U.S. government vows not to use "waterboarding"

Discussion in 'Politics' started by faceking, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,535
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    110
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mavs, NOR * CAL
    U.S. government vows not to use "waterboarding"

    U.S. government vows not to use "waterboarding"

    Curious if that also means that our elite forces can no longer do it as a mere, but difficult, training exercise.

    This is pathetic latching on for the sake of a PR spin.

    Waterboarding, aka a "simulated drownings" = inhumane, and all over the US mainstream media in full detail.

    Beheadings of Westerners, aka slitting of throats slowly = a religious fight, and must NEVER be shown in mainstream media for fear of religious/racial hate, and stereotyping.

    ...because "we're above that".
     
  2. midlifebear

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,908
    Likes Received:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Nevada, Buenos Aires, and Barçelona
    Sounds like an improvement to me. I'd also like them to show all of the flag-covered coffins returning to US soil daily to be interred as well as the total death count of US soldiers and non-mililtary personnel on the evening news, just as we were "exposed" to that same information during every day we were at war and occupying Viet Nam. No more hiding the reality of the human cost of war behind the excuse that it interferes with the privacy of the bereaving families.
     
  3. D_Rod Staffinbone

    D_Rod Staffinbone Account Disabled

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    858
    Likes Received:
    0
    i could be totally wrong but i would venture to guess that you've never served a day in the military, and probably didn't grow up on military bases, or have a parent who was an officer in the u.s. military. because, if you had,
    i think you would have more respect for the "rules" that were put in place following the nazi atrocities of world war II.
    thank god that both mccain and obama recognize the benefits of following the geneva conventions. and, yes, we are "above that" (torture), as always, covert operations still have the necessary loopholes to do their dirty deeds.
     
    #3 D_Rod Staffinbone, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  4. D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2007
    Messages:
    1,539
    Likes Received:
    1
    From wikipedia:

    Torture, according to the United Nations Convention Against Torture, is:
    any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions

    --------------------



    Waterboarding is barbaric, an extension of the medieval sensibility that gave us the "torture rack" - also invented as a means of obtaining information & confessions (or just to satisfy that cruel ugly side of our natures that enjoys seeing others writhing in pain)

    Click here to view an illustrated graphic of the medieval torture rack, the "waterboarding" of it's day:

    File:Streckbett.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    I thought the United States didn't condone torture -- and had evolved beyond medieval practices.
     
    #4 D_Ireonsyd_Colonrinse, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  5. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,002
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    oh, my

    would also possibly have the effect of forcing libs to confront reality

    then if libs ever faced reality, they couldn't be libs anymore
     
    #5 B_Nick4444, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  6. pym

    pym New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is TOO RICH.......Neither of you 2 will ever serve a day of your lives in military service to your country, and here the 2 of you clods are.....telling us 'LIBS' all about reality. HAH!
    Navy VET
    PYM

    PS: NICK, do you Know what a suck-up is?
    Truly Vapid agreements.
    Looking tough and being tough are world's apart.
    Remember that while your stareing at yourself in the mirror.
     
  7. D_Rod Staffinbone

    D_Rod Staffinbone Account Disabled

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    858
    Likes Received:
    0
    really, i think some of you guys might be decent people. but just THINK about it. what kind of animal mindset are you in? how would you want to be treated
    if you were a POW? it's not a "lib" thing, and really if you think it is you need
    read some history about how and why the geneva conventions were put in place. the BAD GUYS do this shit. we're supposed to be the GOOD GUYS. as americans we should be ashamed when the world perceives us as bad guys. as i wrote in my previous post, the CIA has ways around the law, for better or worse.

    there are a lot of decent people, who are also patriotic, serving in the armed forces. it's ludicrous that one even needs to defend the geneva conventions. the u.s. signed on to the geneva conventions following world war II,
    bush & co. ignored it. bush handled it poorly . just one, of the many, missteps bush made that probably helped obama get elected.
     
    #7 D_Rod Staffinbone, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  8. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,002
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    the worst that can be said about waterboarding is that it causes MOMENTARY emotional and physical distress

    Compare that to the examples of actual TORTURE that it is compared with

    let us then obtain the measure -- let us weigh the infliction on a terrorist of momentary distress against the thousands of American lives saved ...

    hmmmm

    I know how I'd vote

    Again, a balancing act -- if YOU were responsible for saving or losing thousands of American lives, what would you attach more weight to?

    (BTW, devil's advocate position, to show the issues involved IN CONTEXT)
     
    #8 B_Nick4444, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  9. sparky11point5

    sparky11point5 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    Messages:
    501
    Likes Received:
    4
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Boston
    Yeah, we are above that, in my opinion. It's what makes the US a better place to live. You think we can be amoral and it not matter?

     
  10. D_Rod Staffinbone

    D_Rod Staffinbone Account Disabled

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    858
    Likes Received:
    0
    torture has been PROVEN to NOT be an effective intelligence tool.
    top military people know that. one is JUST AS LIKELY TO GET A FALSE CONFESSION AS ANY RELIABLE INTELLIGENCE with torture. the terrorist truly committed to his cause usually will DIE RATHER THAN RELEASE ANY TRUE INFORMATION. what is it with you guys? waterboarding IS "torture", mccain knows it, top military people know it.
    the military cannot use it, the CIA still CAN. i hope that makes your little black hearts sing with joy.
     
    #10 D_Rod Staffinbone, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  11. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,002
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    again, what would YOU do?

    which gets to the point I was making, about reportage divorced from reality -- leads to quick, facile, and irrelevant moralizing
     
  12. pym

    pym New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2008
    Messages:
    1,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's just it, isn't it. My experiance with 'Fakething' is post after post of being on the wrong side of every issue.......Every fucking one. And i'm sure he thinks he is quite CUTTING EDGE. Does'nt show though does it?
    And of course 'SNICK' the ever faithfull lackey. Of course his idea of what the military is for is well evidenced by his gallery and sign-off. Despite what he may think......I served with 5000 shipmates on the 'PRISE' and if anyone would have tried to 'Man'handle me or my shipmates in a DRUNKEN state...{even in there best motorcycle leather 'dude' outfit}....i will tell you for a fact.......Multiple fractures would have rapidly ensued. But of course.......we proudly served our country, and 'GUYS' like SNICK never concerned us patriots. Yeah....waterboarding and self-administered ENEMA's are NOT the same. One is Torture, the other....a kink.
     
  13. D_Rod Staffinbone

    D_Rod Staffinbone Account Disabled

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Messages:
    858
    Likes Received:
    0
    i'd leave the waterboarding to the covert thugs who are into that business and let those who wear the uniform of the u.s. military remain untarnished.

    i don't understand why some of you guys don't express your righteous indignation about being misled (by the likes of bush, cheney & co.). those guys say waterboarding isn't torture to cover their ass against war crimes charges. (it will never happen, even obama would probably go out of his way to keep a former u.s. president from being charged with war crimes.)

    bush and cheney ARE THE REASON obama was elected. even most of middle america knows when they've been duped. "moral compass" my ass. if anyone in congress, from either major party, has a moral compass, i'd love to know who it is.
     
    #13 D_Rod Staffinbone, Mar 3, 2009
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2009
  14. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    10,516
    Likes Received:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Boston, MA / New York, NY
    Wait a minute... Are there some people actually trying to condone waterboarding on this thread???? My GOD what has happened to some of intelligence on this board?!
     
  15. Elmer Gantry

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,503
    Albums:
    2
    Likes Received:
    554
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne (VIC, AU)
    Yes, I'd think we should be.

    Torture should be condemned because it is inhumane and barbaric. Beheadings aren't shown on the 6 o'clock news because they are more than a little disturbing, not because it will inspire religios/racial hate. We have other sectors of the media who are perfectly competent at that.

    Just because we have iPods and houses in the 'burbs doesn't make us civilised. The blood lust of posts like this make me despair for any sort of way out of this fictitious mess.
     
  16. dong20

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2006
    Messages:
    6,130
    Likes Received:
    5
    Location:
    The grey country
    But isn't the argument less about the nature of torture itself, than what is says about those who use, or condone it?
    Semantic games. If you believe waterboarding doesn't meet accepted definitions of torture then make your case and own the position.

    IMHO, that's almost entirely supposition.

    If you disagree, please supply credible evidence for these 'thousands of lives' saved through waterboarding. By evidence, I don't mean that which you termed [incorrectly as it happens] ... reportage.

    I ask assuming that since you made the assertion, you have the evidence to support it ... you do, don't you?
    The end justifies the means? ... I think I read that somewhere.

    If you're asking - is there ever a case for torture? I believe that there is, yes. However, I also believe, from both a moral and personal standpoint that its use, even in extremis and used to save lives - degrades those lives. Are there circumstances in which I could live with that ... almost certainly.

    My view, if a nation wants to use torture, then so be it. But if so, let it do so openly and unashamedly. Not simply say 'we don't do torture - it's illegal and an affront to basic human decency' then ... do it behind closed doors, because crimes committed in secret are stillcrimes.

    However, and I doubt you ascribe much value to Kant, but in so doing a nation must surely also accept that in intentionally and voluntarily breaching a categorical imperative, it forgoes the right to call itself moral. If a nation wants security at any cost, it must be willing to pay the ferryman.

    In defence of the US [in this case], there are many nations where such discussions or considerations as this would likely be deemed an irrelevant indulgence at best - tantamount to sedition at worst.
     
  17. faceking

    faceking Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2004
    Messages:
    7,535
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    110
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Mavs, NOR * CAL
    so does beheading....
     
  18. Guy-jin

    Gold Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    3,835
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    669
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    Oh, I get it.

    You'd rather we be more like the terrorists and less like Americans.

    Now it all makes sense.
     
  19. B_Nick4444

    B_Nick4444 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,002
    Likes Received:
    12
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    evidently, it has notched upward

    the board has just engaged in some thought that responds to the thinking of some very intelligent individuals, inter alia, Alan Dershowitz

    see, for example:

    The Raw Story | Dershowitz calls for 'accountable' waterboarding, says torture 'works sometimes'

    unless you know something the rest of us don't, beheading results in death

    unlike waterboarding

    really, just wanted to close by congratulating you guys on the quality of this thread

    pretty much followed, and hit on the points found in some very intelligent discussions

    see, for example:


    Torture (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
     
  20. B_VinylBoy

    B_VinylBoy New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    10,516
    Likes Received:
    7
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Boston, MA / New York, NY
    What's next? Shall we start including Blu-Ray box sets of "Hostel" and the "Saw" series as educational filmstrips of acceptable interrogation techniques for new US troops and call them documentaries? :rolleyes:

    I repeat... what has happened to some of intelligence on this board?!
     
Draft saved Draft deleted