget them. It could have been any of us. It could have been me.

Shame on the authorities. Justice is still to be achieved.

That end at Whit Hart Lane was horrendous, almost the same lay out as the Leppings Lane End..

Tottenham Hotspur v Newcastle United, FA Cup 5th Round, 1987 - YouTube
 

laffitte

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Thank you for posting that footage. Never realised it existed.

To be honest I have virtually no knowledge of the events on the pitch other than that Spurs won with a penalty from Glen Hoddle. i spent most of the time with my back to the pitch. I had no choice.

Twenty four hours on from the Hillsborough news I am still feeling disturbed and probably more angry.
 

Jason

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The story that has most consequences today is the police cover-up. As I understand it we're not looking at one or two individuals who falsified a document but very many, even a hundred or more, who either themself falsified a document or knew it had been falsified. This suggests an institution-wide acceptance of falsified evidence. I've heard nothing to suggest that South Yorkshire Police are somehow different from any other UK police force.

What does this do for everyone convicted of a crime around this time on evidence presented by the police? If we do get to the stage where we say that there was (is?) institutional falsification of evidence by the police we have tens of thousands of criminal prosecutions which become unsafe. It is possible to imagine hundreds of prisoners who have claimed they are innocent now claiming that the police falsified evidence against them - and in the light of Hillsborough it might be that a retrial would look far more closely at the validity of police evidence.
 
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Oh dear - it does set a huge precedent for reopening cases.
Or... would it only be events on this scale where numerous people colluded?

I'm surprised by the number of doctored accounts, tbh. I expected some but not an avalanche. The coroners 3:15 cut-off however, always seemed arbitrary and 'convenient'.

On another note - in addition to the falsified records, possible survival of 41 if the emergency services had been allowed onto the pitch (or to treat ppl after a certain time), and the negligent refusal to take note of previous overcrowding there... there's the issue that the main view of the emergency services and police was to look for/assume disorder, rather than overcrowding. While this is wrong, I do think it's important to look at it thru the atmosphere of the time. There had been numerous violent episodes with UK fans (Heysel, etc) - and while this seems to have definitely not been a problem @ Sheff, it would have influenced the Police's attitude - partially understandably. It's only one factor of many tho - and possibly the least important.

^ I hesitate to mention that factor actually, since the families and the dead fans have been misjudged for so long. But... in addition to all the previous factors mentioned, it's something that had a bearing on the tragedy (due only to problems within British footie at the time, rather than the fans on Apr 15th).
 
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D_Harry_Derriere

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What no one seems to have mentioned so far is West Midlands Police part in this. Weren't they supposed to have conducted an 'independent' inquiry into South Yorkshire's handling and found 'nothing wrong'?
 
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What no one seems to have mentioned so far is West Midlands Police part in this. Weren't they supposed to have conducted an 'independent' inquiry into South Yorkshire's handling and found 'nothing wrong'?
Eek. :redface:

I'm glad the fans have been exonerated, and it must be a relief for the families. But... with likely prosecutions since laws have been broken (not least the altered accounts), it does seem like it'll drag on for some time yet. :/
 

dandelion

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PACE and recording of all police interviews was introduced because the police were caught out so many times lying about what suspects had said to them. Just because its harder to do, why would they stop lying?

More recently we have the very odd business of the phone tapping by newspapers which is now creeping slowly towards trials based on evidence said police have had for years. Yet before a public outcry the police had deemed the evidence insufficient to take any action. Not obvious why the police deemed it desireable to protect newspaper men who had been breaking the law, but they did. Perhaps the police were compromised by having themselves been unlawfully feeding info to the newspapers, and certainly the suspicion has been publicly aired that they have been paid to do so. Slightly less sinisterly, that a certain mutual assistance occurred with tipoffs or publicity when the police needed it in return for nice stories.

The stuff I have heard suggest there was a complete cockup on the day. Whatever the background of bad crowd behaviour, the police were not paying attention to how they were managing the crowd on that day. Then they totally lied about bad behaviour having caused their mistakes. Since there was no bad behaviour, obviously it did not cause them to make mistakes, they managed that by themselves. Then it sounds very much like the police instantly dropped into cover up mode, so much so that the kept out emergency services who could still have saved some of the, er, witnesses.

And since then, the coverup has been systematized and polished. How can there have been so many investigations without some new people each time covering up information?